It was you who made a bold and unequivocal statement that directly contradicts what Testors says about their own paints on their own website. Had you bothered to check out the website I provided, you would find that these paints are relatively new on the market -- I never contradicted what Testors says about their paint.

You say that Testors formulates their paints in a way that implies that Testors does not tell the truth about their products. I never said they don't tell the truth or that they even lie, and I'm sure that they would not give out proprietary information on their exact formulas as mixed. Of course, you probably think they only took their colors from museum quality vehicles, aircraft etc… did you ever stop to think they check their formulas on a regular basis and update their colors as needed?

All I asked was for you to provide the correspondence that you, yourself, claimed that Testors sent you. Something that would justify the statement that you made about Testors paints. What do you want? A notarized copy?

That was all.

You have now said that the website you provided, Art-Paints.com is where your information comes from:

Art-Paints::Model Master American FS

As far as I can see, Art-Paints makes no statements that Testors formulates "Model Master military paints are already premixed as weathered colors" as you stated, above. I never said Art-Paints was where my information comes from; I said it was one of many…

Again, all I asked was your evidence that this is a true statement. That's all. Nothing more than that.

But suddenly, you now want to turn this simple request into a personal attack against me.
Personal attack? You sound like the Inquisitor here… and I thought the Spanish Inquisition was long over… I guess not.

Yes, James, you've attacked me personally as well as, now, making personal insults.




Your words speak for themselves.

All I did was make a simple request: Please post the source of the information that justified the statement that you made.

My only motivation was curiosity. Where did you get the information about what you said?

You could answer, or you could not answer or, as you have chosen to do, you could make personal attacks at and insult the person who asked you a question.

How you act and behave here is entirely your choice.

As for myself, if and when you post the information, I'll be happy to read it and say "thank you for answering my question."

Until then, the only "inquisition" you're answering to is a jury of your peers here on Armorama.

Happy modeling.

Edmund,

Thank you for providing this.

Dennis, James, Mike;

I don't want to keep this going -- paint matches and 'scale effect' tend to be contentious topics yet I just want to try to calm the waters a bit. I've read through this thread and while I may have missed something, here goes:

Dennis, I thank you for your description of how you apply paint. You also wrote;
I did not find in your previous post where you are repeating yourself; other than previously stated the MM was weathered at the factory. You wrote They are easy to find, versatile, durable, reasonably accurate in color, and best of all, a little bit cheaper than the competition.

I do not think Mike was trying to state that he's any better than any other modeler. He was just asking a question and for a post from Testors.

Asking for clarification isn't necessarily criticism. I understand it can come across as such and I have learned to give the asker the benefit of the doubt, usually via a PM for clarification. I have had my share of hack-n-slash debates; sometimes I conclude "Oh, now I understand" and sometimes I conclude the moron will never get it!

Me, I don't really buy into scale effect so it doesn't matter as I, too, prefer
.

Color Scale Effects in Modeling

By Michael Benolkin

As the Cybermodeler Online color reference system continues to grow, I have uncovered a few interesting nuggets that many modelers many not realize. Many paint companies will state or imply that a given paint ‘matches’ a specified color (like RLM 70). What they don’t mention is whether that paint is directly matched to the standard or has had some degree of ‘scale effect’ applied to it. Aeromaster was one of the first companies that applied scale effect into their paint line and other companies followed suit. A more recent example is Tamiya - several of their newest RAF colors have varying degrees of scale effect applied. Since these colors were released at the same time as their 1/32 Supermarine Spitfire, some of these colors will be too light. The problem we have today is knowing which of these colors are direct matches and which have had scale effect applied. That’s where our system comes in handy.

What is scale effect?

Scale effect reduces the intensity of a color to replicate its appearance to the human eye at different distances. If you frequent airshows or outdoor air museums, you may have noticed how the colors on an aircraft fade a bit in intensity the further you get from the subject. The same applies to buildings, cars, etc. Conversely, the perceived colors intensify in hue as you get closer. There is a lot written about scale effect online but the best reference is "The IPMS Color Cross-Reference Guide" written by Dave Klaus back in 1988. Dave lays out the theory and application of scale effect in modeling quite nicely.

The scale effect theory states that viewing a 1/48 scale aircraft from 12 inches away is the same as looking at the full-scale aircraft from 48 feet away. These metrics from Dave's book still apply, though the techniques have matured a little since then. The original metrics were:
•1/32 - add 7% white
•1/48 - add 10% white
•1/72 - add 15% white
•1/144 - add 23% white

While the percentages illustrate the degree of fade that apply to darker colors, we've since learned that white usually isn't the best color for creating scale effect. If you want to fade the red in a Hinomaru using white, you'll end up with a pink Hinomaru. In fact, at certain distances, white fades as well. Rather than colors fading to white, they tend to fade toward neutral gray though they won't get there in the distances/scales we'll be working with. For a Coastal Command subject in 1/72 scale, it would be correct to add a few drops of neutral gray to the underside white to reduce the intensity of the white at scale distances.

Scale effect is a matter of personal preference. Personally, I don't believe the difference between the source color and even 10% scale effect is worth the effort. The differences are almost imperceptible once you've applied any sort of gloss coat and/or dull coat to your final paint to deal with decals or final finish. Consequently, I don't use scale effect for subjects in 1/24, 1/32, 1/35, or even 1/48 (if you use the proportions above). To put this all into perspective, take a look at the US Navy Ship Colors table with varying degrees of scale effect applied. I'd be inclined to use the 30% fade on 1/350 scale and 50% fade on 1/700 scale subjects. You can select your own preferred percentages to a given scale and we'll provide scale effect charts for most of the color standards published here to help out.

Why should you care about scale effect?

As I said above, If you model larger scale subjects like 1/24 and 1/32, I don't think that scale effect is worth the hassle. I'm not even convinced about using scale effect in 1/48th scale, but this is certainly a matter of individual preference. From 1/72nd scale onwards is the time to consider scale effect in your modeling. If you model 1/350 or 1/700 scale ships, this system really applies to the visible realism of your ship's colors. If you've been to a model contest with ship models on display, the ones that have been painted with no scale effect applied look too stark/high contrast and just don't look right.

So why should you care about scale effect? A number of paint companies apply scale effect to their paints, so if you're building a 1/24 or 1/32 aircraft, your out-of-the-bottle colors may be too faded. If you are applying scale effect to paint a smaller scale subject, once again your colors may be way off if you apply the full percentage of scale effect to the already faded colors. Since none of the paint companies indicate how much scale effect is applied to each of their colors, it is difficult to achieve an accurate rendering of your aircraft in scale. To make it more challenging, not all of the colors have scale effect applied. We'll show you what the original colors are and we'll also help match available colors to defined scale effects as well.

Another problem...

While we're helping to sort out the paints for their accuracy to standards versus "scale effect", there is another dimension to consider - decals. While the paint manufacturers are producing paints to standards and/or scale effect, most decal companies print their decals to color standards. For example, many Luftwaffe modelers really enjoy the colorful camouflage patterns on their aircraft because most of the RLM paints out there have had scale effects applied to render more color. Unfortunately, most decal companies do not apply scale effect to their markings which results in rather starkly contrasting decals. While distinctive markings should have some contrast, the same scale effect should be applied. More companies are becoming aware of the issue and some have started providing double markings on their sheets, one set to color standard, the other with scale effect applied. Does this really impact your modeling? Only if you enjoy the accurate appearance of your models.

What to do?

As I've stated in the introduction to this series, I'm providing color matches from the standards themselves with no scale effect factored into the equation. Each of the recommended paint numbers with white backgrounds in the tables fall within 2-3% of the source color in question. If there is an apostrophe next to the paint number (i.e. 7876'), then the color is within 4-5% of the source color in question. Paint numbers with yellow backgrounds are untested at present so you'll have to take the manufacturers' word that they match either the standard or have had some degree of scale effect applied.

The paints we've tested to date:
•Testors ModelMaster/ModelMaster II
•Testors Acryl
•Floquil
•Pollyscale
•Humbrol
•Tamiya Acrylics

Coming soon:
•Gunze Aqueous (Acrylics)
•Vallejo Model Air

Conclusions

There is no one right answer to your modeling preferences. Some modelers don't worry about scale effect, some do. Different modelers apply precise degrees of scale effect to their work, others simply paint straight out of the bottle. These references will hopefully help you find the right colors and understand which paints do have scale effect applied and how that will contrast with your decals that do not apply scale effect.

Good hunting!

This is straight from Mike's website... which Testors has on their Facebook website, and although it is not from Testors directly, it serves the purpose... however...

Here's the interesting bit: Many paint companies will state or imply that a given paint ‘matches’ a specified color (like RLM 70). What they don’t mention is whether that paint is directly matched to the standard or has had some degree of ‘scale effect’ applied to it.

Do you see what it says about NOT MENTIONING certain things, but Mike tested Testors MM and MM II and they fall within the ranges of FS standard and scale effect.

As I had said before, Testors will not give out their trade 'secrets and formulas", but they do assure the modeling community et al, that their colors are as reasonably accurate and true to type as possible.

Take a look at Lifecolor, they've got a very nice OD set...LC-CS11

Harald

Darren (the OP) did say he would be brushpainting. Therefore I would suggest Darren that you use Vallejo 73608 Us Olive Drab Colored Primer. The paint is primer and base coat in one, and the color has been carefully formulated to be extremely accurate and strike a perfect balance between dark and light, green and brown. It brush paints beautifully. I highly recommend it.

James,

Thanks for posting Color Scale Effects in Modeling
By Michael Benolkin. It is a fascinating theory which enhances the modeling enjoyment of many modelers.

Apologies if I missed mention of it yet I wonder if one of the reasons behind the growing trend of painting markings - hence companies like Miracle Masks - is the ability to apply scale effect for the marking, per the issue with decals mentioned in the article.

OK, politely: That's EXACTLY my point- Upon comparing my paints, after a suitable drying time, I found that "OLIVE DRAB", or any other paint color formulated for modellers' use, whether made by TESTORS, TAMIYA and/or other manufacturers' I might add, ARE lighter in tone to my sets of original WWII ANA-series and FS 595A paint chips.

Nothing I said implies that any one of you experienced modellers, or the model paint manufacturers ARE WRONG, nor did I EVER state that TESTORS SPECIFICALLY claims to formulate their paints to "scale-effect". My personal observations of what I had in front of my eyes seem to point to the obvious, whether TESTORS officially says that their paints are formulated to "scale-effect", or not.

I also set down in type which paints and paint mixtures I PERSONALLY PREFER to use in order to depict WWII US "OLIVE DRAB". I arrived at these interpretations after much actual experimentation in my workshop. TESTORS MODEL MASTER II Enamel 1787 GREEN DRAB FS 34086 straight out of the bottle is obviously not an official WWII color; however, when I mix a certain amount of FLAT or SEMI-GLOSS BLACK into my FS 34086 GREEN DRAB, I can duplicate a very close match to my three WWII ANA-613 "OLIVE DRAB" paint chips.

Again, let me say that I personally like to use this mixture as my base color. Once this dries, I like to use properly thinned FS 34086 straight from the bottle for my initial "post-shading color", subsequently lightening the original color with whatever I see fit in my post-shading process. Sometimes, I add a little bit of FS 34087, or a MEDIUM BROWN, or a few drops of RED or ORANGE to add a little bit of "warmth" to my OD mix. Whether a color is formulated for "scale-effect" or not makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to me.

The fact that I have three different ANA-613 "OD" paint chips in my possession, doesn't mean that there aren't any other "official" paint chips of the same color extant- In any case, whatever any of us chooses to use in paints, PE kits, weathering techniques or resin updates are open to personal interpretation, anyway. Why all this teeth-pulling over a mere shade of paint..?

Hi! My original post in this forum regarding all this brouhaha over "OLIVE DRAB" was posted on 9-28-13 @ 5:39AM GMT...

PS- No animosity towards anyone, or any offense taken- I only mean to share my own personal observations. Also, I've contributed (?) my thoughts and techniques with "OLIVE DRAB" in other forums as well. That, and as far as "scale-effect" is concerned, I share your opinion that it's a subjective thing, and I don't "buy into it", either.

The reference to the original colors of decals in not matching "scale-effect" is something that's always stuck in my craw- Why go through all of the fuss and bother in trying to achieve "scale-effect" when the colors in the decals themselves are represented in 1:1 scale?!? Personally, I never start any weathering process until AFTER my decals or dry transfers are set in place and/or dried and sealed.

I think everyone may have a point to "their" version of olive drab. But when it comes down to it, this is model building, a hobby, it is suppose to be fun. If it looks like olive drab to me, then it works for me. Sure I will do some research to find out what it should be, but I don't take it seriously.

AGREED! ANY paint color is subject to the individual user's own interpretation of it. I consider "pre-mixed" colors to be a good starting point, and then I go from there...

Olive drab seriously weathers , compounded with dust , dirt so no two colors will be accurate , unless the vehicle just rolled out do the paint barn . A vehicle in Europe will not be the same color of a vehicle in the Far East .

Darren,
I recently sprayed a model with Hu116 acrylic. It came out looking a lot more like faded OD than the dark green its supposed to be. It should provide you with a good base for drybrushing a faded OD over the top. Weathering will also tone it down somewhat. The Acrylics brush paint well if you prime first and then thin them with demineralysed water.
Here she is fresh out the paint shop. The photo looks a lot darker than in the flesh.


I've also used Hu155 in the past and works well as a more heavily faded OD.
All the best

Thank you, James.

That's all I was asking for. I just wanted to read it for myself.

For anyone else who's curious and who wants to read the entire article, here's the link:

Cyber-Modeler::Scale Modeler's Paint and Color Reference Directory

Click on the pull-down "General Information" menu for links to the different sections.

. I've hearted some pretty lousy things abouth Humbrol acrylics , most of it is the problems with thinning . How was your experience with it ?

Kind of off topic, but I'm not too crazy about HUMBROL either, EXCEPT for their flesh tones, which I like to use in depicting "warmer"-looking flesh colors. ACE Figure Modeller Bill Horan also likes the HUMBROL flesh tones to depict people that are out doors a lot. Who's out doors more often than Soldiers..?

If any figure modeller reading this post is interested in Bill Horan's EXCELLENT book, "BILL HORAN'S MILITARY MODELLING MASTERCLASS" from Windrow & Greene, in my opinion, has to be one of, if not THE BEST BOOK on the face of the earth concerning model figure painting. It's not cheap, but the wealth of illustrations, text and photos are worth their weight in gold! This is definitely a "MUST HAVE" book if you're a serious model figure maker/painter, or just starting in this phase of modelling. This book shows and explains this wonderful facet of modelling. What can contrast a heavy, brutish monstrosity of a tank that you've slaved over better than creating a beautifully painted figure to go with it..?

I also like to use the MODEL MASTER flesh tones, but they tend to run in "cooler" shades. To remedy this little problem, I like to dip just the tip of my red sable brush into a little bit of ORANGE or RUST-colored weathering powders to "warm" up my flesh tones where needed.

I always use a brush-painting pallet to mix my flesh tones on. This technique works really well for me in that the MODEL MASTER and HUMBROL paints will stay "flat" with the addition of the very finely ground weathering powders- you don't need much, because you're working with very small areas of flesh tones. I use the same method for painting uniforms.

LIFECOLOR makes a very nice range of colors in their "FLESH PAINT SET CS 13. However, I think that their "WWII US ARMY UNIFORMS Set 1 CS 17, and Set 2 CS 18, are OFF. Even when allowing for age and "scale-effect", (which is bunk) the 2 LIFECOLOR US ARMY UNIFORMS Sets 1 & 2 do not compare with the genuine articles in my WWII Uniform collections... But that's a whole different story which I won't go into now...

Recently, I copied down a "How To" website that an ARMORAMA contributor posted regarding ethnic skin tones. I MUST APOLOGIZE for not writing down this contributor's name, otherwise I would have gladly given him full credit for his very helpful info. It's a great little article and the color illustrations are FABULOUS!!!

Here goes: Cool Mini Or Not Forums, Ethnic Skin Tones

www.coolminisornot.com/articles/1310-ethnic-skintones

I was in a rush to run an errand before my local drugstore pharmacy closed for the day. I'm diabetic and I needed to get more insulin to carry me through to the next day. I'm just not certain that my dashes (-) are in the right place.

Enjoy!!!

Thank you gents for the differing replies. I'll go with Hu 116 as a starting point, and then drybrush a lighter shade over this. Thank you again.

Glad to help Darren. The general rule is any brand or shade of OD paint should give you what you want. Drybrushing and general mucking up will tone them down to give a used look. OD faded all sorts of shades in service and any argument is largely academic IMHO. Remember your building a fighting vehicle that was used, abused, shot at, beaten up and driven to hell and back. No paint will keep its factory finish under those conditions

Edmund, I have to be honest I'm not a huge fan of acrylic in general and will prefer to reach for enamel. But in this case it was quicker and more convenient to spray with the acrylic. Humbrol Acrylics are not the best out the pot. They are thick and a little translucent. I thin them with demineralysed water if I can, although tap water will work, and apply over a good primer. If I brush paint, a couple of coats will be needed for good coverage. If brushed carefully they will dry with no brush marks, unlike the enamels. A couple of years ago I completely hand painted a 1:72 Voodoo with Humbrol acrylics with no problems whatsoever. I found that with airbrushing they have a habit of drying in the nozzle and clogging it up which needed cleaning every few minutes. I know that some people use an additive when spraying Tamiya acrylic to prevent this from happening. I'm not sure what this is exactly, or who makes it, but it might also work with Humbrol. The big advantage was that cleaning the airbrush was quick and easy, just needed warm soapy water. I don't think they're as bad as some claim, but I'm not fully converted to them yet. I do recommend you buy a couple of pots and give them a try and see what you think.
All the best
Stephen

Just do what they did. Flat black-- add flat orange or red, lighten with a buff colour

While I am DEFINITELY a "novice" to armor modeling, I have heard this debate before. (LOL)
I have had some years of experience in Model Railroading, and the SAME thing used to rage on, over and over, about the shades of color on locomotives.

The bottom line is this.............paint is subjected to MANY outside influences. It fades, it oxidizes, it is affected by climate and weather in so many ways........
Two identical locomotives can be painted in the same shop, with the same paint, and go separate directions, into differing conditions. It would be a safe bet that brought together a year later, they would not "match".

I'm guessing the same is true (probably more so), with military equipment and armor.

After hearing all the back & forth on the "MR" forums, I came to my own conclusion that "close was GOOD ENOUGH!!"

I agree with the quoted poster.......IT'S A HOBBY!!!

Folks,
Not to throw any more fuel (or paint) on this fire, I'd like to share some 1/1 scale paint practices. My early years in the Army were spent as a tanker and S-4(supply officer)in the 11th Armored Cavalry. After 30 years service in many combat and combat support units, I retired to occasionally work in a local hobby shop. Our shop is located close to Joint Base Lewis/Mchord (JBLM) in Washington state. One of our biggest customers for Testors Model Master paints and paint pens is the Logistics and Aviation supply section at JBLM. They use it for "touch up paint" on avionics and exterior/interior surfaces of helicopters, the C-17, and other equipment. This kind of proves the U.S. Govt. gets it's paint from varied sources. In the spring of 1979, as a Cav. Squadron S-4, I scoured Germany for non-standard "forest green" paint for our squadron's vehicles because my Squadron Commander wanted to ID his tanks from others in the Regiment. When vehicles were painted at unit level, it was done with a rattle can or spray gun, and occasionally with a paint brush for smaller jobs. New touch up jobs never matched the old paint, because the old paint was "weathered" in. We also followed a practice for thinning which dated back to WWII-- the thinner of choice was MOGAS because it was plentiful, and for masking off what we didn't want painted, we used grease which came in a 5lb can. The MOGAS would often cause a color shift. But we didn't much care as long as it kept the rust out and "looked right". Thirty years of military experience taught me there are as many variations in paint schemes, shades and markings as there are people applying them. The only exception is CARC paint-- Chemical Agent Resistant Coatings, which were applied at the factory and touched up only at the depot level of maintenance-- it was never "touched up" in the field. I chuckle every time I hear modelers discussing the "right" shades of color, because in the real world, the right shade can vary quite bit-- the bottom line is-- if it looks like OD Green, it's probably right.
Very Respectfully, Russ Bucy, COL, USA (Ret)

Hi Russ,

How recognisable!
During my ( still active since 1976) army life, I have seen the same happening to our vehicles. Small areas were hand painted by the crew. Depending on their ' artistic skills' the result varied from 'invisible' to ' another clear spot' on the hull. And the influence of the climate and age on the basic color can not minimized.
All together, any military vehicle will, after some time, be off the required standards.