Hi, Was at one of the local books stores yesterday, checking out any new items in their history section and ran across a new book put out by some of the news reporters about the operations in the OIF theater. They were all color photos of various operations in Iraq. Unfortunately they didn't include too many armor photos (guess I wouldn't have been really satisifed unless the whole book was nothing but armor, but that's a different story.)

But anyway, what I noticed about the armor that was shown was the amount of dust, dirt, and general crud on them. Which only stands to reason, what with this area being just about one of the harshest regions of the world, next to the Arctic, so these vehicles would naturally be pretty messed up, weathering wise. Guess I had formed something of a wrong opinion, by looking at some of the various models over the different Net sites that have been built, that gives a sort of 'clean' look, to these AFVs, at least compared to what I saw in this book.

So what I was just wondering is, am I missing something here, modeling wise, as to just how much weathering could be, or should be, added to one of these models and still have them look basically 'correct' for these operations? Just curious. I know there is some controversy about just how much weathering could, or maybe, should be added to various W.W.II veicles, esp. some of the German stuff and still be basically historically correct. And I assume that this would also apply to other historical periods as well, depending on the circumstances the vehicles would be in. Or not.

Thanks and take care, sgrity

Sgirty,

Some guys will hate this answer but there is no right or wrong on this topic. I am based out of Baghdad International Airport and travel in about a 75 mile radius. You see wheeled and tracked vehicles in various stages of "weathering". Prior to late November and December, it did not rain and there were frequent dust storms. Everything was dirty and dusty. There was so much dust in the air some days that visibility was down to a couple of miles.

It has finally begun raining here and now everything is getting a good coat of mud on it. Tracked vehicles and wheeled vehicles are depositing a lot of dirt and mud on local roads which enevitably ends up on someone else's vehicle. Many vehicles in theatre are in the woodland camouflage scheme but are almost completely covered with dirt/mud and take on a tan appearance when the mud dries. My unit has a power washer as part of its table of organization and equipment so we have the ability to wash our equipment whenever the urge hits. There are other units that have washing equipment on hand as well. So, it isn't uncommon to see a "clean" vehicle in the company of dirty ones. Plus, obviously, when it rains all the light dirt and dust gets washed away which leaves the vehicle in somewhat of a clean state.

You also see the vehicles of units that have just arrived in theatre and they typically look pretty clean until they have been in service for a few weeks.

I hope this helps clear up this "muddy" subject.

Best regards,

Brent

sgirty,
There are different modelling types and levels of finish. ie: weathering. But I
sometimes feel that the level of weathering applied by some is a little exagerated. The AFV's
of WW2 and the ones of ODS,OIF operations have deffinately shown a big differance in
wear and tear, and general clutter. OIF, ODS, vehicles have almost always shown a BIG
amount of dust, sand ,and excessive paint fading and depleted paint finish. Because of the
harsh heat and wind blown sand storms. Much differant than the conditions in Europe during WW2. I have not seen any levels of RUST or oxidation on any in service AFV, but I
have witnessed rust and this affect on abandoned vehecles that have been desrtoyed.
I think the overall finish and presentation of DS armor pieces are quite accurate
with a large amount of dirt,sand, paint wear. And the preverbial collection of personal gear
and rations are always HUNG everywhere. This is because of the "ON THE MOVE" TAKE IT
WITH YOU" type of battle scenario. The rear area : get rest, fix vehicle, get rations. time is
almost non-existing in this area of operations.

Howdy sgtsauer,

Many thx for your 'up-close-and-personal' input on this (it seems) constantly debated subject. Most of the photos I've had access to have indeed shown significant amounts of dirt, dust, sand, etc. I think if I was patrolling the streets of Baghdad, probably the last thing on my mind would be the cleanliness of the exterior of my vehicle. My mind would be a wee bit more concerned with getting the job done, and getting home to see my family!
If you don't mind sgtsauer, it seems to me that you may be in a particularly good position to take photos of the vehicles 'over there' and share them with those of us here at Armorama! In this way maybe we can simply put the subject to 'rest', and additionally create a very useful OIF photo reference database here on the site?
Do you think you could do that?

thx in advance,

Tread.

In fact, since there seems to be a number of active soldiers in Iraq visiting the site, maybe I should start a Forum thread asking all of you for photo submissions??
Hmmmmmm, ...............give me minute to think how to do that.

BTW sgtsauer........THANK YOU for your service to our Country! Come home safe will ya!

Always work from reference photos. If the vehicle you are modeling is muddy in the photo, go for a muddy model. If it's dusty, make it dusty.

The small scale Bradley I just finished and posted was fairly heavily weathered as per photos I have seen. Think of the photo of the Merkava that has been floating around here.

I tend to weather my models a good amount. No, I don't hide mistakes with mud. But, I will give heavy pastel washes, etc. I don't do much 'paint chipping' as I think this is often overdone. There are cases, however, where it is appropriate.

I feel that people are afraid of weathering their models. The models that really appeal to me on the contest table are those that look like they are actually replicas of working vehicles. To be honest, I don't understand this pristine, showroom clean look. I think it may be because once people gget a coat of paint on their model, they are afraid to go much further.

I will spend as much time painting and weathering as I do building. That is where the real 'art' of the hobby exists.

Steve

Hi Thanks sgtsauer for that most insightful description of the AFvs operating in your area. You've provided a lot of info. for us 'civilians' to go on in the weathering and painting department. About the only thing we now have is a few photos that are released in the press and now in the new generation of books starting to come out on the operation(s) that have gone on over there. Both sources being severly limited as to what is presented. Esp. the fact that some vehicles are in the woodland colors and have been camo-ed, either on purpose or by good old Mother Nature into a more appropriate shade, so to speak.
Always good to hear from someone who is on the sharp edge of things. Be careful and be safe. Look forward to you're safe return.

Sniper. You are absolutely correct in that if there is anything connected with this hobby that could be classified as 'art' it would be the weathering process. This is REALLY what separates the basic model from a smaller representaion of history. Gives it a sense of believe-ability. I'm just now starting to find this out, as 'weathering' other than just applying a wash is something I've not done too much of as of yet. Going to be quite a challenge.

Take care, sgrity

As I recall from my days in ODS , The USAF would not let you load anything on their planes unless it was squeaky clean and weighed. So when we touched down we were Clean and Green. Later durring the build up some of our equipment would get a quick spray of Desert Tan CARC Paint. All except the soft parts of the soft skins, they stayed green. And then yes sand and dust covered everything. So you could really choose how you want to do it because on the way home we had to clean it all off again if we wanted the the Air Force to fly it back.

It will be easier than you think! Try a pastel wash and you will be amazed at the ease and the results.

Grind up some pastels of suitable color,mix with water (I add a small amount of rubbing alcohol at first to make a paste and help the pastels take the water. Make sure you don't use too much alcohol or you may affect the paint on the model.) and apply to the model. Maybe start with an earth color on the running gear.

Let the water evaporate out and you will see the results. Seal with a flat coat.

Let me know if you have more questions. This is a good method and reversable if you make an error.

Practice on a model you have already completed.

Steve

Talking of weathering, I can't imagine many model show judges giving this high marks. Or would they? Jim

If you print this pic they'd have no choice....... #:-) #:-) #:-) #:-) #:-) #:-) #:-) #:-) #:-)

Thanks Matt, perhaps an Armorama T-Shirt with that image on it would avoid any 'unfortunate' incidents at shows.... The possibilities are endless...Jim

Great to get the comments from Brent and Sgt Fubar. Too many modellers are weathering on the basis of 'this is what I think it looks like'.

All machinery must start life nice and shiny, the rate at which it gets dirty will vary on usage, and surely most machinery will get a clean/refurbish during its life.

I have been researching Chally 2 in hopes of finding an alternative to green/black. The USMC site has some pics of a Chally with a thrown track. I have no idea of where it is, the album confusingly refers to OIF and Enduring Freedom. However it is clean. It has obviously been oversprayed sand over green/black. Interestingly the overspray is over everything, and is so poorly done it is flaking off. It also appears to be a high gloss finish!

My preference, based on model racing cars which always depict a particular car at a particular event, is to find a reference photo(s) and build the model to it(them). That way I know I have a replica of something that existed , not a figment of my imagination.

Regards Dave

Hi. Jimbrae, This looks something like the photo I saw in the book the other day of the Bradley. Now the real question here in modeling to represent something like this particular set up would be: Who sells pastel chalks the size of a good 2 by 4? And would a 6 foot length of it do, or should I throw caution to the wind and go for the 8 footer? Ha!

Thanks for the photo. Great! take care, sgirty

As an old tanker, let me tell you those big boys are mud magnets. I was in Germany in late 70's. We went out on a brief excursion to a tank range and we would come back filthy..that's just riding the range roads which were heavily gravelled/semi paved. We went off road, well there would be clods of dirt as big as your head thrown up on the fenders, back deck and fist sized ones on front deck and top of turret. We used fire hoses to clean those monsters off.

Oh do I remember the days., Railoading to Graf for gunnery. Graf was always dry in the summer. Then hit the washracks. Road march to Hoenfels for manuevers and it seemed to always rain the whole time you were there. Those big war pigs would be caked in mud. Then off to the wash racks for a 10 hour wash job. Our commander wanted to find no mud whatsoever on the tank. One reason was that the Germans wouldn't let a tank with mud or dirt on it on their train car. Then when we got back to our motorpool, we would repaint the tanks inside and out . This seemed to happen every six months. I sure miss this.

Some years ago when i served in the Army as a sergeant, i n our battalion we had some BMP-1 and M48A5, and i remember this horses going out for a 5 hour ride in the country after a 2 day rain and coming back hooked with all the dirt the mud the grass and all the stuff of the nature that they could get. And then they needed 3-4 hours with the fire hoses and lots of pressured water to clean em up. So even in piece conditions relating to the terrain a vehicle moves the weathering or the look can be tottally differentt. Also i remember in a 6 day national exercise in the mountain and the forests and with real ammo firing and all this conditions that we need the whole weekend to make them clean and nice again

ALL INTERESTED MEMBERS

I JUST SUBMITTED a review of the newest Concord book on OIF ops. The book is loaded with pics, showing this wwwwhole TOPIC of discussion. Give Staff_Jim time to review it and post the review and then check it out. STAY TOONED. !!!!!

sgirty,

In response to your photograph question. I have been shooting photo's here with a 35mm camera (I wish I would have brought my digital). I thought my living conditions were going to be worse than they are thus I did not bring my digital. My 35mm camera is nothing fancy and I am far from being a skilled photographer but I have big hopes for the quality of the pictures that I have taken. My wife has said that they look good so far.

I have shot roughly 10 rolls since I have been here. I plan to shoot many, many more. Right now I have been concentrating on photo's of field modified gun mounts/additions. Overall I have taken pictures of everything from C-130's,Bradley's, 10 wheel HEMTT PLS trucks to HET's and 500 gallon water trailers. So, hopefully there will be a little something for everyone. I am in logistics so I don't have any "in combat" photo's per say. Most of my pictures are photo's of vehicles parked in a non-hostile situation but I find them of interest none the less. I did get some images on disk from other soldiers that were taken during offensive hostilities but they are not my images. If they are provided to anyone, I will disclaim them as being mine out of respect for the soldiers that stuck their neck out to take the photo's. The film I have shot has been shipped home to my wife so that I don't risk losing it or damaging it. My intention is to return to the states and convert the pictures to disk.

At that point, I was going to offer them to Jim or Sabot for inclusion in some sort of gallery. So, be patient and we will see what transpires.

If you guys are interested in access to a gallery similar to what Sgirty has mentioned, let me know and I will push it up the chain. Please don't bombard Jim with emails since he is already so busy anyway.

My email is [email protected]