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Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Early M1 Abrams Form Late Cold War.
historianmodeler
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Joined: October 27, 2013
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Posted: Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 02:50 PM UTC
How would you back date current M1 Abrams kits, A1, A2 types. Back to an early Abrams with the M68 105 millimeter gun.

Obviously hunting around for the original Tamiya M1 Abrams kit is trying both on patience and of course the wallet.

Looking at photos I've scene.

The prototypes, the initial production batches and the Improved Performance models all have several external differences compared to the A1's and A2's.

Most seem easily doable if I where to scratch build.

But how would I modify an already existing tank gun in a kit to look like the 105. And how would I remove the CITV that is found in front of the loaders hatch. That portion on the first generation tanks was flat cast steel.

I have a general image in my head for a diorama that is themed to a REFORGER exercise or something from Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising with the 11TH ACR or Harold Coyle's Team Yankee.

Ideas and photos welcomed.





18Bravo
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Posted: Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 02:58 PM UTC
There are several on eBay right now. One is currently going for $8.75. Another has a buy it now price of $22.95.
zombiehuntereky
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Kentucky, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 - 03:16 PM UTC
I am planning the same thing and was told that the early Tamyia kit would do very well.
historianmodeler
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Posted: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 - 08:32 PM UTC
What if you can't find the tamiya kit.

The one thing I would need to do so far to back date an A1 or A2 would be to remove the CITV mount.

How would i do that with destroying to much of the turret and still have a usable piece of plastic that I can use to stipple cast texturing on to.
18Bravo
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 - 08:48 PM UTC
See above. The Tamiya kit is not hard to find on eBay, and is cheap.
bankmannl
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Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Joined: October 31, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 - 08:49 PM UTC
Hi Kody,

See links:

http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tamiya-1-35-MM-224A-M-1-Abrams-Main-Battle-Tank-/131069107096?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item1e8453db98

http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tamiya-M-1-ABRAMS-MAIN-BATTLE-TANK-VINTAGE-1982-1-35-124-/271349350833?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item3f2dae81b1

http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Vintage-Tamiya-M-1-Abrams-main-battle-tank-/261356565209?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item3cda10b2d9

Good luck !



HeavyArty
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Florida, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 - 08:51 PM UTC
The original M1 also had a shorter turret, by about 5mm in 1/35 scale at the front. Also, the rear deck did not have the inspection hatches, the barrel is totally different and would be next to impossible to scratch, the left side of the hull did not have the NBC filter and associated parts, the headlight guards were straight as opposed to having a step, etc., etc., ect. It is easiet to start with the Tamiya M1 kit. Like the others have said, theer are a few on eBay now and they pop up there often.

M1s on eBay
BruceJ8365
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Kansas, United States
Joined: December 25, 2012
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Posted: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 - 02:09 AM UTC
I bought one off of eBay pretty cheap.

Backdating accurately would end up being more resource consuming that just starting off with an ebay kit.

The blow off panels, storage bins, bustle rack are some more areas that would be a pain too. The earlier ones had the full skirt with no cut out for the sprocket - and then shortly after use, most removed the retaining ring on the sprocket and manually cut out part of the skirt by the sprocket.

I bought mine because I'm a cold war fanatic and wanted to do one of the tanks that won the Canadian Army Trophy for the US. It involves some custom markings including "Bill the Cat" on the turret.
ptruhe
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Texas, United States
Joined: March 05, 2003
KitMaker: 2,092 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 - 04:23 AM UTC
I'm shedding a couple of built models, including an old Tamiya M1 for free (+ shipping). Let me know if someone is interested.
Tankrider
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Oklahoma, United States
Joined: October 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 - 08:00 AM UTC
Here is a recipe for a M1IP, using Tamiya parts from the original M1 kit as well as one of their M1A1 kits (I used the one with the mine plow, so I can use the plow on another build)

- Use the upper and lower hull from the M1 kit

- Smooth out the ridge around the Driver's hatch (be careful as the M1 kit’s plastic will be brittle and will break or crack easily if it is handled roughly… ask me how I know.)

- New driver's hatch (DML AIM kit) or improve the one from the kit

- Use the M1 roadwheels, the ones on the M1A1 have slightly different dimensions (although the wheels might be the same between the two kits)

- New T-156 tracks (Trumpeter/ATM)

- Scratchbuild the hull grill doors (I used the ones from a junked DML M1A1 AIM kit)

- Add lifting eyes to the back deck, just above the grill doors

- Skirts: Add hinge and weatherstripping details, Cut off the #7 skirt and add the hinge details, Add the cable steps to the #1 skirts (both sides)

- Add fender retaining springs to the hull

- add a bilge pump outlet on the right side of the hull

Additional optional details: replace all sponson/turret box handles with ones from TMD, add hing and retaining pins and chains to the skirts, add serial number plates to the skirts from .005 styrene or paper, add sponson floors for the rear of the hull, especially if the #7 skirts are left off of the model. No anti-skid was applied to the tanks from the factory but was applied at the unit level, so it will look anything but uniform, with lots of swirls and brushmarks.

For the turret, use the one from the M1A1 kit. Build the turret per the instructions except for the items below:

- Remove the mount for the CITV, and fill resulting hole with styrene or a chunk of the M1 kit’s turret

- Use the mantlet from the M1A1 kit and the 105mm main gun from the M1 kit – you will need to make opening for the main gun smaller with styrene strip. Scratch build the 105mm style Muzzle Reference Sensor and its retaining strap to the muzzle of the 105mm gun

- Use the M1 kit stowage boxes on the turret.

- Replace the turret rails with ones made from .030 styrene rod, brass rod or cobble the rails together using the ones from both kits, with the front halves being from the M1 kit and the rear being from the M1A1 kit. (Bruce, the 3AD CAT tanks had the original M1 turret rails and the M1A1 style bustle rack. Shoot me a PM and I can send you some pictures that show this feature)

Additional Optional details: replace machine guns, scratchbuild the Loader’s MG mount, add details to the Commander’s weapon station (lifting eyes, retaining pins & chains, electric trigger cable and manual trigger assembly), add the turret box retaining straps.


18Bravo
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Colorado, United States
Joined: January 20, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 - 08:08 AM UTC
Wow, now THAT is a recipe. It almost makes me want to add this project to an ever growing list of projects. Almost.
didgeboy
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Washington, United States
Joined: September 21, 2010
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Posted: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 - 08:25 AM UTC
Anyone wishing to build a D Co 4/8 Cav M1IP from the CAT 87 competition can contact me as that was my unit and I have some photos as well as access to the crews and am happy to help. Cheers.
DaGreatQueeg
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Napier, New Zealand
Joined: August 01, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 - 08:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have a general image in my head for a diorama that is themed to a REFORGER exercise or something from Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising with the 11TH ACR or Harold Coyle's Team Yankee.

Ideas and photos welcomed.



I did a Team Yankee themed 20mm build a while back, only OOB builds I'm afraid and I cheated and did one of the early 120mm gun tanks. Might be useful for some inspiiration though maybe?

cheers
Brent

http://houseofqueeg.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/cold-war-reforger-team-yankee-20mm-battlegroup/
Tankrider
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Posted: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 - 10:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Wow, now THAT is a recipe. It almost makes me want to add this project to an ever growing list of projects. Almost.



Thanks Rob, I guess that was a compliment... I need to finish mine and get some unpainted pics up for the "shock and awww" effect. I was envisioning a NTC Draw tank from the late 80's/early 90's, with the MERDC gray desert scheme. It was a fun build and haveing a trashed DML AIM kit assisted greatly

JC
Lonewolf7usa
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Michigan, United States
Joined: March 24, 2009
KitMaker: 312 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 - 11:15 AM UTC
Okay my two cents worth! I was stationed in Germany from 1985 to 1987 with 3rd Squadron, 2nd Cavalry and yes we were border duty and we had the early M1's with the 105mm and the lack of rear turret bustle racks. I worked, rode and supported those beasts. They had no camo paint schemes only a forest green that is matched up well with the Tamiya NATO green maybe a little lighter. All bumper numbers were flat black with no sand background. The best rendition of the early M1's is the Tamiya kit. I'm not talking IP but initial M1. We still had the sprocket rings and the cut out skirts. six months before I rotated back stateside, we got the extended bustle racks. that was it. the best build rendition I've seen was in an old Military Modeler magazine and the only real change was on the rear end. There were minor changes through out but nothing anyone with some experience can tackle.
historianmodeler
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Posted: Monday, June 30, 2014 - 08:25 PM UTC
FINALLY

I have acquired an original Tamiya M1 Abrams kit. and it was a steal.

I have decided that I'm going to do a build based around Harold Coyle's, Team Yankee.

I'm going to use Captain Sean Bannon's tank as the focus.

I'm in the process of gathering information on the units forward deployed in West Germany around 1985 to 1987, where the events of the novel are supposed to have taken place.


Team Yankee is deployed in CENTAG's area.

After reading the novel several times, I know for a fact that Team Yankee is not part of the Cavalry that the Soviets engage in Chapter 2. That would be the 11TH ACR in real life.

Team Yankee would have to be part of the 3RD Armored Division as it is later stated in Chapter 8 that Team Yankee is part of the "25TH Armored Division."

I would like to get some additional information regarding what the 3RD AD was up to during 1985 to 1987.

How did they camouflage their vehicles?

What types of tactical markings did they use?

In the novel the Mech Infantry uses old M113's, When was the 3RD AD fully equipped with Bradley's?

Photos from the time and personal insight would be most helpful.


Once I have enough reference material compiled I'm going to post build pictures of this for all to see and comment.
C_JACQUEMONT
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Loire-Atlantique, France
Joined: October 09, 2004
KitMaker: 2,433 posts
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Posted: Monday, June 30, 2014 - 09:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Here is a recipe for a M1IP, using Tamiya parts from the original M1 kit as well as one of their M1A1 kits (I used the one with the mine plow, so I can use the plow on another build)

- Use the upper and lower hull from the M1 kit

- Smooth out the ridge around the Driver's hatch (be careful as the M1 kit’s plastic will be brittle and will break or crack easily if it is handled roughly… ask me how I know.)

- New driver's hatch (DML AIM kit) or improve the one from the kit

- Use the M1 roadwheels, the ones on the M1A1 have slightly different dimensions (although the wheels might be the same between the two kits)

- New T-156 tracks (Trumpeter/ATM)

- Scratchbuild the hull grill doors (I used the ones from a junked DML M1A1 AIM kit)

- Add lifting eyes to the back deck, just above the grill doors

- Skirts: Add hinge and weatherstripping details, Cut off the #7 skirt and add the hinge details, Add the cable steps to the #1 skirts (both sides)

- Add fender retaining springs to the hull

- add a bilge pump outlet on the right side of the hull

Additional optional details: replace all sponson/turret box handles with ones from TMD, add hing and retaining pins and chains to the skirts, add serial number plates to the skirts from .005 styrene or paper, add sponson floors for the rear of the hull, especially if the #7 skirts are left off of the model. No anti-skid was applied to the tanks from the factory but was applied at the unit level, so it will look anything but uniform, with lots of swirls and brushmarks.

For the turret, use the one from the M1A1 kit. Build the turret per the instructions except for the items below:

- Remove the mount for the CITV, and fill resulting hole with styrene or a chunk of the M1 kit’s turret

- Use the mantlet from the M1A1 kit and the 105mm main gun from the M1 kit – you will need to make opening for the main gun smaller with styrene strip. Scratch build the 105mm style Muzzle Reference Sensor and its retaining strap to the muzzle of the 105mm gun

- Use the M1 kit stowage boxes on the turret.

- Replace the turret rails with ones made from .030 styrene rod, brass rod or cobble the rails together using the ones from both kits, with the front halves being from the M1 kit and the rear being from the M1A1 kit. (Bruce, the 3AD CAT tanks had the original M1 turret rails and the M1A1 style bustle rack. Shoot me a PM and I can send you some pictures that show this feature)

Additional Optional details: replace machine guns, scratchbuild the Loader’s MG mount, add details to the Commander’s weapon station (lifting eyes, retaining pins & chains, electric trigger cable and manual trigger assembly), add the turret box retaining straps.





Thanks for the recipe!!!

Wouldn't you get a better result using Dragon's M1 Panther II hull with the Tamiya M1A1 turret and Tamiya M1 parts? I was planning to go that route...

Cheers,

Christophe
seanmcandrews
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Pennsylvania, United States
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KitMaker: 561 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 01:42 AM UTC
that's my idea as well as I picked up Panther at a good price and will have the roller left for another project.

Sean
chnoone
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Armed Forces Europe, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 02:31 AM UTC
Already sanded of the "anti-skid" surface from my Panther II and the Tamiya 105' turret fits okay ... some additional detailing on the Tamiya turret will have to be done.
Have pics from the Canadian Tank Trophy which does give you the option to build the turret without changing/extending the side rails and just adding the A1 style rear bustle rack to it.

Cheers
Christopher
18Bravo
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Posted: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 03:05 AM UTC
I've got a very good walkaround of the fourth M1 ever to come off the production line if it'll help.
seanmcandrews
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 05:32 AM UTC
Hello Chris,
did you attempt to fit the Tamiya upper hull to the Dragon lower hull and it didn't work out ? That was my plan but haven't looked into it very closely yet.

Sean
chnoone
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Armed Forces Europe, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 06:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hello Chris,
did you attempt to fit the Tamiya upper hull to the Dragon lower hull and it didn't work out ? That was my plan but haven't looked into it very closely yet.

Sean



The Tamiya turret will fit the Dragon hull ... the Tamiya turret diameter being a little smaller than the hull opening ... only minor adjustments needed to get it aligned correctly.

Cheers
Christopher
ironhull
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Venezia, Italy
Joined: November 23, 2013
KitMaker: 134 posts
Armorama: 134 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 07:11 AM UTC
This is the Tamiya Abrams I reworked last year after more then 15 years on its box.ù
I make almost all new parts from plasticard and brass wire using only the following AM parts:

- Trumpeter T-156 tracks since the kit's ones are really bad.
- RB Model M2HB barrel;
- Live Resin loader M240 (converted from their FN MAG 58 but now they sell the right kit for AFV)
- a PE part for the loader MG rail from my scrapbox;

I didn't rework some areas to avoid large demage to the model. These are:
1) drive sprockets: they lack of the three holes;
2) tail lights guards: they lack of the hole on the upper side for electric cable;
3) second from the left intake grille: on all Tamiya Abrams it has a wrong horizontal shape,
4) turret blast planel: they have an incorrect shape (somebody says this not true and they are correct for the first batch of 150 tanks but none of them leave the USA)

Bye
Pierantonio
Tankrider
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Oklahoma, United States
Joined: October 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 - 08:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Here is a recipe for a M1IP, using Tamiya parts from the original M1 kit as well as one of their M1A1 kits (I used the one with the mine plow, so I can use the plow on another build)

- Use the upper and lower hull from the M1 kit

- Smooth out the ridge around the Driver's hatch (be careful as the M1 kit’s plastic will be brittle and will break or crack easily if it is handled roughly… ask me how I know.)

- New driver's hatch (DML AIM kit) or improve the one from the kit

- Use the M1 roadwheels, the ones on the M1A1 have slightly different dimensions (although the wheels might be the same between the two kits)

- New T-156 tracks (Trumpeter/ATM)

- Scratchbuild the hull grill doors (I used the ones from a junked DML M1A1 AIM kit)

- Add lifting eyes to the back deck, just above the grill doors

- Skirts: Add hinge and weatherstripping details, Cut off the #7 skirt and add the hinge details, Add the cable steps to the #1 skirts (both sides)

- Add fender retaining springs to the hull

- add a bilge pump outlet on the right side of the hull

Additional optional details: replace all sponson/turret box handles with ones from TMD, add hing and retaining pins and chains to the skirts, add serial number plates to the skirts from .005 styrene or paper, add sponson floors for the rear of the hull, especially if the #7 skirts are left off of the model. No anti-skid was applied to the tanks from the factory but was applied at the unit level, so it will look anything but uniform, with lots of swirls and brushmarks.

For the turret, use the one from the M1A1 kit. Build the turret per the instructions except for the items below:

- Remove the mount for the CITV, and fill resulting hole with styrene or a chunk of the M1 kit’s turret

- Use the mantlet from the M1A1 kit and the 105mm main gun from the M1 kit – you will need to make opening for the main gun smaller with styrene strip. Scratch build the 105mm style Muzzle Reference Sensor and its retaining strap to the muzzle of the 105mm gun

- Use the M1 kit stowage boxes on the turret.

- Replace the turret rails with ones made from .030 styrene rod, brass rod or cobble the rails together using the ones from both kits, with the front halves being from the M1 kit and the rear being from the M1A1 kit. (Bruce, the 3AD CAT tanks had the original M1 turret rails and the M1A1 style bustle rack. Shoot me a PM and I can send you some pictures that show this feature)

Additional Optional details: replace machine guns, scratchbuild the Loader’s MG mount, add details to the Commander’s weapon station (lifting eyes, retaining pins & chains, electric trigger cable and manual trigger assembly), add the turret box retaining straps.





Thanks for the recipe!!!

Wouldn't you get a better result using Dragon's M1 Panther II hull with the Tamiya M1A1 turret and Tamiya M1 parts? I was planning to go that route...

Cheers,

Christophe



Christophe,
I guess that I could have taken that route but I had several Tamiya M1 & M1A1 kits, so I decided to keep it in the Tamiya "family." Good luck on you efforts and hopefully we will see your efforts here.

John
tanknick22
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United States
Joined: February 19, 2009
KitMaker: 1,139 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 - 09:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Here is a recipe for a M1IP, using Tamiya parts from the original M1 kit as well as one of their M1A1 kits (I used the one with the mine plow, so I can use the plow on another build)

- Use the upper and lower hull from the M1 kit

- Smooth out the ridge around the Driver's hatch (be careful as the M1 kit’s plastic will be brittle and will break or crack easily if it is handled roughly… ask me how I know.)

- New driver's hatch (DML AIM kit) or improve the one from the kit

- Use the M1 roadwheels, the ones on the M1A1 have slightly different dimensions (although the wheels might be the same between the two kits)

- New T-156 tracks (Trumpeter/ATM)

- Scratchbuild the hull grill doors (I used the ones from a junked DML M1A1 AIM kit)

- Add lifting eyes to the back deck, just above the grill doors

- Skirts: Add hinge and weatherstripping details, Cut off the #7 skirt and add the hinge details, Add the cable steps to the #1 skirts (both sides)

- Add fender retaining springs to the hull

- add a bilge pump outlet on the right side of the hull

Additional optional details: replace all sponson/turret box handles with ones from TMD, add hing and retaining pins and chains to the skirts, add serial number plates to the skirts from .005 styrene or paper, add sponson floors for the rear of the hull, especially if the #7 skirts are left off of the model. No anti-skid was applied to the tanks from the factory but was applied at the unit level, so it will look anything but uniform, with lots of swirls and brushmarks.

For the turret, use the one from the M1A1 kit. Build the turret per the instructions except for the items below:

- Remove the mount for the CITV, and fill resulting hole with styrene or a chunk of the M1 kit’s turret

- Use the mantlet from the M1A1 kit and the 105mm main gun from the M1 kit – you will need to make opening for the main gun smaller with styrene strip. Scratch build the 105mm style Muzzle Reference Sensor and its retaining strap to the muzzle of the 105mm gun

- Use the M1 kit stowage boxes on the turret.

- Replace the turret rails with ones made from .030 styrene rod, brass rod or cobble the rails together using the ones from both kits, with the front halves being from the M1 kit and the rear being from the M1A1 kit. (Bruce, the 3AD CAT tanks had the original M1 turret rails and the M1A1 style bustle rack. Shoot me a PM and I can send you some pictures that show this feature)

Additional Optional details: replace machine guns, scratchbuild the Loader’s MG mount, add details to the Commander’s weapon station (lifting eyes, retaining pins & chains, electric trigger cable and manual trigger assembly), add the turret box retaining straps.




every pic I seen of a IPM1 had the original chevron tracks
 _GOTOTOP