Hey all .
How are the spare track links held to the turret of WW2 german tanks ? On most of the models I see there is no visible mechanical attachment .
Were these field fitted and varied by location etc .

I'm about to start a Panther G , steel-rim , --- what's the short answer on Zimmerit ? Were most late Panthers Zimmerit'd or ?

Thanx -- Uru

Keith;

Hi!

In general, there were about two (2) usual methods for mounting spare track onto turrets on WWII German tanks...

Links could be hung on simple hooks welded to the turret - seen on the King Tiger and Jagdtiger and on some Panthers - where the links are usually single or doubles and horizontal (but a longer "mini-run" of several links could be hung with links oriented vertically, or hung with links horizontal...)... OR

In the case of many Tiger I, links were held vertically in a two-part clamp with a plate with a peg at the bottom to stand the link on, and a spring-loaded plate with pin to clamp down on the top end.

All the above of course refer to actual SPARES intended to be removable for us on the tank...

Some tanks had "spare" links welded on as additional armor - but these don't count as real spare.

Spare track links on Panthers were not hung on the turret when P left the factory - new Panthers had specific racks for horizontal links mounted on the sides of the hull as standard equipment. But there were some later-war P with links on the turret - and these include A, D, and G tanks. I think all of these were later-war tanks with track-hangers added on by field shops or the crew...

Google Panther tank and dig around in the myriad photos and see what pops up -

See this nice pic of a relic Panther A with clearly-visible post-factory added hangers (pic link posted for discussion purposes only):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/panzer_king_tiger/2008%20Panther/6PantherOct2008.jpg

And see this one for an example of such a mounting "in action" on an "A" (image link posted for discussion purposes only):

http://www.ww2shots.com/gallery/d/19930-1/german+panther+tank+Captured+by+russians-ww2shots-army.JPG

Note that these hangers may have utilized a bar or rod passed thru rings or such to retain the track.

Just to throw some fun your way... here's a pic of a late-production D (with later commander's cupola but still the "letter-box" MG flap on the glacis) - with post-factory zimmerit, fully-loaded hull-side track hangers, spare wheel (a rarish thing on Panthers!) AND a full compliment of added turret-side tracks and hangers! What a neat composite beast, this (image link posted for discussion purposes only)!

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/tanks-medium/pzkpfw-v-medium-tank/ausf-d/pzkpfw-v-ausf-d-panther-medium-tank-01.png

So, yes, you CAN do some track-hanging on Panther turrets - but scout pics to get a good grip on the way things looked.

Hope this helps!

Bob

Keith;

Hi, again. About zimmerit on Panthers...

Bear (as versus some big kitty, like Panther ) in mind that the first Panther - ausf D - were almost all produced BEFORE Sept 1943 - when factory zimmerit became the rule. So, of some ca 850 or so D, only a tiny handful got factory zimm. Some D, as indeed seen in a pic-link I posted above about track hanging, were later zimm'd by rear-area shops or whenever the tank was sent back to Nibelungenwerke for rebuilding. (Nibelungenwerke would zimm a non-zimm'd tank which was sent in for rebuild and refurbishment.)

Ausf A, on the other hand, were mostly produced between Sept 1943, when factory zimm started up, and Sept 1944, when factory zimm applications stopped. So, most ausf A Panthers had factory zimm. Very few would have been zimm'd at Nibelungenwerke if sent for refurb, as they already wore the stuff.

Ausf G Panthers started production during the factory-zimm period, so earlier-production Panther G would have factory zimm. G produced after AUG 1944 would never have zimm, as they did not get factory coats, and Nibelungenwerke would not have applied zimm to any G during any putative refurb.

NO G likely ever saw or had any sort of "crew or field-applied zimm" - owing to all earlier G already being factory coated, and later G being in the post-zimm period.

Sum up:

VERY FEW D with factory zimm, some with refurb (Nibel...) zimm, maybe a few with "field shop zimm".

MOST A with factory zimm, a very few with refurb (Nibel...) zimm, and probably "2 - maybe 3" at most with "field zimm".

Earlier G with factory zimm. FEW G with refurb (Nibel...) zimm, and probably NO G with "field zimm". Later G = NO ZIMM.

NOTE on zimm patterns - assembly plants applied standard patterns. Patterns changed during the application period. "Refurb" tanks from Nibelungenwerke had a different pattern applied there. This means that you may want to decide "what your case is - factory or refurb or "field job"" and determine from photos what pattern(s) would be legit - providing of course that you are that concerned with absolute accuracy!

Cheers!

Bob

Awesome , Bob , Many thanks .
I'm a newb to German armor so I want to be sure to be as accurate as possible .
I picked the late G steel wheel as I surmised from what I'd read that those tanks were the least likely to have the Zimmerit.
I'm going to do a dio with a 251 and 222 .

So -- I was intending to paint the 251 and Panther in the ambush ( they're the IR versions ) but present the 222 in the panzer grey .
Sound right ? or very plausible ?

Thanks again for all the info and links.
Keith

Keith;

Given as you are seeking to depict vehicles in later 1944 or even early 1945, I would suggest that 222 really wants to also be in some dunkelgelb-based scheme; all front-line (and many - probably most - rear-area and behind-the-lines security forces) vehicles were "required to be base-coated in dunkelgelb", per the regulations of ca MAR 1943, when dunkelgrau was officially phased out. Any of these vehicles may be straight dunkelgelb - factories and refurbishment plants rolled stuff out wearing mostly straight dunkelgelb as of April, 1943 through DEC 1944 and generally out to Mar or APR 1945, and the brown and green camo was mostly applied by crew and/or shops in rear areas of the fronts.

Various folks have argued that some stuff produced in early 1945 had an "olive green" as a base-coat under a tricolor scheme, and others have argued that very late war production (which certainly precludes that 222...) MAY have come out with some red-oxide primer showing and little or no dunkelgelb basecoat...

I'm no expert and am pretty ambivalent to both the "olive green" and "exposed red-oxide" claims - probably a few of each did hit the streets, but I don't have much strong evidence pro or con.

With WWII German stuff, it's usually pretty safe to posit that "most stuff produced after MAR 1943 through to May 1945 probably had a dunkelgelb basecoat" - and allow that some few had something different. But very unlikely to be painted in dunkelgrau after mid 1943.

Cheers!

Bob

Well , good . I like the dark yellow better myself , lol .
Thanks again ,
Cheers ,
Keith

Here it looks like they took em from the sponsons and Somehow plastered em on the turret ( with a cook-pot ( I think ? ) for added security ) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-722-0406-06A,_Frankreich,_Panzer_V_%22Panther%22_im_Gel%C3%A4nde.jpg

I can never see the attachment --- I assume here ; two hooks gripping the top track pin ?. But do they slap against the turret ?
I need to scratch it like the real deal .
I'd weld a stud at the bottom with a wingnut/fender washer set-up to hold em against the side

And -- does that Panther have Zim or not ?.
that's another thing I have problems discerning .

I assume the track links are heavy enough to hang securely without a lower or additional anchor ?

Hi Keith... If you read the caption at the bottom of the picture it says summer 44, so yes it should have zimmerit. One type of holder for spare tracks I've seen on panther turrets were the same as those on the sides of the hulls .. I remember they were said to be HJ panthers ..Here are a couple of pictures of the more common hangers..



Rick

Bob

After 1,700+ posts, if you aren't an expert, I'd like to see who is . . . .

Regards

Rob

Thank you , gentlemen .

Rick , those hooks are Exactly what I pictured , ha ha .
Cool .
Thanks much . I could only find smooth turret sides or track already mounted . Or studs welded to the sides that I couldn't really square with mounting track ...

So the mass of the track links is enough to secure them onto the hooks ? there's not a lower connection or something ?

My concern with the Zimmerit :
The Tamiya kit I'm using is Zimless so I need to display it accurately zimless 'cause I don't want to get into PE or putty etc ........not this cat .

If you want to do a G without zimmerit you can but they usually have the crew compartment heater which was introduced at about the same time the zimmerit was stopped..but I guess there might be a few out there without the heater.. If ever you really want to do a zimmerited panther, Dragon do an early G with it molded on.

Rick

Keith, in answer to your question, the links weigh in at about 55lbs. each, more than enough to keep them from bouncing around much.

When using the studs you mentioned, there'd be a retainer plate with a wingnut or nut to secure them.

Keith;

This one is probably an early production G - and yes, it does have the zimm (you can see zimm on the rear boxes). The tracks on the turret are hung on this kitty using those hooks welded to the top of the turret, like as seen in the pics posted by Richard C. NOT using the post-and-tie-rod type clamp as seen in the "relic pic" I posted above.

These track-sets would not need nor have had any bottom device to secure them - one might suppose that they could have shuffled and clanked a little whenever the kitty was roaring along, but... 1) those links were pretty heavy, as Bob AFV noted - so each set seen here was maybe 300+ lbs of steel, 2) they rest at incline on the turret side, so have no free swing (they must lift off the side against gravity in order to swing back down), and 3) the Panther was reputed to actually ride quite smoothly, owing to its weight and suspension system...

The basin was probably the crew dish-wash pot! Mustn't leave those pots, pans, and mess-kits all dirty and stuff, lads!

Richard's pics, and in particular the lower one (number "134") are probably late G and 134 is clearly post-zimm. This would of course support a notion that various hook and hanger styles persisted and were applied right up to the end. The "134" pic is particularly cool, IMO, as it shows one of those rather rare "disc" camo-jobs on a Panther.

As noted by others here, later G came along with the crew heater tower. But installation of this was not completely uniform, and some post-AUG 1944 G (all G after AUG 1944 were non-zimm) lacked the tower. You have some "room" as to how exactly you fit your kitty.

IF you do want a zimm'd G, by all means, do the Dragon G with zimm kit. VERY cool kit, that, IMHO! I'm about to use one to do a mid-1944 "G-FLIVO".

@Rob W.;

"Expert?" On this stuff (let alone on anything)? Hardly! What a delightful hoot! I WISH! There ARE some pretty informed chaps around these boards. I read a bit, look at ba-zillions of pics, and try to pay attention to what folks say and write, in the hopes I might eventually learn enough to contribute and help my fellow newbs along! But thanks for the thought!

Keith; Post your kitty project as you go - I look forward to seeing what you do with all this blather!

Bob

Very good .
I'm squared away on the track link stowage now .For this Panther , anyways ...

What does the crew compartment heater assembly look like? , please . Sounds easier than zimmerit !

I didn't think that '131' was a Panther turret ( hey , I've only been studying these things a few days ,,see now --yes.. ) but was intrigued with the 'disc' camo .
At first I thought I might be looking at shadows from some type of camo-netting or something - but nope !

I definitely will start a WIP thread next week ---She arrives Monday ( with a whole lotta other fun stuff to distract me, hee hee ).

Thanks as always for the help ---- I'll have some more questions for sure as I progress with her and the 222 and 251/20.
It'll be a bit before I get into the crews but uniform accuracy will be important also , of course .

Keith
.. .. What is the " FLIVO " ?

The heater assembly can be seen in the first picture Richard posted. It's the raised box on the left rear deck.

The disc camo was a late war variation.

The few steel-rimmed Panther G's that were photographed had the early turret/mantlet (without the mantlet chin of late Panther G's). Apparently their experiment with Tiger wheels occurred much earlier than when the Panthers were used in combat (during the BoB), so maybe they also had zimmerit applied.

As an addendum to my previous post, there does not seem to be a clear cut answer. I just image Googled 'Panther G steel rim', which I should have done before, and saw several various Panther G's, some with chin mantlet and some without; and some with full set of steel-rim wheels, and some with a mixed set of steel-rim and rubber-rim; and some definitely without zim, and some with. Anything goes!

Hi Biggles... not having the chin mantlet doesn't make a turret early or late ...One of the firms (I think DB)never changed over to the chin mantlet, so you can see very late Gs without them.. I can check if you need to know which firm it was..

Rick

Keith;

In answer to your Q on the "FLIVO"...

The Germans caught on from near the "get-go" to the notion of having command tanks - and several marks were built up as "BefehlsWagens" or Befehlspanzers (we see Pz 1B and Pz III in the "classic mode" of Befehlspanzers - those with modified turrets and generally dummy main-guns, and Pz 38(t), Pz IV, Panther, and Tiger I as gun-tank Befehlspanzers with increased radio equipment).

From ca 1939, the Germans also increasingly adopted "combined-arms" tactics where infantry, artillery (supported in tank form by "Beobachtungspanzer" or (artillery forward-observer) Observation tanks), armor, and air all coordinated in an action. The Germans "invented" forward-aircraft-control (FAC) in armor units - these "FAC" tanks were called "FLIVO" (a German abbreviation for Flugzeug...) - and were typically externally very similar to Befehlspanzer. There were Pz I, Pz III, and Panther "FLIVO" in service at various times in the war. Other armored vehicles, including various armored-car types, also served as FLIVO.

Some 300+ Panthers (1 D, some A, mostly G) were built as BefehlsPanther, and some of these further enhanced radio-wise to be FLIVO. BefehlsPanther and Panther-FLIVO were identified by presence of additional antenna for the added radios, but otherwise pretty much like any other Panther, and carried the same guns.

CyberHobby "white box" series includes a late-war G BefehlsPanther with standard rod, star, and tall mast antennae. The tall mast antenna actually was usually a FLIVO feature, and generally required the vehicle to be parked-up for use.

As we know, Panthers produced between SEP '43 and SEP '44 - including all G Befehls and FLIVO made in that period - had factory zimm. So... to model a G FLIVO in mid or later '44 calls for having a zimm'd G... Enter Dragon's pre-zimm'd G - just what this doctor ordered!

Given as we become increasingly aware of the almost chaotic mixing of characteristics seen in Panthers over their years of service - zimm or not, chins or not on turrets, spare tracks or not on turrets, spare wheels or not (turrets and hulls), crew heaters or not, gas-can racks or not, combos of turret models with different hulls, steel wheels all or some or none, 16 and 32-bolt wheels, storage boxes or not, various antenna systems, IR gear or not, anti-air armor or not, etc. etc. etc. - YOU have a lot of options and CHOICES!

My counsel to all when pondering what you want to do with your kitty is to browse many pics and find the features-combos which most appeal to you! IF it's in a real photo, you GOT IT, and it really doesn't matter a whole lot what some pundits or (non-, in my case)experts might say about what "should be" or "cannot be" on a given Panther! There were certainly standard models and standard arrays of stock equipment and features, but Panthers appear to have fully-developed "individuality" in use from 1943 through 1945!

Cheers!

Bob

Well then !
That settles it Bob .

I'm putting a ray-gun on mine !

Har !

Seriously though , what was the crew heater ? --an additional heat exchanger ( heater core ) mounted on the engine deck or something ? I read the crew is separated from the engine compartment by a heavy fire-wall .
They pumping hot water , yeah ?

I certainly can't really tell much from the pic-What all is in the 'Box' there
I bet there is a PE set that has it .
The Tamiya PE for the engine deck screens is coming with this Panther , though I've read they are not the best .
I'll know Monday . ..heck , they were only 5-6 bucks.

Cheers ,
Keith

Keith, check this thread out for heater info:
http://armorama.com/forums/193918&page=1

Wait! Ray-guns? Me too! I So So WANT a ray-gun on a big steel kitty! But, as I'm a tad anal and stuff, it has to be the RIGHT ray-gun. PLEASE post the ref pic! I'll get right onto this rare mod, too!

Bob

@ AFV Bob , excellent , thanks for the info .
@ Panzerbob , hee hee.
But about guns -- earlier you mentioned the dummy main guns on the command tanks . This is to disguise them from the enemy ? ...I'd shoot at everything , so there !

My Big Box of Styrene has made it to Houston Fed Ex ! ( I'm just south )
It's scheduled for Monday delivery --- they need to get all those Christmas Gifts delivered first ! Oy!

Cheers ,
& a PS : I've been asking around but haven't gotten a response yet --- Do you guys know where the "Braille" in Braille Scale comes from ?
Just curious

Keith