Just a little gripe, but I do wish people would remember the function of RRB. If I post there, and I don't post there often enough, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS ... What I have a big problem with is this 'Mutual Admiration Society' which seems to have developed. If someone sticks a model of any sort up on this forum, they are (in 99 cases out of 100) looking for Constructive comments, suggestions or even criticism. RRB is not working at all as it was envisaged. Now in fairness, it could be that people are frightened of getting 'slammed' for their work, others, seem to be simply 'posting for rank' and it is damned obvious that their comments are simply a regurgitation of what went before..... JIm

I agree with Jim, I am quite frequent in posting in RR, and I enjoy people saying nice things about my models, (I mean, I am okay modeler. hehe), but more importantly, I like people point out what I can do to make it better, there are various time in the past, the comment was really helpful, i.e. I corrected the sag on my Tauch, redo the tail fin on the f14, etc, etc.

We had actually talked about this in the staff forum a while back. I think the action-items got kind of lost in the myriad of other events. If I recall we agreed that Ken could likely use more help in that forum. What I need is someone who will dilligently press members to make constructive comments or none-at-all.

We also talked about changing the top forum message to be more clear about this requirement to give constructive comments.

Cheers,
Jim

I remember that thread, Jim. However, I see the RRB as losing a bit of its importance...Jim

Jim,
Sorry I don't understand that remark.

I will repeat.... What I need is someone who will dilligently press members to make constructive comments or none-at-all.

Thanks,
Jim

I don't mean it any negative way, simply that it could have a bit more bite, In fairness, people are very well-mannered on this site and don't want to upset people. One has to be careful not to (for example) put younger modellers off for example.

The person who would work on RRB, would have to be very tactful, there are a few people who could do it, but would be hard work.....Jim

Agree strongly. A lot of the models I've seen at the RRB are practically complete models. And the posts there are "sugar coated" (e.g. "Great build!" etc. etc. ad nauseum) - so much so that some threads just become too... "diabetic." I thought that the RRB was supposed to be a review-while-I'm-building-my-model board, not a look-at-my-almost-finished-model-and-what-do-you-think-of-it board. If it's practically done, I suggest posting it at the Armor, Aircraft, Ship or appropriate forum - but not at the RRB. It's almost as if the "glowing reviews" posts are there to beef up one's post rate to attain a higher rank. That, plus now I dunno if someone is really being sincere in posting that "glowing review" or merely "patronizing." It is this reason why I now very rarely look at the RRB - I'm just a bit *tired* with the "very positive posts." I'd rather post my "glowing review" in a more appropriate forum when the product is done.

I hope that no one takes this post as any offense, just merely an observation, a "constructive critique" of the RRB.

GI, I think you have hit the nail on the head, why don't you volunteer as a moderator for RRB?, Jim is still looking for one.....Jim

Thanks for the suggestion Jimbrae, but unfortunately, I don't have the time (both working and studying in law school) nor the "weight" to be a moderator. I reckon there are far more qualified people out there who could be a moderator at the RRB.

I happen to like viewing people's in progress shots... (really enjoying James Tainton's Nashorn BLOG on Tracklink)... I also like to compliment someone's kit when they do a nice job... I understand the purpose of giving Constructive Criticism.. and the need for people to be receptive to it (which most people are)...

But you also have the case of modelers who are just starting.. and I think most 'mature' modelers that notice this, still will give that person a "Great Job" to try and keep them motivated... I think most times people recognize these types of kits and post appropriately, but now, your saying NO GO... I don't know.. I enjoy the RRB and the comments... Hate when I see some people who no matter how awesome a kit is.. will nitpick to heck, because they feel like they have to find something wrong (or they would not be posting correctly to the RRB board)..

Constructive points are helpful (Tank Carl, telling me to use flattened Brass Wire on my Luchs, Someone telling me I don't have enough sag on my JagdPanther Tracks)... But the positive comments are also helpful (give you a boost when your down on your modelling skills)... I don't see how the Positive posts are "Hurting" the board...

I like looking at others works in the RRB, but I rarely post any replies there. I've been the target of several members if I don't just say, "GREAT JOB, SUPERB WORK."

I only post there if some technique the builder used catches my eye and I'd like to know how he/she did it. Then it is in the form of a question, "How did you..."

I do answer questions if someone in the thread asks something in particular that I may know the answer to.

For what it's worth, I think it is hard to sift through the "GREAT JOB" posts to find the one or two with useful constructive criticism like the various examples already listed. But, I see the danger of the RRB that just picks at someone's very hard work because posters don't think the color is right.

I had volunteered to help Ken, but I don't think I'm that well liked by the DSB/Friends of Uday crowd that still reside here.

I think the assistance provided to csch in his Sherman M4A1 75mm thread is the type of help that the RRB was intended to provide.

I don't know about the second Half of the statement...But IThink most of the First half.....The DSB at least the One's I Chat With Still like/ Respect you. I know You've tried to Awnser almost every Question I've thrown Your way. And you know I'm grateful for that!!!!!

I volunteered to add that to my Moderation duties too - but I think Jim would really like to spread out the workload and get other members to help out here. Surely someone would like to aid Ken in moderating the RRB...

Gunnie

Gunnie,
Indeed I have recieved several offers from non-staff members and will be giving it some thought. Perhaps this would be a good forum to have somewhat "overloaded" with moderators. So maybe you will all get the job of helping Ken out.

Cheers,
Jim

I'll gladly help out with the moderation duties, if that is what Ken wants. I am on the site everyday, and basically check out every thread that gets posted to the RRB anyway.

I guess I think that dustoff said it pretty well. I have very limited knowledge on certain aspects of modelling, such as modern armor and aircraft - yet when a friend of mine posts a pic of a model that I know via the chat room that they have put alot of work into - I feel a "nice job on the weathering" or "that effect you achieved on the wheels", etc. is appropriate. Especially if i have talked with the individual through PM's and chat, to know that they were gonna try a new technique, or were struggling with a certain aspect of the kit. This is especially true if I don't know enough about the subject matter to say what needs to be corrected or not.

Are we saying that if you can't see anything that needs to be fixed - we shouldn't say anything at all? I hope that isn't the case. There are many fine models that get posted in the RRB that I honestly can't find something to nit-pick - maybe others can, but some subjects are kinda foreign to me. Am I supposed to not say anything? hehe Kinda like the opposite of the phrase, "if ya can't find anything good to say, don't say anything." I don't want the RRB to be a place where the only comments tolerated are the ones where people point out mistakes.

For the record - when I post my work on the RRB, I am looking for people to point out things that I might have missed.... thebear did that on my last PzKpfw IV post, and I truly appreciate that. However, I must say that I also enjoy the postive feedback I get as well, it helps me decide if an effect I tried to achieve worked or not.

Keep in mind that ANYBODY that wants to post a constructive criticsm comment to ANY post in the RRB can do so. If Jimbrae (and anybody else for that matter), would like more constructive comments - by all means, feel free to post them, nobody is stopping you. I don't think it should be up to the moderator to be the only one doing so.

On a side note - we should ALL take great care to not start labeling people that DO post constructive criticsm "rivet counters", etc...... That tends make people shy away from saying exactly what they think about a particular build. Others in this thread have said as much.....

This is just my 2 cents worth on the subject - I hope I didn't offend anybody by saying my piece.... no offense was intended towards anybody.

Later-
Jeff

I am having a hard time understanding this thread. Do we want the RRB to become a "if u can't say something critical don't say anything" type of place. There are sites out there for you if you like that. I have always liked the fact that Jim has created a nice friendly/positive site, where there isn't a crowd of people waiting to tear you apart if your model isn't up to someones particular skill level. And let's be honest, alot of us don't have the skill or knowledge to be finding mistakes etc in others models. When I look at something of Gunnie's or SS-74, Envar or plasticbattle they have done more to their kit then I would have ever drempt of, so what's the harm in saying it looks good?!

Yes - I think "overloading" the RRB Forum will help out in the beginning. I think a great many members on Site are apprehensive in really participating in a mode that comes across as "rivet counting". Just the label and mentality is enough to kill participation - for those who do the labeling and those who don't want to get labeled. Having a band of moderator brothers might make the duty moderating the RRB more attractive.

I'm not advocating a "wolf pack" here though...

A group of moderators helps deal with not everyone being on the same level when it comes to modeling experience or familiarity with subject matter - lessening the notion that you've got to be an "expert" to share constructive commentary.

Gunnie (I really like this new emoticon!)

I guess I regret having started this thread It's not that I want everyone to feel obliged to make nice comments, nor to make nasty ones. RRB could be one of the most important forums on Armorama, if people understood the criteria for commenting a bit better perhaps the thread would become more vibrant... I agree that it is an incredibly useful area for asking questions about how something was done or the research that was carried out or even the basic kit itself. Perhaps I was overreacting a bit, if I was I apologize unreservedly...Jim

Heh heh - no - I believe the idea here has always been to engage more of the talent pool of members we have here on Site. I'm really happy jimbrae initiated the thread.

The RRB comes across as a "Sunshine Club" where any and all submitted stuff gets "fluffed" by buddies. The RRB was meant as a way for a modeler to get some real commentary and help in their modeling effort. That happens, for sure, but it is very difficult to wade through all the congratulatory posts and pats on the back.

Yes - there is great value and a time where these pats on the back are needed and wanted.
Yes - there are times that buddies are going to post and congratulate each other because they've been following each other's progress. These are good things that are going to continue to happen.

But - what also has happened in the past is some "retaliation" when members point out or make suggestions contrary to the theme going on in the thread. The dreaded "rivet counter" tag comes out in chat rooms or even in other threads - like carrying over bad feelings. That is what defeats the whole purpose of the RRB in the first place. What appears to happen over time is that only the buddies post models there and the appearance of the "Sunshine Club" arises.

Okay - so it's friendly and what's wrong with that? Other places on the 'Net are certainly less-than-friendly for modelers...

The thought is, and I believe this strongly, is that many other potential posters shy away from submitting a model because they sincerely don't think they're going to get a good look and review of what they're trying to do. For some, the RRB is useless for what it was created to provide in the first place.

I firmly believe you can be quite frank in your observations and still be the most friendly Site on the 'Net. I do honestly believe that most are really looking for an honest opinion and help with growing their technique and skill base. The "Sunshine Club" just doesn't do it for a lot of modelers, that's all...

My big wish here is that more become attracted to the RRB and post photos of their projects - while - they can still make corrections or try out a tip a fellow modeler gives them. I really hasten to point out to a modeler how they could have fixed a decal silvering problem or track alignment issue when they're showing a completed model. That comes across as "rivet counting" to some people, and is unfortunate...

Gunnie

I think it has a lot to do with the ego of the modelbuilder too... If he thinks it sucks he'll have no problem listening to reasonable suggestions. But, if he think's he is awesome...

The problem is, other people who didn't build the model will come to the modelbuilder's defense... not pretty.

jrnelson:
I think it's a great place to discuss techniques used, references, colors, materials, etc. Not necessarily to tear up someone's hard work or to point out mistakes.

jimbrae:
Great point here Jimbrae. I think it is one of our most valuable assets. Don't apologize for starting this thread. We had discussed helping Ken out, he asked for help, a couple of us volunteered, and then we had the troll problem and the issue took a back seat and was forgotten.

matt:
Then I was misinformed that people were tired of defending me in the chat areas. Every time I've popped in the chats, the chatters were members of the DSB.

"Pop" in as often as you can, the chat group seems like a pretty knowledgable modeling bunch with expertise across a broad range of skills and topics. :-)

Rob I too am a member of the dreaded ( #:-) ) DSB and frequent the Msn chat room. The times that I have seen you there I have enjoyed your input to the chat and speaking to you myself. You do a lot for the site and I appreciate it even though I do not say so very often. Forget the few and listen to the majority even if they are silent!

On a more serious note I have e-mailed Jim offering my services to be a moderator of the RR forum. I did this just after Jinbrae posted this thread.