Was this just an accident or is it actually possible to thin Vallejo Model Air with Tamiya X20A thinner? I just experimented a bit and put a few drops of VMA into a plastic cup and then added some X20A to it. I was shocked to see that the paint wasn't at all disturbed by the thinner. In fact, the paint flowed amazingly well with no congealing whatsoever. It thinned it so well I was tempted to try it out in the airbrush but didn't. Have any of you been using X20A with Vallejo?
This open up great possibilities for me if this actually works in the brush as the X20A has some retarder in it and it may help with my constant clogging issues. I tested Vallejo's primer as well with excellent results.
Rob
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Vallejo Model Air thinned with X20A
GALILEO1
Joined: April 18, 2006
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Posted: Monday, March 03, 2014 - 10:24 AM UTC
SgtRam
Contributing Writer
#197
Joined: March 06, 2011
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Posted: Monday, March 03, 2014 - 10:37 AM UTC
I have used in the Vallejo Primer, but not the Air paint. Might have to try this. By the way, I have recently read that Vallejo primer works best straight out of the bottle with no thinning. Supposedly is adheres much better.
GALILEO1
Joined: April 18, 2006
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Posted: Monday, March 03, 2014 - 10:58 AM UTC
I read the same thing, Kevin, but I find it just too thick to get it through my .2 nozzle. But I do see how it could be less durable.
Rob
Rob
chumpo
Joined: August 30, 2010
KitMaker: 749 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 03, 2014 - 01:17 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Was this just an accident or is it actually possible to thin Vallejo Model Air with Tamiya X20A thinner? I just experimented a bit and put a few drops of VMA into a plastic cup and then added some X20A to it. I was shocked to see that the paint wasn't at all disturbed by the thinner. In fact, the paint flowed amazingly well with no congealing whatsoever. It thinned it so well I was tempted to try it out in the airbrush but didn't. Have any of you been using X20A with Vallejo?
This open up great possibilities for me if this actually works in the brush as the X20A has some retarder in it and it may help with my constant clogging issues. I tested Vallejo's primer as well with excellent results.
Rob
You sure Vallejo did not just screw up . I tried that a long time ago and it was a mess . Nothing with alcohol mixes with Vallejo . Well Vallejo model color and Vallejo model air
SgtRam
Contributing Writer#197
Joined: March 06, 2011
KitMaker: 3,971 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 03, 2014 - 01:41 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I read the same thing, Kevin, but I find it just too thick to get it through my .2 nozzle. But I do see how it could be less durable.
Rob
I have a .3 nozzle, while it does spray with higher pressure, it does not seem to go down well unless it is thinned.
I have even started thinning the Air paint with the Vallejo thinner to about an 80 paint: 20 thinner, and find it it goes down much better.
GALILEO1
Joined: April 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,794 posts
Armorama: 1,431 posts
Posted: Monday, March 03, 2014 - 04:18 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextWas this just an accident or is it actually possible to thin Vallejo Model Air with Tamiya X20A thinner? I just experimented a bit and put a few drops of VMA into a plastic cup and then added some X20A to it. I was shocked to see that the paint wasn't at all disturbed by the thinner. In fact, the paint flowed amazingly well with no congealing whatsoever. It thinned it so well I was tempted to try it out in the airbrush but didn't. Have any of you been using X20A with Vallejo?
This open up great possibilities for me if this actually works in the brush as the X20A has some retarder in it and it may help with my constant clogging issues. I tested Vallejo's primer as well with excellent results.
Rob
You sure Vallejo did not just screw up . I tried that a long time ago and it was a mess . Nothing with alcohol mixes with Vallejo . Well Vallejo model color and Vallejo model air
I was surprised too to say the least. I used three or four drops of VMA black mixed with some of the Tamiya thinner and it worked perfectly. Again, I did not try this in the airbrush as I was expecting a mess. I was glad to see it go so well. I didn't try it with any other color so it will be interesting to see what happens. I'll give it another shot tomorrow and will report.
Rob
GALILEO1
Joined: April 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,794 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 03, 2014 - 04:22 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI read the same thing, Kevin, but I find it just too thick to get it through my .2 nozzle. But I do see how it could be less durable.
Rob
I have a .3 nozzle, while it does spray with higher pressure, it does not seem to go down well unless it is thinned.
I have even started thinning the Air paint with the Vallejo thinner to about an 80 paint: 20 thinner, and find it it goes down much better.
My thoughts exactly...It does go down much better thinned. I even tried shooting it with a .5 airbrush and I still didn't like the results. I recently tried the AK (Ammo should be the same) primer and the stuff is simply superb! I stopped using Vallejo's primer soon after I tried the Ak stuff.
Rob
SdAufKla
Joined: May 07, 2010
KitMaker: 2,238 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 - 03:07 AM UTC
This shouldn't be too surprising.
Tamiya's X-20A thinner is mostly isopropyl alcohol (IPA) and since alcohol will mix with water, it will also mix with the Vallejo paints, which are true, water-based acrylics.
You might encounter some issues with durability and adhesion, though, since when water-based acrylics are reduced, the painter should add back some acrylic binders to retain the proper ratio of binders in the solution. Without the proper amount of binders to adhere the pigment to the painted surface, the dried paint may not be durable enough for subsequent handling. Obviously, the Tamiya X-20A does not contain any of these binders (neither does straight water, for that matter).
Vallejo's Thinner Medium (both Model Air or Model Color) contains these additional acrylic binders. You can also use any other artist acrylic gloss or matt medium mixed with water to achieve the same result.
(BTW: Vallejo also makes a full line of artist acrylic paints and this product line includes acrylic gloss and matt mediums as well as retarders and flow enhancers.)
If you need to retard the Vallejo paints, you can use any brand of artist acrylic retarder and the same goes for improving the flow with any artist acrylic flow aid or flow enhancer. Acrylic products from Grumbacher, Golden, Liquitex are all compatible with Vallejo paints.
Tamiya paints are not water-based acrylics. They are a solvent-based acrylic.
The acrylic resins and binders in Tamiya paints are reduced with cellulose solvents like lacquer thinner or alcohols. Painters are able to introduce water into the Tamiya paints because the water will mix with the existing solvents, but the water will not reduce the acrylic binders in the Tamiya paints. Those paints require either alcohol or lacquer thinner or both to properly reduce the binders and resins.
HTH,
Tamiya's X-20A thinner is mostly isopropyl alcohol (IPA) and since alcohol will mix with water, it will also mix with the Vallejo paints, which are true, water-based acrylics.
You might encounter some issues with durability and adhesion, though, since when water-based acrylics are reduced, the painter should add back some acrylic binders to retain the proper ratio of binders in the solution. Without the proper amount of binders to adhere the pigment to the painted surface, the dried paint may not be durable enough for subsequent handling. Obviously, the Tamiya X-20A does not contain any of these binders (neither does straight water, for that matter).
Vallejo's Thinner Medium (both Model Air or Model Color) contains these additional acrylic binders. You can also use any other artist acrylic gloss or matt medium mixed with water to achieve the same result.
(BTW: Vallejo also makes a full line of artist acrylic paints and this product line includes acrylic gloss and matt mediums as well as retarders and flow enhancers.)
If you need to retard the Vallejo paints, you can use any brand of artist acrylic retarder and the same goes for improving the flow with any artist acrylic flow aid or flow enhancer. Acrylic products from Grumbacher, Golden, Liquitex are all compatible with Vallejo paints.
Tamiya paints are not water-based acrylics. They are a solvent-based acrylic.
The acrylic resins and binders in Tamiya paints are reduced with cellulose solvents like lacquer thinner or alcohols. Painters are able to introduce water into the Tamiya paints because the water will mix with the existing solvents, but the water will not reduce the acrylic binders in the Tamiya paints. Those paints require either alcohol or lacquer thinner or both to properly reduce the binders and resins.
HTH,
ebergerud
Joined: July 15, 2010
KitMaker: 297 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 - 11:18 AM UTC
A-20 is not a good thinner for any paint in my view. It's ISP and works well for cleaning brushes, but that's it. For solvent based paints like Tamiya or Gunze, use Tamiya or Gunze Lacquer Thinner. (Tamiy's has a yellow cap and the bottle looks just like A-20.) Best is Mr. Levelling Thinner by Gunze which is a mild lacquer. (I would not use hardware store lacquer solvents on plastic, although they do a good job to scruf up PE.) A-20 does work with Tamiya, but especially for thin brews like what you'd want for modulation lacquer thinner is very much superior. (Adam Wilder was the first to make this observation about eight years ago and he had an army of A20 fans on his back as a result. But Wilder was right.)
For Model Color you should use either Vallejo's own thinner which is white but dries clear. This is exactly the same as "airbrush medium" that you can buy for much cheaper at a art supply store: all the companies make it but I like Golden or Liquitex the best. (The stuff costs about $8, but for 8 ounce bottle and it will last a very long time.) If you want to make it less opaque put in some Pledge - it's actually liquid acrylic. You can use only a very little bit of water or it will break down the integrity of the paint. Better than water would be "Airbrush Thinner" which is really made to thin Model Air. But even that should be used to fine tune - you want some kind of thinning agent that has a polymer in it. Paints like Model Color (or Golden Fluid acrylics) work very well with an airbrush but you do need the right mediums and you can't treat them like Tamiya. Both Tamiya and Vallejo make great paint but they're simply different.
Eric
For Model Color you should use either Vallejo's own thinner which is white but dries clear. This is exactly the same as "airbrush medium" that you can buy for much cheaper at a art supply store: all the companies make it but I like Golden or Liquitex the best. (The stuff costs about $8, but for 8 ounce bottle and it will last a very long time.) If you want to make it less opaque put in some Pledge - it's actually liquid acrylic. You can use only a very little bit of water or it will break down the integrity of the paint. Better than water would be "Airbrush Thinner" which is really made to thin Model Air. But even that should be used to fine tune - you want some kind of thinning agent that has a polymer in it. Paints like Model Color (or Golden Fluid acrylics) work very well with an airbrush but you do need the right mediums and you can't treat them like Tamiya. Both Tamiya and Vallejo make great paint but they're simply different.
Eric
Blackstoat
Joined: October 15, 2012
KitMaker: 568 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 - 11:10 PM UTC
Hiya
when i was a newbie
i mixed Tamiya thinner and Vallejo Model colour in my AB, it was a real disaster. Gloopy paint about sums it up
Andy
when i was a newbie
i mixed Tamiya thinner and Vallejo Model colour in my AB, it was a real disaster. Gloopy paint about sums it upAndy
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - 12:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hiya
when i was a newbie
Andy
You shouldn't run Vallejo Model Color through your ab. Vallejo Model Air is formulated for that purpose.
Blackstoat
Joined: October 15, 2012
KitMaker: 568 posts
Armorama: 561 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - 03:09 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextHiya
when i was a newbie
Andy
You shouldn't run Vallejo Model Color through your ab. Vallejo Model Air is formulated for that purpose.
yep, but that's not the point. I thought if I thinned it, and the original question was... oh never mind
chumpo
Joined: August 30, 2010
KitMaker: 749 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - 08:10 AM UTC
I have in front of me Vallejo model color , 70.918 ivory . I just thinned it with Tamiya x20a it was a mess . Not that I wanted to run it through the airbrush , I was going to hand brush it . Now this is old paint maybe a year or more old . Unless Vallejo re formulated their model color or I'm doing something wrong it won't mix with alcohol . I also tried it it with denatured alcohol same thing a mess . Anybody know what's the date code on this bottle ? Does G-25-10 sound like the manufacturers date ? I'm not doubting that I can't be done , just not with what I have on hand .
GALILEO1
Joined: April 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,794 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - 10:49 AM UTC
Guys, please note that I'm specifically referring to Model Air in my op. I haven't tried thinning Model Color with X20A and won't anyway as I only use the Model Color for brush painting.
Just thought I'd clarify.
Rob
Just thought I'd clarify.
Rob
chumpo
Joined: August 30, 2010
KitMaker: 749 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - 12:49 PM UTC
Does life color come close . Their thinners work with each other . I mean vallejo's . Maybe it's because I use Vallejos model air thinner to thin down the Vallejo model color so the error in understanding the post . I just never could spray it out of an airbrush .
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,953 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 07:46 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextHiya
when i was a newbie
Andy
You shouldn't run Vallejo Model Color through your ab. Vallejo Model Air is formulated for that purpose.
Nonsense......Whilst Vallejo would have you buy Model Air paints to put through your airbrush and Model Color for brush painting, Model Color suitably thinned with Vallejo thinner or even plain water will airbrush fine.A little retarder or flow improver will help with drying on the nozzle but like any other airbrushing of paint trial and error will get it right.
I don't own a single bottle of Model Air, as I like to buy paint I can't use for both purposes, so I can't help you on the model air with tamiya thinner Rob, but my experience early on, without knowing, mixed vallejo model color with tamiya thinner to create cream cheese in my pallet !!
Alan
chumpo
Joined: August 30, 2010
KitMaker: 749 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 08:48 AM UTC
You won't believe my frustrations of trying to spray model color out of an airbrush . For me I've given up , I can't do it no matter how hard I try .
viper29_ca
Joined: October 18, 2002
KitMaker: 2,247 posts
Armorama: 1,138 posts
Posted: Friday, March 14, 2014 - 05:48 AM UTC
Vallejo paint is easy to spray, doesn't matter if it is Model Color, Game Color, Panzer Aces or Model Air.
Model, Game and Panzer Aces.
3 parts Vallejo AB thinner to 1 part paint.
By AB thinner, I mean this stuff:
Not the white thinner.
For Model Air, 1 part AB Thinner to 5 parts paint.
For the Model Air, the thinner acts more or less as a retarder, as well it breaks the surface tension of the paint which allows for better flow of the paint and a smoother finish.
For the others, it does all that, plus breaks it down so it can be run through an airbrush without any problems.
As far as Model Color vs Model Air, there are many colors in each line that are unique to themselves, and aren't repeated in the other line.
Been using Vallejo for 10+yrs, and have never had a problem with it, but when Vallejo came out with the new AB thinner, it changed the game as far as how easy it was to thin for airbrushing.
The AB thinner is formulated to work with all Vallejo paints, why bother using anything else?
Model, Game and Panzer Aces.
3 parts Vallejo AB thinner to 1 part paint.
By AB thinner, I mean this stuff:
Not the white thinner.
For Model Air, 1 part AB Thinner to 5 parts paint.
For the Model Air, the thinner acts more or less as a retarder, as well it breaks the surface tension of the paint which allows for better flow of the paint and a smoother finish.
For the others, it does all that, plus breaks it down so it can be run through an airbrush without any problems.
As far as Model Color vs Model Air, there are many colors in each line that are unique to themselves, and aren't repeated in the other line.
Been using Vallejo for 10+yrs, and have never had a problem with it, but when Vallejo came out with the new AB thinner, it changed the game as far as how easy it was to thin for airbrushing.
The AB thinner is formulated to work with all Vallejo paints, why bother using anything else?
ebergerud
Joined: July 15, 2010
KitMaker: 297 posts
Armorama: 164 posts
Posted: Friday, March 14, 2014 - 11:15 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Vallejo paint is easy to spray, doesn't matter if it is Model Color, Game Color, Panzer Aces or Model Air.
Model, Game and Panzer Aces.
3 parts Vallejo AB thinner to 1 part paint.
By AB thinner, I mean this stuff:
Not the white thinner.
For Model Air, 1 part AB Thinner to 5 parts paint.
For the Model Air, the thinner acts more or less as a retarder, as well it breaks the surface tension of the paint which allows for better flow of the paint and a smoother finish.
For the others, it does all that, plus breaks it down so it can be run through an airbrush without any problems.
As far as Model Color vs Model Air, there are many colors in each line that are unique to themselves, and aren't repeated in the other line.
Been using Vallejo for 10+yrs, and have never had a problem with it, but when Vallejo came out with the new AB thinner, it changed the game as far as how easy it was to thin for airbrushing.
The AB thinner is formulated to work with all Vallejo paints, why bother using anything else?
Scott,
You've got experience on your side and I'll give your method a try. However, I can give you the Vallejo "party line" on the issue and why the reason its based on. Vallejo Model Color paints are a slightly altered - I'd guess some retarder and perhaps some hardener - rendition of their artist acrylics. (Vallejo has long been a major producer of artist acrylics and mediums and the model end grew out of it.) Artist acrylics use polymer for an agent which varies in viscosity at the point of manufacture. (Be interesting to know how it's thinned because polymer dries very fast and very hard once in contact with the air. When thin it's a snap to clean an airbrush - if you let it dry, expect some serious cleaning.) Anyway, the Model Color airbrush thinner is white - it is a thinned polymer. Several art house paint companies like Golden, Liquitex, Windsor, Tri-Art and others make a similar brew for much cheaper per volume. I started using Model Color after I figured out how to use Golden fluid acrylics on models - it works well indeed. If you wanted to thin the stuff farther than 50/50 Golden recommends using something they call Airbrush Extender which is the same brew but even thinner and with leveling agents. Works great but does dry gloss. (As much as I like Vallejo paints, I do think Tamiya is superior for a very thin batch meant for low psi.)
Vallejo recommends Model Color thinner for Model Color paints - that's the white stuff and appears the same as Airbrush Medium. The reason is that water or solvents will break down the chemical bonding of the agent and create a less even surface. They recommend water or the Airbrush Cleaner for minor changes in viscosity. Their Airbrush Thinner is designed for Model Air or a Vallejo Primer. Model Air is Model Color cut with some kind of benign solvents to make it useable out of the bottle which modelers like. (Not matter what your brand preference, I can't see why every paint company doesn't use the Vallejo bottle - those are sweet.)
That's the "party line." Experience may provide different answers. (Those of you that have found that some water based paints hate alcohol are not alone. I think true water based paints should not be treated like the solvent based types like Tamiya or Gunze, although some folk seem to pull off anything. I know a good modeler that uses Windex to thin Tamiya.) I use the "white stuff" (Vallejo or Golden)to thin Model Color. I have found that if you want to cut the opacity of the paint, Pledge (which is an acrylic polymer) does nicely too. I use some Vallejo Airbrush Thinner to fine tune. This does work and opens up all the wonderful Model Color paints for airbrush. It dries satin and has a somewhat different texture than Tamiya which I find superior. Most modelers put on gloss or satin clear at some stage - lots of ways to make things matte.
That said, I've never tried Scott's technique and will do so maybe tomorrow - heaven knows I have the raw materials.
I've also got Vallejo Airbrush Cleaner which can be used as a kind of subtle chipping medium if you using one color of Vallejo (Lifecolor works too) over another and you want it show a kind of wear - a bit like a very mild version of the hairspray technique. Use a brush and move slowly. Mike Rinaldi employs the technique in Tank Art Vol I.)
Eric
Jedge3
Joined: July 17, 2010
KitMaker: 258 posts
Armorama: 208 posts
Posted: Friday, March 14, 2014 - 12:10 PM UTC
Eric
I use the same thinner Scott uses and it is clear not white. So not sure the thinner you use is the same. I have not had an issue using this thinner to thin model air or the regular model color as well to use in my AB. I have also used it to thin the primer as well.
As for the primer it works for me but I have found that you need to spray it at high pressure.
I recently have started spraying Mr. Surface as a primer as the their leveling thinner is great.
I use the same thinner Scott uses and it is clear not white. So not sure the thinner you use is the same. I have not had an issue using this thinner to thin model air or the regular model color as well to use in my AB. I have also used it to thin the primer as well.
As for the primer it works for me but I have found that you need to spray it at high pressure.
I recently have started spraying Mr. Surface as a primer as the their leveling thinner is great.
Chrisk-K
Joined: January 09, 2012
KitMaker: 310 posts
Armorama: 294 posts
Posted: Friday, March 14, 2014 - 02:17 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Vallejo paint is easy to spray, doesn't matter if it is Model Color, Game Color, Panzer Aces or Model Air.
It's great Vallejo works superbly for you. In my experience, Vallejo paint is more difficult to spray than Tamiya acrylics (more clogging, more frequent dry tip) and is a b!tch to clean once it starts to dry. Even Vallejo AB cleaner doesn't remove dried Vallejo paint.
Venko555
Joined: December 07, 2013
KitMaker: 908 posts
Armorama: 698 posts
Posted: Friday, March 14, 2014 - 05:46 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Even Vallejo AB cleaner doesn't remove dried Vallejo paint.
For cleaning acrylic I use 90% alcohol, and if there's still some residue-Tamiya airbrush cleaner, cleans everything, including dried primer like Alclad. Best stuff IMHO
Cheers!
GALILEO1
Joined: April 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,794 posts
Armorama: 1,431 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 07:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextVallejo paint is easy to spray, doesn't matter if it is Model Color, Game Color, Panzer Aces or Model Air.
It's great Vallejo works superbly for you. In my experience, Vallejo paint is more difficult to spray than Tamiya acrylics (more clogging, more frequent dry tip) and is a b!tch to clean once it starts to dry. Even Vallejo AB cleaner doesn't remove dried Vallejo paint.
Agree completely with this. Spent two hours cleaning my a/b the other day after spraying Model Air (which was slightly thinned with the new formula thinner). It took just a couple of minutes from when I started spraying to my tip clogging completely. The paint dried super fast inside the color cup as well and Vallejo's own Aurbrush Cleaner did nothing to remove it. In the end, lacquer thinner and a complete dissasembly of the brush did the job. I'm definitely not the only one having issues with this range. I do love the Model Color range though. Some of the best paints for brush-painting out there.
Rob
chumpo
Joined: August 30, 2010
KitMaker: 749 posts
Armorama: 521 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 07:24 AM UTC
Those that can spray Vallejo model color and model air must be gifted by the gods . It's either that or I'm just plain frustrated by trying to spray Vallejo through an airbrush , no matter how hard I try the airbrush always clogs up and turns into a real pain to clean . And it's not just me but other guys in the hobby shop voices the same frustration. I have used counting drops of paint and thinner to using weights to measure the amounts and they still mess up . I've used paint retarders and flow enhancers to no avail . So I just use model color as a brush on paint . It's like trying to spray latex paint , well latex is easier to spray .
Grauwolf
#084
Joined: September 14, 2005
KitMaker: 2,485 posts
Armorama: 743 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 07:28 AM UTC
Rob and Edmund,
What airbrush and needle size are you guys using?
Cheers,
Joe
What airbrush and needle size are you guys using?
Cheers,
Joe
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