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Armor/AFV: Guntrucks!
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Why wood?
HajoLi
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Posted: Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 12:28 AM UTC
Hi all!

Just registered here to post my question, hope you donīt mind...

Iīm working on a "What If"-Guntruck, using Academys 1/72 M977 as base. (The "What if"-portion will include mainly the armament and equipment, as I plan to do a Special Forces-support truck).

Checking various pictures of real and modelled Guntrucks I noticed that many of them seem to have a wooden cover on the inside of the add-on armor of the "gun box".

Is there a special reason for this (sure is, but which one? ;-) )? I remember from my old german army times that any form of wood usually makes a perfect base for splinters when receiving gun-fire, so my initial guess would be to NOT use wood in a place like this....


HAJO
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Posted: Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 02:43 AM UTC
While I'd have to see a photo to have a really educated guess, and acknowledging that wood does splinter, I can make a cople of guesses as to why there is wood in the bed:

1) First off wood is cheap, readily available and readily worked. In a "make do" situation, it will do when a better material exists, but is not available.

2) The wood is acting as a spall liner inside the armour. While it splinters if penetrated, it's also soft enough to absorb metal flakes that spall off impacts on the armour.

3) It may be acting as a low weight internal support for part of the armour system. If the armour is, say 1/4" armour plate backed up by sand or concrete, a wood internal layer acting to hold the sand or concrete makes sense.

4) It may not be part of the armour system and there simply to support other items inside the truck bed, ie it's easier to mount ammo racks or seats or shelves to the wood than the armoured shell.

5) It may simply be there because the crews thought it dressed up their ride or provided a slightly less hard internal surface if they were thrown into it. Don't underestiamte what crews will do to dress up their vehicle even if it seems stupid or compromises some of the operational aspects of the vehicle or them wanting to get rid of painful protrusions in a space that is cramped and has several people moving around it in combat.

These are just some suggestions, I don't know if any of them are the actual reasons, though.

Paul
ahandykindaguy
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Posted: Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 03:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

While I'd have to see a photo to have a really educated guess, and acknowledging that wood does splinter, I can make a cople of guesses as to why there is wood in the bed:

1) First off wood is cheap, readily available and readily worked. In a "make do" situation, it will do when a better material exists, but is not available.

2) The wood is acting as a spall liner inside the armour. While it splinters if penetrated, it's also soft enough to absorb metal flakes that spall off impacts on the armour.

3) It may be acting as a low weight internal support for part of the armour system. If the armour is, say 1/4" armour plate backed up by sand or concrete, a wood internal layer acting to hold the sand or concrete makes sense.

4) It may not be part of the armour system and there simply to support other items inside the truck bed, ie it's easier to mount ammo racks or seats or shelves to the wood than the armoured shell.

5) It may simply be there because the crews thought it dressed up their ride or provided a slightly less hard internal surface if they were thrown into it. Don't underestiamte what crews will do to dress up their vehicle even if it seems stupid or compromises some of the operational aspects of the vehicle or them wanting to get rid of painful protrusions in a space that is cramped and has several people moving around it in combat.

These are just some suggestions, I don't know if any of them are the actual reasons, though.

Paul



Sounds pretty "educated" to me Paul...my guess is you know much of what you speak of.

Dave.
Paulinsibculo
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Posted: Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 05:40 AM UTC
Dear Hajo,
The reason is as following:
Insurgents use the wide spread RPG's to attack military vehicles. These RPG's ( mainly the RPG 6 and RPG7) have a large warhead, designed to detonate in contact with a tank's armour. This was achieved by adding a hollow pointed nose section with the impact fuse in it, so that when the weapon detonated the warhead was at the optimum distance from the armour. It actually "burns" a hole in the steel plating of the protective box on the truck, creating a spray of hot metal parts at the inside of an APV or tank.(actually for the truck, this would be in the box) While using a thick wooden backing at the inside of the box, the effect of the hot metal spray is reduced, if not stopped.
Al together, it is a relatively easy and cheap field modification, forced by the use of "normal" industrial steel to build a rather safe box.
HajoLi
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Posted: Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 05:56 AM UTC
Thnak you, guys, that helps a lot! Glad I picked up a couple of plywood coffee spoons, they will help modelling the wood inside the box.


HAJO
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#417
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Posted: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 09:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

While using a thick wooden backing at the inside of the box, the effect of the hot metal spray is reduced, if not stopped.



Sorry, but while it might have been the reason the crews did it (a reason they came up with on their own) it would have absolutely zero effect on the plasma jet from a hollow charge, HEAT round. Zero.

Once the jet forms it will proceed through material until the jet despabilises and fans out, becoming ineffective. RPG 2 and RPG 7 rounds could punch through several inches of armour,. modern RPGs and ATGMs go through many moreinches of armour. 2-3-4-5 even 6 inches of wood behind the 1/4-1/2" steel on these boxes has little to no effect on a plasma jet that can cut through 4" of armour steel.

If the wood was on the _outside_ it would have more effect as it would cause the detonation too far away from the steel for optimum penetration, but even poor penetration will punch through the thin armour on these gun trucks.

If there is wood there, it's for another reason.

:-)

Paul
TopSmith
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Posted: Monday, March 24, 2014 - 01:56 PM UTC
Probably there to keep "stuff" from banging on the metal sides as the truck drives along. Cheep bed liner.
tankmodeler
#417
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Posted: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 - 04:02 AM UTC
Part of the answer probably lies in how thick the wood was and what was on the other side of it. If it's pretty thin 1-2"hten it's probably used as a simple liner or as a inner wall to something like sandbag armour. Again, though, hard to make better guesses withuot photos.


Quoted Text

my guess is you know much of what you speak of.


No, not really at all, I'm just a mechanical engineer with a fair amount of amateur general historical AFV knowledge making guesses. I really know almost nothing about guntrucks in particular so everything I'm saying here really is a guess.
HajoLi
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Posted: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 - 04:48 AM UTC
Thank you, one of the Guntrucks Iīm using as partial reference is this model here:

http://www.modellversium.de/galerie/22-militaer-fahrzeuge/8593-m977-guntruck-italeri.html

I think itīs abit too much wood, thereīs bareley enough room for the gunners in there!


HAJO
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Posted: Thursday, March 27, 2014 - 03:48 AM UTC
IF (and it's always a big "if" when using a model as a referance) this accurately represents an actual vehicle, then the thick timber baulks are definitely beeing used in this case as part of the armour system and not for haning stiff off on the inside. It would be relatively effective at stopping shell splinters and small arms ammo after any had penetrated the relatively thin plates on the outside.

As was said earlier, it would produce splinters if it was totally penetrated, but overall the amount of energy available to injure the crew would be less than if it was just the plates alone. Neither the plates nor the wood would have much effect on hollow charge rounds, though, so it is still very vulnerable to RPGs.

Paul
Frenchy
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Posted: Thursday, March 27, 2014 - 04:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

If the wood was on the _outside_ it would have more effect as it would cause the detonation too far away from the steel for optimum penetration



From Primeportal :





Here's another OIF guntruck fitted with thick wood "armor" :



H.P.
Rypp73
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Posted: Saturday, April 12, 2014 - 10:14 AM UTC
we had a few trucks around with wood on them, some the wood was on the inside it helped to prevent you burning yourself on the armor in the direct sun. there were a few trucks I saw with wood put into two layers with sandbags in-between, we armored with whatever you could find.
TopSmith
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Posted: Monday, April 14, 2014 - 01:42 PM UTC
Hummm... not much protection from bullets coming through the cab and driver into the bed.
HajoLi
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Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 - 12:44 AM UTC
Iīd like to thank you all for your contributions, ideas and suggestions.

Itīs only fair that I show what I have done so far. If you want a full in-progress report, have a look here:

http://www.modellboard.net/index.php?topic=48843.0 (Sorry, itīs all in german, but the pictures hopefully speak for themselves...)

Some impressions:

This is the inside of the drivers cabin:



I finished the truck complete with camouflage before starting the "Guntruck-features".



Front armor plates and gun-mount installed. I used plastic sheet and already painted some parts "rusty".



Gun-box finished and inside covered with wood:



Small command&control-section:



And this is the current status:




HAJO
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