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Another Big Build Sherman Plan
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 11:57 PM UTC
I have Dragon's old M4A1 Early Sherman(6048). I want to build an accurate representation of the late M4A1(what I have heard the kit really is). I can find very few reviews of this kit. What am I looking at to make this kit accurate?
Shermanguy
Joined: January 22, 2004
KitMaker: 23 posts
Armorama: 12 posts
Posted: Friday, August 15, 2014 - 02:11 AM UTC
Matt,
What you're talking about would more correctly be termed "mid-late small hatch M4A1". The very late small hatch M4A1's had cast in applique armour, which your kit doesn't have. The late M4A1s had a different hull casting with larger hatches and a rear overhang plate that extended further down.
You can build it out of the box with just a couple of minor fixes, and it would be suitable for any thing from mid-1943 onwards. At the very least, add the tow hooks and extensions to the cast transmission cover and sand down the rather rough texture on the cover. Otherwise, if you are looking for something that pretty closely resembles a Sherman M4A1 in Italy or Normandy without adding cost, this would be it.
However, since that kit came out many years ago, a lot of better detailed Shermans have hit the market, and there is now a ton of after market items that could be applicable to the model. Depending on how much you want to spend, you can go to town, but if you are going to spend money on this, consider just getting a Tasca/Asuka mid M4A1 instead - it has most of what you need in the box.
HTH
What you're talking about would more correctly be termed "mid-late small hatch M4A1". The very late small hatch M4A1's had cast in applique armour, which your kit doesn't have. The late M4A1s had a different hull casting with larger hatches and a rear overhang plate that extended further down.
You can build it out of the box with just a couple of minor fixes, and it would be suitable for any thing from mid-1943 onwards. At the very least, add the tow hooks and extensions to the cast transmission cover and sand down the rather rough texture on the cover. Otherwise, if you are looking for something that pretty closely resembles a Sherman M4A1 in Italy or Normandy without adding cost, this would be it.
However, since that kit came out many years ago, a lot of better detailed Shermans have hit the market, and there is now a ton of after market items that could be applicable to the model. Depending on how much you want to spend, you can go to town, but if you are going to spend money on this, consider just getting a Tasca/Asuka mid M4A1 instead - it has most of what you need in the box.
HTH
stoney
Joined: October 16, 2006
KitMaker: 480 posts
Armorama: 399 posts
Posted: Friday, August 15, 2014 - 04:45 AM UTC
http://www.usarmymodels.com/MANUFACTURERS/DML/dml6048.html
Gives you a pretty good overview of the kit and tweaks.
Gives you a pretty good overview of the kit and tweaks.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Friday, August 15, 2014 - 05:17 AM UTC
I'm hoping to build an M4A1 with dozer as was seen during Operation Market Garden.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Friday, August 15, 2014 - 08:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I'm hoping to build an M4A1 with dozer as was seen during Operation Market Garden.
Oops! It's the M4 I need. Guess I will just go with the M4A1 with dozer.
Shermania
Joined: January 30, 2013
KitMaker: 537 posts
Armorama: 531 posts
Posted: Friday, August 15, 2014 - 09:36 AM UTC
Matt,
Nothing wrong with doing a M4A1 Dozer, there were plenty around in WW2. I copied Panzer Serra's build almost to a T.
http://panzerserra.blogspot.com/search/label/M4A1%20Sherman%20with%20M1%20dozer
The only difference was I used all the plastic parts I could from the academy Dozer kit and then used the blade from the Trax resin kit. It looks sweet but I haven't painted it yet. I'll see if I can dig up a pic for you, but Serra's blog has a ton of pics of his build process and also reference pics too. Do yourself a huge favor and look at his blog.
Nothing wrong with doing a M4A1 Dozer, there were plenty around in WW2. I copied Panzer Serra's build almost to a T.
http://panzerserra.blogspot.com/search/label/M4A1%20Sherman%20with%20M1%20dozer
The only difference was I used all the plastic parts I could from the academy Dozer kit and then used the blade from the Trax resin kit. It looks sweet but I haven't painted it yet. I'll see if I can dig up a pic for you, but Serra's blog has a ton of pics of his build process and also reference pics too. Do yourself a huge favor and look at his blog.
Shermania
Joined: January 30, 2013
KitMaker: 537 posts
Armorama: 531 posts
Posted: Friday, August 15, 2014 - 09:41 AM UTC
BTW, the biggest flaw with the old #6048 is that the top hull is too wide on the upper slope of the hull by 2mm on each side. I could care less, they look great on the shelf. I made one of these into a marine "cape gloucester" A1 with T-49 tracks. Another became the dozer, a third became "eternity" with the M3 style bogies in sicily. The 4rth is only partially built but is going to eventually become a D-Day tank with the water proofing and the stacks. I've lost track of another 2-3 of these I built back when they first came out like 20 years ago but I still love this simple little kit. I've snapped them up at swap meets for as little as $15. It's not as nice as the Tasca, but still a fun straightforward easy build.
Shermania
Joined: January 30, 2013
KitMaker: 537 posts
Armorama: 531 posts
Posted: Friday, August 15, 2014 - 10:13 AM UTC
No question, the Tasca is the best version of this Sherman in plastic, period.
I guess I'm just a little nostalgic for this kit though. Of the older Sherman kits out there, it's probably one of the best. I've been hoping that DML would give it the orange box treatment for years, but it never happened. A new turret and the nice DS tracks and this little thing would've still kicked butt after all these years.
I guess I'm just a little nostalgic for this kit though. Of the older Sherman kits out there, it's probably one of the best. I've been hoping that DML would give it the orange box treatment for years, but it never happened. A new turret and the nice DS tracks and this little thing would've still kicked butt after all these years.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Friday, August 15, 2014 - 11:29 AM UTC
Something I am also considering is doing the crab/flail device. I've seen photos of the flail mounted on an M4A1, but can't find any that aren't made for the M4A4.
Shermania
Joined: January 30, 2013
KitMaker: 537 posts
Armorama: 531 posts
Posted: Friday, August 15, 2014 - 11:52 AM UTC
Matt,
Share the pics, I've never heard of an A1 crab before. This is news to me.
Share the pics, I've never heard of an A1 crab before. This is news to me.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Friday, August 15, 2014 - 09:32 PM UTC
This may be an M4, but is not an M4A4.
barkingdigger
Associate Editor
#013
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
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Posted: Saturday, August 16, 2014 - 03:12 AM UTC
Hi Matt,
That's definitely a standard M4 being fitted with some kind of flail device by US troops in a desert. (In the SW training grounds?...)
There are lots of things that got a one-off trial, on whatever hull was handy. But if you are narrowing things down to D-Day Crab usage by the British, then that means an M4A4 hull. They had mostly M4A2s & M4A4s on Lend-Lease. The Brits did get loads of M4A1s with the early "small" hatches early in the war, but these were gun tanks used primarily in the deserts of N Africa - most (if not all?) were worn-out wrecks by 1944.
The US had a bunch of M4A1 gun tanks in Normandy, but I don't know if any were used for dozers or similar. (In theory, the dozer kit would fit any Sherman, so it's possible - I just never needed to check...)
Hope this helps!
That's definitely a standard M4 being fitted with some kind of flail device by US troops in a desert. (In the SW training grounds?...)
There are lots of things that got a one-off trial, on whatever hull was handy. But if you are narrowing things down to D-Day Crab usage by the British, then that means an M4A4 hull. They had mostly M4A2s & M4A4s on Lend-Lease. The Brits did get loads of M4A1s with the early "small" hatches early in the war, but these were gun tanks used primarily in the deserts of N Africa - most (if not all?) were worn-out wrecks by 1944.
The US had a bunch of M4A1 gun tanks in Normandy, but I don't know if any were used for dozers or similar. (In theory, the dozer kit would fit any Sherman, so it's possible - I just never needed to check...)
Hope this helps!
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 16, 2014 - 05:16 AM UTC
I never had any intention to restrict the build to Normandy. I do find the photo very interesting, as the engineers in Africa came up with their own flail. Being in two theaters lends weight to the possibility of an M4A1 being fitted with something similar.
ericadeane
Joined: October 28, 2002
KitMaker: 4,021 posts
Armorama: 3,947 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 16, 2014 - 05:35 AM UTC
Matt: the Crab flail (as found in the Resicast, Verlinden and Legend aftermkt kits) was a British production variant after several experiments -- some in the field, some back in England. No photo of these on anything besides M4A4s is known to exist.
The Americans tried several flail devices as well -- both in the field and Stateside. Nothing progressed to full production although a few flimsy, ad hoc field variants saw actual combat usage as well as possibly a few developed research kits like in your photo of the M4 in Africa. I'd say your posted photo depicts lots of lessons or even equipment from British engineers. The similarity to the Crab flails is plain.
The only known uses of Crabs were by borrowed British equipped M4A4s. Postwar, there was continued research. A research sample of flail was shipped to Marine tank unit in Korea but did not work very well.
What one does occasionally see are the T1E3 Aunt Jemima mine rollers on M4s and M4A1s.
The Americans tried several flail devices as well -- both in the field and Stateside. Nothing progressed to full production although a few flimsy, ad hoc field variants saw actual combat usage as well as possibly a few developed research kits like in your photo of the M4 in Africa. I'd say your posted photo depicts lots of lessons or even equipment from British engineers. The similarity to the Crab flails is plain.
The only known uses of Crabs were by borrowed British equipped M4A4s. Postwar, there was continued research. A research sample of flail was shipped to Marine tank unit in Korea but did not work very well.
What one does occasionally see are the T1E3 Aunt Jemima mine rollers on M4s and M4A1s.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 16, 2014 - 05:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Matt: the Crab flail (as found in the Resicast, Verlinden and Legend aftermkt kits) was a British production variant after several experiments -- some in the field, some back in England. No photo of these on anything besides M4A4s is known to exist.
The Americans tried several flail devices as well -- both in the field and Stateside. Nothing progressed to full production although a few flimsy, ad hoc field variants saw actual combat usage as well as possibly a few developed research kits like in your photo of the M4 in Africa. I'd say your posted photo depicts lots of lessons or even equipment from British engineers. The similarity to the Crab flails is plain.
The only known uses of Crabs were by borrowed British equipped M4A4s. Postwar, there was continued research. A research sample of flail was shipped to Marine tank unit in Korea but did not work very well.
What one does occasionally see are the T1E3 Aunt Jemima mine rollers on M4s and M4A1s.
Thank you for the information. It is my experience that you simply can't argue with photographic proof.
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 - 05:57 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thank you for the information. It is my experience that you simply can't argue with photographic proof.
True enough. If yuo build that exact flail variant in that environment on that hull, you're golden, It when any of us project information in a photo past exactly what the photo shows, that we tend to get in trouble. :-)
We all do it. :-)
Paul
ALBOWIE
Joined: February 28, 2006
KitMaker: 1,605 posts
Armorama: 1,565 posts
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 - 10:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextMatt: the Crab flail (as found in the Resicast, Verlinden and Legend aftermkt kits) was a British production variant after several experiments -- some in the field, some back in England. No photo of these on anything besides M4A4s is known to exist.
Thank you for the information. It is my experience that you simply can't argue with photographic proof.
Yes ands the M4 you have here is NOT a crab it is some other type of Flail device probably based on the earlier Scorpion
Cheers
Al
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2014 - 08:02 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextMatt: the Crab flail (as found in the Resicast, Verlinden and Legend aftermkt kits) was a British production variant after several experiments -- some in the field, some back in England. No photo of these on anything besides M4A4s is known to exist.
Thank you for the information. It is my experience that you simply can't argue with photographic proof.
Yes ands the M4 you have here is NOT a crab it is some other type of Flail device probably based on the earlier Scorpion
Cheers
Al
Quoted Text
Something I am also considering is doing the crab/flail device.
Note: "crab/flail"
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Friday, August 22, 2014 - 01:07 PM UTC
OK. I'm going with the British tank, seen at Normandy. I will be using either Dragon's M4A4 or Firefly Vc value box kit. I've heard that all the parts you need to build the Vc are included in the M4A4 box. Is this true or do I need the Firefly? I'm toying with the idea of getting the Tasca version, as it is $50 on evilbay.
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