i havent completed the rail car yet, because i have to learn how to paint realistic weathered wood. But, here are the pictures of the panzer that is completed.

Kit is a cyberhobby kit (super value pack kits). Completed as an out of box build. nothing added other than the chain over the jack, and and the front.












More to come for the flatbed railcar..,..

Jesse;

The panzer looks pretty good!

But.... the chain gotta GO, I think! Cable? YES. Chains hung on German tanks? Almost never, and I could not guess that a command tank would have one... although there's always a first time for anything! Besides, you have what looks like lots of heavy chain - wrapped around and hanging off of two smallish lamp-mounts. Those probably were not really good for this sort of thing...

That chain DOES, however, have a really authentic and good place in the scene... used to chain that III down on your coming flatbed RR car!

Bob

that was a question i had...hard to find pictures of tanks on the flatbeds. im not sure if they woudl typcially have tied them down. i find it hard to believe that they wouldnt, but if they did, would it have been with chain, or cable?

ALL the pics I've seen of WWII tanks tied down on flats look to me like they had chains, when I could find anything in the pic about tie-downs. But I am pretty sure that all were indeed tied down - a braking train would not want some panzer rolling along a flat... and there were no parking-brakes on panzers! Chock-blocks and chains were the standard approach to secure heavy loads.

That said, I'm sure that somebody will find some pic of a tank roped-down! But I'm sure that this would be an odd case then and now.

This is pretty much the same today for heavy equipment on big trucks and rail-flats. Cables, as in the wire-rope cables German tanks carried, were tow-cables with attached eyes. They would not have been very useful for tying a tank down. The tie-down chains would have come with the RR flat - along with turn-buckle sets with hooks at either end for cinching-down the load - neither bit likely something the tank brought to the party.

Cheers!

Bob

German's did not tie their vehicles down to rail cars. They used wood chalks to keep them in place. At least according to what I have read.

You may well be right, Peter. I just spent some time going through a bunch of pics, and while some were pretty grainy, I didn't see any evidence of tie downs.

I don't have a problem with the chain on the tank. It makes a reasonable substitute for a lost or broken cable.

First of all, excellent III! As for the chain, I think it very believable that one may have been left on the panzer during transport. It does not necessarily have to be for the panzer, but something left on it by an absent minded engineer or soldier. I do agree that the lights would be an unlikely spot for attachment and that there may be a little too much chain. The chain behind the jack is much more believable. I look forward to seeing the rail car.

Germans and tie-downs... It's these fun sort of things where questions and controversy pop up which are most fruitful, in that they provoke diving into those refs!

Didn't take me long to find 7 pics in Concord Military Series vols showing clear tie-downs of panzers on RR flats.

I'll post 2 or 3 tomorrow...

But the story gets better! YES - as I had mentioned, and as Peter forthrightly said, the Germans did indeed use wooden chock-blocks (wedged fore and aft under the tracks) to keep those panzers in place. Chocks appear everywhere and under all marks of armor.

For those who assert different; The Germans did indeed tie their tracked stuff down, but it's a more complicated picture than my earlier simple, all-encompassing statement about this... Turns out in pics that Panzers 1, II, III, IV, 35(t) and 38(t) and variants thereof (StuG III, StuG IV, Marders, etc.) - the lighter and more-modest-weight stuff - "enjoyed" tie-downs - but not consistently... Larger, heavier stuff - Panthers and Tigers - mostly suffered chocks only. I'll suppose that such heavies were much less likely to slide off any RR flat in a turn

Where I was most wrong was in HOW or with WHAT panzers were tied... almost all the tied-down tanks clearly appear on closer look to be tied down with... the tow-cables! How funny (at least to me, who was pretty certain that those cables would NOT be so employed!). That'll teach me to look twice and closely, too!

And it looks like some cables were attached only on the end to the rear of the train, while others were fore-and-aft secured. This may make some sense... the train had little ability to accelerate rapidly, but much greater potential to stop pretty fast. Tie-downs would help the chocks save some tanks for later use in the case of a crash or derailment.

There are actually relatively few clear pics of German tanks on rail transport - But I'm not surprised at this... I am pretty certain that folks were not encouraged to photograph units in RR movement in time of war... And of the RR transport pics available, most did not strive to capture this sort of obscure detail... And you cannot see tie-downs from every angle, so many pics - even clear pics - don't provide much info pro or con to this question. In addition, just because we see tanks on flats does not mean that they were actually all-packed and ready to roll, or that they have not already started readying stuff to off-load. Timing is something, if not "everything" when taking pics!

And, just to help things out, practices were flexible - if the ride was shorter or more urgent, things were kept simple... for example, while we know that Tigers were "too wide" when wearing their regular tracks, so special "transport" tracks were often used... but there are plenty of pics out there showing Tigers riding the rails wearing regular wide tracks on short trips. Expediency rules in time-of-need.

As to chains on panzers... I frankly admit it looks cool (hey, I LOVE scale real chains! And have put them on one or 2 builds myself... ) - but, at risk of sounding a little grumpy and perhaps petulant... they just don't show up in German tank pics. (and I just searched through 3 Concord vols cover-to-cover - StuGs, Pz II, III, IV, Panthers, Tigers, SPG, etc.). I am sure there was a tank somewhere with chain on it - just haven't seen that pic, yet!

Cheers!

Bob

i agree a lot with what is said. especially that of whether there was tanks being tied down. it is quite possible that something would not have been tied down if things needed to be expedient. obviously, this wouldnt wouldnt be the case for a long trip, imo.
Finding pictures is the struggle. the bit of looking that i have done, you dont see much with the tank on the flatcar. i plan on tying it down, but with what, i dont know yet. if i use cable, i would either have to make the cable conveniently to the exact length needed for the tie down, or find reference pictures that show how the excess cable would have been secured. i cringe at making the cable the exact length. i would rather use chain in an instance like that where i can use the excess chain to add to the overall look.
Also, with modern day, they usually use a cable system for tying things down as well. when they tie them to landing craft, semi's, etc., they typically cross the cables where the cable on the left of the vehicle will tie down to the right, and vice versa. so, i need to know if that is the case in the 40s as well.

If anyone can provide reference, of any kind, please do so. the car, as soon as i get an idea of how to weather the wooden platform, will be completed just as fast.

Looking really great that panzer III.

Here I have some reference for your railcar.

About making wood color, my method start with some testing on plastic or paper using Tamiya Dark Yellow, Deck Tan, Buff and Desert Yellow.

Once they are dried and sealed I used oils, in this case burnt umber, burnt sienna or another brown tone. Apply it and left it for 4-5 minutes, then with towel paper rub it off. The tint will stay leaving a very similar wood color to the base acrylic color. Try with each and select the one of your liking. Hope this help!

Jesse;

You are IN LUCK, Friend! At least somewhat so...

I said I would post a couple pics today - here are a couple I collected (photo'd) from two Concord vols in my library last night (I had to photo and download images, as my scanner is, well... )

I focused for this discussion and your specific case on pics dealing with III / IV type stuff.

The following images are posted HERE for discussion purposes ONLY.

The first image, taken, IIRC, from the Concord Panzer Vor! #6 vol , shows a IV-D on its putative way into Russia probably ca later summer, 1941. Note the crossed cables - a solid professional tie-down, set up specifically to reduce potential for the load to slide off the flat left or right, and probably set up at a regular rail-head depot for a long, scheduled trip. Note that this tank is (was) secured using what looks like doubled tow-cables.

While we don't completely see the RR flat end of things, there were tie-down loops and fittings on flats then as now. I would expect that the cables were tightened-up by either rigging them and then backing the tank a bit (works for one end only, of course... ), or they were attached via turn-buckles to the car (which would probably need to be used in any case at one end...). I THINK I can see what could be a turn-buckle hook at the lower left in front of that panzer...



The second image, from the Concord Sturmartillarie vol 1, I think, shows a train of StuG III in the Kursk area in spring / early summer of 1943. Of note is the front StuG, which is still (or already?) tied down and ready to travel (while the StuG behind has its cables lying loose in front of it - perhaps in process of getting tied-down, or already released to start off-loading? - a case of "timing is everything" in photographing events! ). There is a guy behind the first StuG - looks to me like he could be fiddling with a cable...

The tied Stug had a single cable in this case - from the evident angles, that cable was pulled out diagonally to fittings along the edge of the flat, as versus directly fore and aft. It looks pretty snug, and one can imagine that there was a turn-buckle at one end of that cable... but, compared to the Pz IV-D in above pic, this tie-down job MAY be less effective... neither doubled nor "properly" cross-tied to prevent slide-off. It does suggest that tying-down did not follow an exact and didactic formulary approach...



So... clearly there were tie-downs, and again seems, despite my first brief impressions "back when", where I jumped to conclusion that it would be chains, that "cables rule".

How could YOU create this look? I would go with using a "standard tow-cable" and wrap or rig the cable as you desire (crossed or not, doubled or not), and then push my panzer back off that cable-set to snug it up, and then place my chocks beneath as needed. The other end would get another cable, with a contrived "turn-buckle" at one end to take the slack to a fitting on the flat. Probably just like the real thing!

Having gone through this discussion a bit... I think I need to get a RR flat for a panzer!

Cheers!

Bob

PS:, that second image actually appears in several Concord vols - a sort of mute - but - reasonably - compelling testiment to the scarcity of good, clear pics showing German wartime units in RR transport. I can just see the FeldPolizei, or perhaps some bored Gestapo agent, wondering about that guy taking pics of tanks on trains...

you cant even imagine how much these pictures help. i wish i could see the way that the first picture had it tied down. the first picture, it doesnt look like they focus on tightening it down enough to say that it is not going to move. the cables look to have a decent amount of slack in them, which will help me as well.
since i already glued the pieces seen in photo 2 ("S" shaped cable hooks), to the tank, i wont go that route even though it may be easier to do. i personally like the look of the crossed cables more, and will probably be more appealing to those that look at it. i may have to use some artistic licensing with the cable unless i can find a reference that shows what the cable ends looked like.

thx for the info.

Hi jesse,

Nice work on the Panzer!

Your thread got me searching since I have a railcar build coming up. I wasn't able to find much if any info. on chain vs. cable. However, I seems that chocks were used extensively. Here are some interesting images showing how chocks were implemented. Another observation: Spare track-links were often shipped on the flat along with a tank — might make an interesting detail addition.

Here are a few links:

I think tie-downs of some sort are barely visible in this image.
http://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/panther-panzer/panther-bahntransport/

Not a tank but I like how the chock is being nailed to the flat.
http://s68.photobucket.com/user/mnrdunck/media/transport.jpg.html

Chock configuration example
http://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/panther-panzer/panther-ausf-g-on-rail-car/

http://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/panther-panzer/panther-ausf-g-at-man-factory-nuremberg/

IMHO, How many rivets you are willing to count? in the end, it's about having fun with your build.

Eager to see the work on your railcar!

—mike

PS: Bob,
That's a wealth of information. Thanks for sharing!

thx all for the references. i happen to find a choc reference earlier, as well. its a great reference, but was for a larger tank that was just put on without the cables, as discussed earlier.

this one is not just rail cars, or just german. but there are some mixed in, for good reference for those that may need them as i do.
http://histomil.com/viewtopic.php?f=345&t=12897

also, this is a great reference photo of a panther on a rail car...no tie downs, but has a great profile of the chocs and how they were used.

http://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/panther-panzer/panther-ausf-d-tank-on-railcar/

here is a sneak peek to the flatbed. the tank was before the tank was finished, but the rail car was completed at this point, minus painting the wood, so keep that in mind when critiquing it.

Figures, as soon as I post something saying I couldn't find pics of something, people come out of the woodwork with all sorts of them!

It did seem strange to me that tie downs weren't used, though. Common sense tells you that a shifting load is a dangerous load.

Your railcar looks great so far.

i have to admit that it is strange to see that 90% of the pictures found online do not have tiedowns on any of the vehicles, whether it be a heavy tank, or a light tank. i will still figure something out to put them on, but i could be accurate by just using chock blocks, or none at all.

It just occurred to me: With tie-downs, you'd need to have anchor points somewhere on the flat. Unless they were recessed, they would possibly hinder loading/unloading of the tank. ... Which brings up another point: Some flats were loaded from the side at railway platforms. In that case, maybe surface wear on the wood should reflect side and/or angled tank approach. ... Just weird stuff I think about.

—mike

I suspect that you will want chocks - tie-downs or not. Chocks seem to be near-universal (and certainly make a lot of sense) in pics where one would have a good look at the likely chock location AND where the pic shows a train either finished loading and ready to roll or perhaps rolling along. There were no parking-brakes, and a many-ton tank has a lot of momentum once the train is in motion...

The flat looks great even as it waits for final wood treatments! Does the kit come with all of those decals for the flat? Wow!

Are you thinking of putting anything else on the flat along with the tank? A group of barrels, a roll of spare track, maybe a tent for the crew? (there are pics showing all of these sorts of "shared loads" on flats with tanks).

Looking GOOD!

Bob

Very nice weathering on that rail car. You already have painted the wood in a light color, so the only step pending is the application of the brown oils. Post your results!

i do want to add something to the car to take up wasted space. i am still thinking that one over. i have thought about adding figures, but then it practically turns into a small diorama at that point, which i dont really want to do with this.
The crew tent is an option, and is seen in many reference photos, but i dont think i will do that. Tank treads also seen in many reference photos is an option, and would give me a reason to use up the extra magic track. perhaps a roll of extra track and a barrel?!

all of the decals did come with this kit. although it looks like a lot, it really is minimal at best.
as for the wood bed, i am going for a heavy weathered look, so it will be more in depth than just adding some browns and being done. i cant, for the life of me, find the pictures that i want to replicate, but the look i am going for will be a very weathered look with browns, greys, yellows, etc. and probably quite a bit of pigments for replication of dirt from the tracks.

There is a campaign about Military Railroad that probably will send you in the right direction.

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/173396&ord=&page=19

the railcar is done! last thing to do is to make the chock blocks, but nothing that will take long to do. perhaps i will do a barrel or two as well, but that will come later. i had to get this completed for an upcoming show. Below, i posted pictures of the completed railcar.

the wood effect looks really convincing, good job!