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LACROSSE MISSILE
BootsDMS
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Posted: Monday, September 22, 2014 - 10:01 AM UTC
I was lucky enough this past weekend to pick up the venerable Revell 1:40 Lacrosse missile at a model show in UK (Farnborough - "Modelfest").

Of course, 1:40 is a peculiar scale but I find these old models to be quite good fun and not bad regarding accuracy and details; I have built their M56 Scorpion and found it to be a good little kit.

Anyway, to business: there isn't that much on the web regarding this equipment, although I stress I am really looking for details of its deployment in Germany - USAREUR. Does anyone out there have access to, or can point me in the direction of decent pictures of the missile (and launcher) and specifically the colour scheme of a live missile (as opposed to a practice round)? Any pictures of it on exercise would be most helpful; I am keen to do this little model justice if at all possible.

Thanks in anticipation.

PS. Is it "Lacrosse" or "Lacrosse" even?!

AFVFan
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Posted: Monday, September 22, 2014 - 01:51 PM UTC
Did a Google search for "Lacrosse missle images". There were a few there showing an OD missle with black markings. They were probably operational units.
BootsDMS
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Posted: Monday, September 22, 2014 - 06:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Did a Google search for "Lacrosse missle images". There were a few there showing an OD missle with black markings. They were probably operational units.



Thanks; I've Googled around a fair bit myself but there's not that much out there. There is a useful site by a Jim Lewis from 20023 but no coverage of operational missiles or even of the system deployed in Germany.

It now appears to be "Lacrosse" not "La Crosse" (which is what I meant to post earlier.)

Thanks again.
CMOT
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Monday, September 22, 2014 - 06:40 PM UTC
Wait until Frenchy sees this, I am sure he will come up with a few images for you.
Frenchy
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Posted: Monday, September 22, 2014 - 08:57 PM UTC
No period pics yet here's a list of the Lacrosse units deployed in Germany :

2nd Msl Bn, 22nd Arty (Lacrosse)(SP) Nov 1960-->
4th Msl Bn, 28th Arty (Lacrosse)(SP) Apr 1960-->
5th Msl Bn, 33rd Arty (Lacrosse)(SP) Oct 1960-->
5th Msl Bn, 39th Arty (Lacrosse)(SP) Sep 1960-->
5th Msl Bn, 42nd Arty (Lacrosse)(SP) Mar 1960-->

from http://www.usarmygermany.com/Sont.htm

Lacrosse launcher walkaround on Primeportal :

http://www.primeportal.net/artillery/david_lueck/mgm-18_lacrosse/

Another one here :

http://www.modelbouwleuven.com/lacrosse-missile-system.php

Missile walkaround :

http://svsm.org/gallery/mgm18

H.P.
BootsDMS
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Posted: Monday, September 22, 2014 - 10:08 PM UTC
Frenchy,

Thank you very much indeed; I'd forgotten the USAREUR website - as always fascinating and priceless - a great source of modelling inspiration, or at least to Cold War modellers perhaps.

The other sites are very useful too; the Revell model holds quite well up to scrutiny despite its age.

'Hope something turns up with Lacrosse in the field; a Tankograd book informs me that on exercise Nuclear Winter 2 (1961) some 79 nuclear strikes were carried out - delivered by air forces, Corporal and Lacrosse - so there must be some pictures lurking somewhere. Fingers crossed!

Thanks again.
Frenchy
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Posted: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 12:41 AM UTC
This one belonged to the 5th Missile Battalion (14 Oct 1959) :



Full size
BootsDMS
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Posted: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 01:00 AM UTC
Thanks Frenchy; I found this too in someone's Flickr account. I suspect there is very little else on the www.

Anyway, it's a very evocative shot. I assume the missile was in Olive Drab/Olive Green though perhaps the warhead section is black. If say it were a live round I assume one of the coloured bands would be yellow (for HE); I further understand that nuclear rounds - in addition to the HE marking - bear an orange one. Can anyone confirm? I can't remember - I know there's a Standard NATO Agreement on this somewhere!
Frenchy
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Posted: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 01:42 AM UTC
Maybe you could use the Honest John missile color scheme



But the overall OD variant can be seen as well....

H.P.
BootsDMS
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Posted: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 01:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Maybe you could use the Honest John missile color scheme



H.P.



I think that's the way ahead Frenchy as I certainly don't wish to use the scheme of white with red nose. I think Olive Drab with "US Army" in white together with some generic white stencils - the latter shouldn't be too much of a problem as it is, after all, only 1:40. I might just vary the olive drab of the missile so that it isn't the same as the truck just for a bit of tonal variation - we'll see!

Thanks to all for your help.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 10:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I assume the missile was in Olive Drab/Olive Green



War reserve missiles were olive drab overall with black lettering.


Quoted Text

though perhaps the warhead section is black.



The XM72 training atomic warhead section used on the Honest John was black. I don't have any info on the TAWHS for LACROSSE, but it is a good bet it was black as well.

TAWHS were used to practice assembly, security, handling, and arming procedures for war reserve WHS. I doubt they were ever fired.


Quoted Text

If say it were a live round I assume one of the coloured bands would be yellow (for HE); I further understand that nuclear rounds - in addition to the HE marking - bear an orange one.



I have never seen a reference to the US doing that. Nuclear rounds were the normal colors (white or OD) and with a yellow band to indicate the HE component of the warhead. The only real difference was the inclusion of a "dot" or filled circle at three or four locations around the circumference in line with the center of the critical mass, to act as aiming points for the shaped charges used for emergency destruction.

KL
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Posted: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 10:52 AM UTC
Do you want to upgrade the detail on this kit at all ? If so I did a walkaround of it at Ft. Sill several years ago. I had the same kit with aspirations of really doing it justice, but ended up giving it away. My photos are prints, but I'd be happy to digitize them and send them to you, assuming I can find them.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 07:51 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Do you want to upgrade the detail on this kit at all ? If so I did a walkaround of it at Ft. Sill several years ago. I had the same kit with aspirations of really doing it justice, but ended up giving it away. My photos are prints, but I'd be happy to digitize them and send them to you, assuming I can find them.



Hi Robert,
I would be interested in digital images too.
That 1:40 kit is lurking in my stash as well ...

/ Robin
BootsDMS
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Posted: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 07:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I assume the missile was in Olive Drab/Olive Green



War reserve missiles were olive drab overall with black lettering.


Quoted Text

though perhaps the warhead section is black.



The XM72 training atomic warhead section used on the Honest John was black. I don't have any info on the TAWHS for LACROSSE, but it is a good bet it was black as well.

TAWHS were used to practice assembly, security, handling, and arming procedures for war reserve WHS. I doubt they were ever fired.


Quoted Text

If say it were a live round I assume one of the coloured bands would be yellow (for HE); I further understand that nuclear rounds - in addition to the HE marking - bear an orange one.



I have never seen a reference to the US doing that. Nuclear rounds were the normal colors (white or OD) and with a yellow band to indicate the HE component of the warhead. The only real difference was the inclusion of a "dot" or filled circle at three or four locations around the circumference in line with the center of the critical mass, to act as aiming points for the shaped charges used for emergency destruction.

KL



Kurt,

Now we're talking! Thanks for all this; the black warhead section will add a bit of interest to the colour scheme and I'll probably just stick with the yellow band.

I find these early tactical nukes fascinating; this attempt to find out a bit more has been extremely interesting.

Thanks for your help.
BootsDMS
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Posted: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 08:03 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Do you want to upgrade the detail on this kit at all ? If so I did a walkaround of it at Ft. Sill several years ago. I had the same kit with aspirations of really doing it justice, but ended up giving it away. My photos are prints, but I'd be happy to digitize them and send them to you, assuming I can find them.



Robert,

That would be very kind indeed; no rush as I'm bogged down in another Cold War project at the moment but this little kit has really whetted my modelling appetite.

Many thanks.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 10:41 PM UTC
Maybe a 'Davy Crockett' to get som variety ;-)
http://weaponsman.com/?p=16713
BootsDMS
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Posted: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 10:48 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Maybe a 'Davy Crockett' to get som variety ;-)
http://weaponsman.com/?p=16713



Robin,

I have a 1:35 resin kit of this (ground mounted not the Jeep version) - made by a firm called "Sharkit". Needless to say not yet built. It comes with 2 x crew in NBC suits.

I seem to remember there was a Jeep mounted version scratched on this site a few years ago. I'll have to dig around.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 01:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Now we're talking! Thanks for all this; the black warhead section will add a bit of interest to the colour scheme and I'll probably just stick with the yellow band.



Hold on there . . . The black TAWHS would not have any yellow bands or markings as they were inert. Looking at the photo above in more detail, I see it has two pairs of bands which is consistent with the markings on the shaped charge warhead. It probably is just a darker shade of OD base coat than the rocket motor.



KL
BootsDMS
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Posted: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 02:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text



Now we're talking! Thanks for all this; the black warhead section will add a bit of interest to the colour scheme and I'll probably just stick with the yellow band.



Hold on there . . . The black TAWHS would not have any yellow bands or markings as they were inert. Looking at the photo above in more detail, I see it has two pairs of bands which is consistent with the markings on the shaped charge warhead. It probably is just a darker shade of OD base coat than the rocket motor.

Kurt,

Roger that; I always prefer - where possible to depict my models as though it were "for real" - hence my original hope that I could depict a live round as it were; however, in the interests of breaking up the colour a little (otherwise there's a danger of just an OD blob) I may indeed opt for the training warhead section in black.

Thanks as ever for your extremely informative and helpful comments.


KL

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Posted: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 02:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Looking at the photo above in more detail, I see it has two pairs of bands which is consistent with the markings on the shaped charge warhead. It probably is just a darker shade of OD base coat than the rocket motor.



I guess it could be the same situation in this period footage...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OCxurE6WbY

Here's an example of two OD shades on a Lance missile (1962) :



H.P.
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Posted: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 04:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Maybe a 'Davy Crockett' to get som variety ;-)
http://weaponsman.com/?p=16713



A real trooper carries his nuclear warhead in a rucksack.
BootsDMS
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Posted: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 04:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Maybe a 'Davy Crockett' to get som variety ;-)
http://weaponsman.com/?p=16713



A real trooper carries his nuclear warhead in a rucksack.



As I believe was the case with Atomic Demolition Munitions (ADMs) whereby they were indeed carried by teams in a rucksack. I seem to recall that the Federal Republic of Germany had pre-drilled chambers for ADMs at vulnerable points on the autobahns such as the larger intersections.

You know, the Cold War was always interesting despite those long, oh so long exercises!
18Bravo
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Posted: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 06:04 AM UTC
Ours was called a SADM - Special Atomic Demolition Munition. I guess because we're "Special" Forces and not say, "Exceptional" Forces, or even just "Sui Generis" Forces. They did indeed fir inside a large ALICE pack.
I can see it used for an intersection. Buried, its fracturing capabilities increased, so we trained for emplacing them near dams and bridges.
It was the first school I attended after SFQC.
SdAufKla
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Posted: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 06:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Ours was called a SADM - Special Atomic Demolition Munition. I guess because we're "Special" Forces and not say, "Exceptional" Forces, or even just "Sui Generis" Forces. They did indeed fir inside a large ALICE pack.
I can see it used for an intersection. Buried, its fracturing capabilities increased, so we trained for emplacing them near dams and bridges.
It was the first school I attended after SFQC.



Same basic atomic (nuclear) warhead as the Davy Crockett. The device, as man-packed, was also the same basic shape and dimensions as the business end of the Davy Crockett.

Here's the container and rigging used by the jumper, if the infil was airborne (and not all of those missions were planned as such).



Getting a bit off-topic from the Lacrosse missile, but an interesting tangent, nevertheless.
BootsDMS
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Posted: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 09:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Ours was called a SADM - Special Atomic Demolition Munition. I guess because we're "Special" Forces and not say, "Exceptional" Forces, or even just "Sui Generis" Forces. They did indeed fir inside a large ALICE pack.
I can see it used for an intersection. Buried, its fracturing capabilities increased, so we trained for emplacing them near dams and bridges.
It was the first school I attended after SFQC.



Same basic atomic (nuclear) warhead as the Davy Crockett. The device, as man-packed, was also the same basic shape and dimensions as the business end of the Davy Crockett.

Here's the container and rigging used by the jumper, if the infil was airborne (and not all of those missions were planned as such).



Getting a bit off-topic from the Lacrosse missile, but an interesting tangent, nevertheless.



Well, technically off-topic perhaps but now I'm thinking up all sorts of Cold War modelling scenarios!

The extent and willingness of NATO in utilising nuclear munitions in such wide-ranging scenarios continues to fascinate; battlefield nukes abounded and if anything say, like a Soviet tank regiment was seen in an assembly area then stand-by. Lacrosse was obviously just one of those equipments to be used in such a scenario, let alone at enemy strongpoints.

At Army Group HQ as a young soldier I was lucky enough to be employed in the cell which issued all the targeting information to those staff planning branches dealing with the Soviet threat. It was all very atmospheric and we were all aware of how deadly serious it was, and exercises seemed very real at times. Of course, across the years it is now possible to replicate some of those feelings in modelling the equipments of the time; I'm sure I'm not alone here.

Keep the info coming!
 _GOTOTOP