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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Quick German uniform question.
thewrongguy
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 - 01:15 AM UTC
Hi,

Planning on building an SDKFZ 10/5 (with the FLAK38) in 21st Panzer division markings, Normandy '44.

Axis stuff isn't my usual thing and German uniform variations seems like they can be confusing even for a pro.

Would these figures be appropriate?



Thanks for your time,


Jeff
Naseby
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Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 - 01:49 AM UTC
They are correct for tankers. It seems they were mostly used in summer in France and also Italy. Actualy I think this Dragon set was made after a original uniform portraited in books of French publisher Histoire et Collection. However for Flak crews I think standard infantry Feldgrau uniform would be more appropriate, maybe just with tanker jackets made in feldgrau cloth. Black headdress was used only by tank crews, not associated units. Flak crews used standard helmets.
thewrongguy
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Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 - 01:56 AM UTC
Thanks for the reply, that helps immensely.

Cheers

Jeff
Jmarles
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Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 - 02:20 AM UTC
This is a nice little kit - it comes with a panther barrel, mantlet, cupola and MG btw. Just so you know this is the lightweight denim panzer wrap, reed green (bluish green) in colour.
jrutman
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Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 - 03:35 AM UTC
Regular 4 pocket wehrmacht jacket,wool or denim and trousers should be the ticket here. Helmet optional. German troops generally didn't wear the helmets as much as we did,unless they were in hot and heavy action.
That fig set you have is an awesome set for sure but only for tanks,sorry.
J
Jmarles
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Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 - 05:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Regular 4 pocket wehrmacht jacket,wool or denim and trousers should be the ticket here. Helmet optional. German troops generally didn't wear the helmets as much as we did,unless they were in hot and heavy action.
That fig set you have is an awesome set for sure but only for tanks,sorry.
J

Right you are, I completely missed that this was for the flak halftrack!

There are lots of photos showing both Heere and Luftwaffe troops wearing regular uniforms, often without webbing straps, and just the belt.

ericadeane
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Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 - 04:25 PM UTC
^ Yes, please note that most flak crewmen (artillery and vehicle crews, too) did not use webbing, only belts. Because they had to work closely and quickly around machinery, the webbing would be a needless snag risk.
Giovanni1508
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Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 - 08:26 PM UTC

Hi Jeff,

So, at the end of the story, as you've understood:

The Dragon set mentioned by you is not matching with SDKFZ 10/5 + FLAK38

Any figure of flak crew, I mean standard wehrmacht uniform without webbing, with or without helmet, will be ok.

Cheers

Giovanni
bill_c
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MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
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Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 - 10:28 PM UTC
Gents, FlaK units were also Luftwaffe, so isn't that uniform (and cap) option in play? Not for 21st Pz. Division, but to say "all FlaK units would wear standard army uniform" is IMO too broad. But I could be wrong.
Jmarles
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Posted: Thursday, January 15, 2015 - 03:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

^ Yes, please note that most flak crewmen (artillery and vehicle crews, too) did not use webbing, only belts. Because they had to work closely and quickly around machinery, the webbing would be a needless snag risk.


True, but if you want to get away with webbing you can...there are many pics of GD and 21st wearing both, but as a general rule, it was mostly just belts - especially with the Luftwaffe. Aren't there quite a few Dragon figs with just belts? maybe the artillery crew that was made for the Loki?
thewrongguy
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Posted: Thursday, January 15, 2015 - 05:39 AM UTC
Thanks for everyone's patience and input on my question. I am always frustrated how German uniforms are rarely uniform at all.

Would something like this be more on target?



Cheers

Jeff
Naseby
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Posted: Thursday, January 15, 2015 - 12:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text

German troops generally didn't wear the helmets as much as we did,unless they were in hot and heavy action.
That is not true, If You are present on the HKL - Hauptkampfslinie - main line of compbat You must by regulation wear helmet. Any one failing to do so would be punished by his superior. Forget about all those nice pictures and films made by the german Propagandakompanie showing men in fieldcaps. If You are in combat, You have to wear a helmet, not to do so would be agains the regulations and also preaty stupit.
All personell within an german armoured division would be part of the Heer, not the Luftwaffe. Only exception would be a Luftwaffe armoured division. So 21st division personell would wear Heer uniforms, not Luftwaffe.
jrutman
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Posted: Thursday, January 15, 2015 - 08:01 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

German troops generally didn't wear the helmets as much as we did,unless they were in hot and heavy action.
That is not true, If You are present on the HKL - Hauptkampfslinie - main line of compbat You must by regulation wear helmet. Any one failing to do so would be punished by his superior. Forget about all those nice pictures and films made by the german Propagandakompanie showing men in fieldcaps. If You are in combat, You have to wear a helmet, not to do so would be agains the regulations and also preaty stupit.
All personell within an german armoured division would be part of the Heer, not the Luftwaffe. Only exception would be a Luftwaffe armoured division. So 21st division personell would wear Heer uniforms, not Luftwaffe.


Yes well,that is why I said"unless they were in hot and heavy action".
Yes Luftwaffe flak was assigned to Luftwaffe field divs or to Flak Korp or other higher Luftwaffe units but there was also cross-attachments as well,just to make things interesting. For example,Gepanzertegruppe Peiper during the Ardennes offensive had a full Luftwaffe Flak Abt attached for air cover for the duration of the first strike. This unit stayed with the gruppe and escaped on foot with the rest of the outfit.
The German field units in the last part of the war where entirely different than the well drilled and "by the book" units that invaded Poland in 1939.
J
Naseby
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2015 - 01:13 AM UTC
Kapmfgruppe Peiper was an ad hoc formation, one can attach basically anything to it. But such Kampfgruppen are not regular units, after a particular action, they are disbanded and the components return to their parent unit. Kampfgruppen dont have their own garrison, supply or even insignia. A Kingtiger attached to the KG Peiper would still be a in fact a Kingtiger of the 1.LSSAH. Jeff was asking about the 21st Panzer, that was not an ad hoc unit. Units stationed in Normandy had plenty of personal equipment availeable. Germans lacked fuel, planes, tanks and heavy equipment, but they never had real problem with personal gear, infantry weapons and ammunition, not untill spring of 1945. And even then, If You take look at the pictures of german soldiers going into POW camps, they look better dressed then the Red army.As far as I remember german factories produced over 12 milion helmets. There was never a real shortage of helmets for field units.
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