Hello everyone
This is probarbly not the right forum for me since i mostly paint sci-fi and fantasy models (i will be painting sci-fi tanks though if that counts? ) but i hope its allright, i really dont know where else to ask for help and there seems to be alot of knowledgable and friendly people here.

I´ve been having some major issues with my airbrushing ever since i purchased it (about a year ago now) and i cannot for the life of me get a good finish that i am happy with, it´s extremely frustrating and im almost at the point of giving up using a airbrush and just stick to normal brushes.

Here are some pictures of different models that i´ve painted with my airbrush so you can get a good idea of what im dealing with.
(Ignore the choice of colours etc, most are just test models)
Zoom in to get a better look:

The first three models look abit better, but that is probarbly because they had a smooth primer that i painted on by hand, the others had a airbrushed primer(which naturally also came out bad as with everything i spray)

http://imageshack.com/a/img913/736/OLR3OL.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img661/8318/M7tW9b.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img905/3307/o2g0ic.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img912/8342/Knj3Z9.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img537/9574/x7ilqA.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img913/1273/m22pyw.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img909/8097/8T576K.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img911/6006/t1uljm.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img673/1650/wk0DFw.jpg


As you can see the finish isnt smooth at all, it looks fine at a distance but up close and on camera it just looks horrible, i´m guessing this is caused by some of the paint drying before it can land and level out on the model?

The frustrating thing is that ive researched the issue to no end (dozens of different forums, videos etc)and followed all the different advices and solutions but nothing has helped.

I´ve tried different thinning ratios, from superthin(vallejo air thinned an additional 50% for example) to thicker consistencies. I´ve tried spraying at different pressures and distances, from around 5psi to up to 30 and spraying super close or at a distance. I´ve tried different thinning ingredients, vallejo airbrush thinner, window cleaner, liquitex airbrush medium, MIG airbrush thinner, i´ve also tried adding fluid retarders(different brands and i´ve tried adding little amounts and as much as 25% retarder), i´ve tried flow aid aswell, both pure and thinned with water.
Also tried glycerine in different amounts.

I´ve tried doing super light coats and heavier wet coats.
I´ve been spraying in the summer with quite a hot room and lately i´ve tried having the window open and cooling the room down alot before painting but it doesnt seem to make a difference.
I also tried spraying in a basement (colder and more humid than my normal spray spot in my house) at my friends house, but it didnt make any difference

I feel like i´ve tried everything and no matter what i try i allways get that same result (sometimes its even worse).
I´ve tried a bunch of different brands of paint aswell, Vallejo air, citadel, P3 but it doesnt seem to make a difference.


I´ve mainly been using a badger patriot 105 airbrush with a Sparmax TC-501ac compressor.
I also have a badger renegade chrome with a 0.2 needle, i get the same finish with this one

I got a bunch of painting projects that im itching to get going, but i´ve put them on hold until i would get a good painting result with the airbrush, but that doesnt seem to be happening, i could just go ahead and paint everything with a brush but i know it wont look as good, especially when i go on to painting tanks and large smooth surfaces.


Thanks!


Best regards
//Richard

Not that im an expert but it looks like you get some "orange peel" on your models

Which is typically due to the paint partially drying before hitting the surface.
most often helped by: lowering pressure, spraying closer to the surface, thinning the paint, adding drying retarder and probably 15 other things i forgot to mention

Now... It seems you have tried pretty much everything so im not really sure what you should try next. Maybe take your gear to a local hobbyshop or someone more experienced in airbrushing who can run some tests?

Are you seeking a semi-gloss or gloss finish? IF so, "thin" your Future (Pledge Future-Shine clear floor finish) - this will really slow the drying, and, depending on how much you use, will result in something anywhere from slightly satin up to quite shiny-glossy.

You can also brush Future directly over any part of the dry paint surface to get a very glossy finish.

Just a suggestion!

Bob

@Johan Lundmark: Thanks for the input, i´ve been thinking among those lines myself, that it might be equipment related but it doesnt seem likely, maybe i should try with a different compressor. Not sure if there a place nearby that i can have my equipment checked out, i will have to look around

@Bob Woodman: Thanks for the suggestion, im looking for a matt finish, i usually hit my models with a matt coat at the last step, i will prob do a satin or gloss coat aswell before that for the extra protection since i will be handling the models quite alot during games, the reason some models are glossy in the pics is due to the liquitex thinner being glossy.

I tried mixing in some satin varnish with my paint but i didnt get any better results.

Do you think i should try mixing this future in the paint i´m spraying? not even sure i can get that brand over here, maybe it goes by a different name?

Hi, Richard! DO NOT add FUTURE to your paint mix. As far as your paint goes, you need to thin your paint if you are going to spray with your airbrush. Add ONLY the proper thinner to your paint- DISTILLED WATER for ACRYLICS, or the recommended thinners that are suggested by your ACRYLIC Paint manufacturer.

For ENAMEL paints, use the Airbrush ENAMEL thinners that are suggested by your paint manufacturer. I like to use TESTORS MODEL MASTER II ENAMEL paints, thinned with TESTORS MODEL MASTER II ENAMEL or LACQUER THINNERS for AIRBRUSHING.

quote[Hi, Richard! DO NOT add FUTURE to your paint mix. As far as your paint goes, you need to thin your paint if you are going to spray with your airbrush. Add ONLY the proper thinner to your paint- DISTILLED WATER for ACRYLICS, or the recommended thinners that are suggested by your ACRYLIC Paint manufacturer.

For ENAMEL paints, use the Airbrush ENAMEL thinners that are suggested by your paint manufacturer. I like to use TESTORS MODEL MASTER II ENAMEL paints, thinned with TESTORS MODEL MASTER II ENAMEL or LACQUER THINNERS for AIRBRUSHING.[/quote]

Hi, Dennis! Guess you don't like adding Future to your acrylics! I was (and am) assuming that Richard is spraying acryls - adding Future to Tamiya and Testors acryls has worked quite well for me - adding about 1 Future: 4 paint slows the drying time, creates a fine eggshell light satin finish and also gives that acryl coat a big boost in toughness. Your mileage differs, I'll guess!

IF the subject is about applying enamels... thin those with solvents suitable for enamels and NEVER with water or alcohol or related products.

Cheers!

Bob

Hi, Dennis! Guess you don't like adding Future to your acrylics! I was (and am) assuming that Richard is spraying acryls - adding Future to Tamiya and Testors acryls has worked quite well for me - adding about 1 Future: 4 paint slows the drying time, creates a fine eggshell light satin finish and also gives that acryl coat a big boost in toughness. Your mileage differs, I'll guess!

IF the subject is about applying enamels... thin those with solvents suitable for enamels and NEVER with water or alcohol or related products.

Cheers!

Bob [/quote]

Hi, Bob! I generally use enamels for my airbrushing and brush painting. I like the enamels because I find that they seem to flow better as they are petroleum-based. The one time that I added FUTURE directly into an acrylic paint, it gelled into an un-godly mess... Glad that you have had good luck with FUTURE mixed into your acrylics.

[quote]Hello everyone
This is probarbly not the right forum for me since i mostly paint sci-fi and fantasy models (i will be painting sci-fi tanks though if that counts? ) but i hope its allright, i really dont know where else to ask for help and there seems to be alot of knowledgable and friendly people here.

I´ve been having some major issues with my airbrushing ever since i purchased it (about a year ago now) and i cannot for the life of me get a good finish that i am happy with, it´s extremely frustrating and im almost at the point of giving up using a airbrush and just stick to normal brushes.

Here are some pictures of different models that i´ve painted with my airbrush so you can get a good idea of what im dealing with.
(Ignore the choice of colours etc, most are just test models)
Zoom in to get a better look:

The first three models look abit better, but that is probarbly because they had a smooth primer that i painted on by hand, the others had a airbrushed primer(which naturally also came out bad as with everything i spray)

http://imageshack.com/a/img913/736/OLR3OL.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img661/8318/M7tW9b.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img905/3307/o2g0ic.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img912/8342/Knj3Z9.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img537/9574/x7ilqA.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img913/1273/m22pyw.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img909/8097/8T576K.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img911/6006/t1uljm.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img673/1650/wk0DFw.jpg


As you can see the finish isnt smooth at all, it looks fine at a distance but up close and on camera it just looks horrible, i´m guessing this is caused by some of the paint drying before it can land and level out on the model?

The frustrating thing is that ive researched the issue to no end (dozens of different forums, videos etc)and followed all the different advices and solutions but nothing has helped.

I´ve tried different thinning ratios, from superthin(vallejo air thinned an additional 50% for example) to thicker consistencies. I´ve tried spraying at different pressures and distances, from around 5psi to up to 30 and spraying super close or at a distance. I´ve tried different thinning ingredients, vallejo airbrush thinner, window cleaner, liquitex airbrush medium, MIG airbrush thinner, i´ve also tried adding fluid retarders(different brands and i´ve tried adding little amounts and as much as 25% retarder), i´ve tried flow aid aswell, both pure and thinned with water.
Also tried glycerine in different amounts.

I´ve tried doing super light coats and heavier wet coats.
I´ve been spraying in the summer with quite a hot room and lately i´ve tried having the window open and cooling the room down alot before painting but it doesnt seem to make a difference.
I also tried spraying in a basement (colder and more humid than my normal spray spot in my house) at my friends house, but it didnt make any difference

I feel like i´ve tried everything and no matter what i try i allways get that same result (sometimes its even worse).
I´ve tried a bunch of different brands of paint aswell, Vallejo air, citadel, P3 but it doesnt seem to make a difference.


I´ve mainly been using a badger patriot 105 airbrush with a Sparmax TC-501ac compressor.
I also have a badger renegade chrome with a 0.2 needle, i get the same finish with this one

I got a bunch of painting projects that im itching to get going, but i´ve put them on hold until i would get a good painting result with the airbrush, but that doesnt seem to be happening, i could just go ahead and paint everything with a brush but i know it wont look as good, especially when i go on to painting tanks and large smooth surfaces.


Thanks!


Best regards
//Richard [/quot

You may want to try a single-action airbrush like a BADGER 200 or a PAASCHE H-1... I prefer these to a dual-action any day of the week...

My suggestion(which is what I did, and it built my confidence with airbrushes tremendously)--go to a community center, art supply store or someone knowledgeable and find and take an airbrushing course. They will teach you airbrushing basics, cleaning and maintaining your airbrush, and working with different media. I learned the artist approach to airbrushing on a flat two dimensional surface first, using acrylics and thinned watercolors and using masks and friskets (cut, patterned, and layered masks) to do artwork. I even did a little shirt airbrushing, which was fun. Then I went to the three dimensional surfaces (models), and it was a piece of cake. The most important thing I learned was cleaning and maintaining the airbrush, which when fouled, can be a real problem. Also was mixing and thinning paints, to which you will learn is a matter of feel and not an exact science by any means. This was a long time ago (20+ years) but the lessons have stayed with me. Check it out!

@Dennis M.Struk: Yes i´m only using acrylic paints, i prob shouldve been more clear on that.

The thinners i´ve used are listed in my first post and they are all designed to use when airbrushing.


@Peter Espada: Thanks, might not be a bad idea, but i feel like i have a pretty good grasp on how to use the airbrush and how to clean it, i´ve been using it for about a year now and i´ve watched countless of videos and read a bunch and even talked to several experienced airbrush users on how to use it.

But its still not that unlikely that im doing something wrong anyways, gonna look around and see if there´s any place that offer that service, cant hurt i guess.


@BoB: I will definately try some future out, i think i found out what it´s called over here, just need to go and buy some.
Do you mix the future with water first and then thin your paint?

I just think that it is helpful to learn to use an airbrush apart from the hobby--I could see what the airbrush could be used for, and what others were doing with it. And one thing I discovered--the paints we push through an airbrush are among the hardest to work with. Watercolors go through an airbrush so easily and you can do the most detailed work but of course that doesn't work out for modeling at all--but it shows what an airbrush can do.

FWIW, Richard, I think the issue you're having with the very slight amount of "orange peel" is likely caused by getting the airbrush very close to the subject while using fairly low air pressure and paint flow.

When acrylics are sprayed like this, they tend to not atomize finely. The air pressure is too low to "pull" the paint from the tip of the air brush and atomize it resulting in somewhat "largish" droplets of paint.

I would guess that you're reducing the air pressure and paint flow so that you can move in close with thinner sprayed lines and less overspray. However, you're now getting the slight orange peel whereas before with the same paint thinning ratios (reducing ratios) but with greater air pressure and paint flow, you were getting smoother coverage, but over larger areas.

Enamel paints will generally be more forgiving when reducing the air pressure and paint flow to get in close while keeping the same paint thinning ratios. This is because enamel paints (and lacquers) will still self-level even after some mid-air drying in the atomized (aerosolized) state.

Acrylic paints, on the other hand, retain their droplet shapes and will not combine on the surface to self-level once they start drying. The acrylic binder matrix has formed in mid-air and this transfers to spherical shapes on the surface.

The cures are two-fold, if this is the problem.

1. You must thin the paint more than normal when spraying close. A small additional of drying retarder may help, but too much will not significantly improve things. Just enough.

The paint must atomize (aerosolize) in fine droplets off the tip of the air brush and remain liquid until they land on the model surface so that they have time to self-level before drying. This time may only be a matter of moments or a few seconds, but it is critical.

Air pressure has to be high enough to do this at any given paint viscosity. Reduce the air pressure (to reduce overspray) and you must also reduce viscosity (thin the paint more). This is a constant.

2. You must then also make multiple coats to achieve coverage. The thinned paint will now have have less opacity, and will not cover in as few coats as it did previously. There is now less pigment in any given volume of the paint.

This is a limitation of materials and airbrushing.

On impermeable surfaces like plastic models, the surface cannot "soak" up the paint as it is sprayed. Artists and illustrators can hold much finer airbrushed lines with inks and acrylic paints because as they spray, the canvas or paper will soak up the paint allowing a more opaque line to be sprayed with very thin paint or ink without runs.

On plastic models, we must move the airbrush quickly to prevent runs and drips from the very thin paint needed to spray fine lines close to the subject. The model surface will not soak up the paint, it must surface dry. We can then make another pass, and another, and so on until we have opaque coverage.

So, thinner paint with multiple coats to achieve the same coverage.

HTH,

Good points all around.

Thanks for the in depth reply Mike Roof.

I have been spraying quite close to the models, like a few inches, i have thinned the paint quite abit though, i´ve been using vallejo air mostly which is allready thinned to be "airbrush ready" and i have then thinned that an additional 40-50%, the other brands i have been thinning to similar consistency to that aswell, so that is allready really thin (takes about 3-4 coats to get a good coverage), should i really thin it even more?

And i have mostly been spraying at about 15psi, those blue models were done around 20 psi.

several times when i´ve been spraying i have tried to spray at 10-15 psi on one model, 20psi on another and around 28-30 on another one all with the same paint mixture(thinned as described above) just to see the difference, and there havent really been much difference, they all came out kinda rough, i was spraying at the same distance tho (quite close) as i´ve been afraid of getting a even rougher finish if i sprayed from too far away.

Along with those tests i also tried varying the amount of paint i shoot out at each pass, but that havent really made a big difference either

It feels like i´ve allready been doing most of what you´re suggesting apart from maybe the distance.

And i have allways used a good amount of retarder in my mixes.

Do you think i should thin it even more? or spray from further away?

Short answer - yes.

Orange peel or any texture in the surface of the dried paint is because the paint is not self-leveling on the surface but has partially dried in the air.

There are really only few variables involved - air pressure, paint viscosity, paint flow rate, spraying distance, and spraying speed.

Assuming that you haven't suddenly installed a dehumidifier or turned the heat up in your house, and that your airbrush and compressor are clean and not faulty, these are the things you vary to adjust the quality of the paint job. If you have radically changed the ambient temperature and humidity of your work space, that could be the problem, but the solution, in this case is the same - decreased paint viscosity to compensate for the faster drying rate.

All of these variables have to be in balance so that the atomized paint arrives at the surface still wet. It doesn't have to stay wet long on the surface, but it does have to get there wet.

For a given paint viscosity, you must use an air pressure and flow rate that will atomize the paint and provide a volume to cover the surface with the desired size spray pattern at the desired spraying distance.

If the paint won't atomize, then you must either increase the air pressure, thin the paint, move the AB closer or do some (or a lot) of each.

If you're not getting coverage of the desired area, you must move the AB closer, increase the paint flow, slow down, move closer or some of all.

A rough texture of the paint on the surface means that the paint is drying in the air before it reaches the surface.

(Temperature and humidity do effect the drying rate, but remember, we're assuming that you HAVE NOT changed those in your work space. If you have, then back to square one...)

Your choices are thin the paint more, increase the air pressure, increase the flow rate, or move closer. Assuming that you have a specific and desired spray pattern size and distance, and you do not want overspray, you cannot increase the flow rate or air pressure significantly or move closer. This leaves the only variable as paint viscosity, and orange peel indicates that it is too high for the other variables and conditions.

However, if you can work with a larger spray pattern with more paint being applied, then you can vary all of these things.

It just depends on what you're trying to achieve (a smooth coat, yes, but at what size spray pattern, coverage, and tolerance for overspray?). However, the variables all remain in play, and how each interacts with the others also remains the same.

When experimenting, keep everything constant EXCEPT for a single variable. Modify that and test the results until you're getting the best results you can. Then make a change in one other variable, and test the results, again until the best result possible is obtained. Keep everything constant and make a change in only one other different variable at a time.

If you try to change everything at once (viscosity, air pressure, distance, flow rate, etc), you can't tell why you're getting an improvement or why things are getting worse. Change only one thing and you can quickly tell if the change is for the better or worse.

Perhaps you should try a different Brand of paint? However, I have good luck with Vallejo Model Air as well as Tamiya "acrylics." I also use an Iwata airbrush with a .2mm nozzle; the smaller the nozzle (and .2mm is REALLY small), the more air pressure and/ or thinner you need. These brushes were originally designed for inks, which are super thin.

Here is something for you to experiment with. Take the airbrush you have with the .2mm needle, and crank your pressure up to about 23-26psi. When using Vallejo Model Air paints, I add a few drops of retarder and flow-aid to the bottle as soon as I buy them. This gives me a smoother finish as well as makes spraying easier. Vallejo sells both these products, but I use Liquitex brand stuff because it is cheaper and easier to get. Anyway, thin your Model Air paints with about 10-20% thinner. I use Ammo of Mig thinner, which works well. Stir well, and you SHOULD get a nice, even finish that is rather translucent. Your paint should ALWAYS be shiny when it hits the surface, then dry to the luster of the paint. Using these paints, hold the airbrush about 2-3 inches away from the surface.

As well as I have gotten Model Air to airbrush well using the method above, Tamiya "acrylics" airbrush 10x better. They thin best with Tamiya's Lacquer Thinner, so Tamiya Acrylics arent technically lacquers, but "acrylic lacquers. I thin them 50% with their lacquer thinner, and airbrushing is a breeze. The PSI stays the same as the above. One thing to keep in mind is that this paint MUST be airbrushed from about 1-2 inches from the surface of the model, otherwize you will get a grainy finish. This can be fixed with airbrushing straight Tamiya Lacquer Thinner onto the paint, enough to make it shiny-wet. This will level out the surface.

Getting the hang of airbrushing is trial and error- it isnt something you can just start and do well. There are many variables, and everyone's climate and setup is different. Keep trying different paintz, thinning ratios, pressures, and distance from the model until you are happy with the result.

@Mike Roof: Allright, i will keep trying out different things, starting with thinning the paint even more.

I´ve mainly been spraying like 1-2 inches from the model so i shouldnt really go any closer?, pressures i´ve tried from 10 to 30 and i cant go higher than 30 with my current compressor, and going below 10 would cause other problems i guess? and as you said, that pretty much leaves paint consistency, or maybe spray further away, but wouldnt that just make the paint dry even faster? same with going at high pressures and further distance, wont that cause the paint drying faster aswell?

I´ve been trying lately to spray out enough paint so that the surface is wet, but i´ve still been getting grainyness, maybe some lands on the model wet and some dries mid air?

I will use the airbrush for priming, basecoating, zenithal spraying and some detail work, so pretty much every kind of work.

Thanks again for the help


@Jon Murphy: Thanks for the input, i have .5 airbrush aswell. I will keep trying different things, i´ll try out your method for vallejo air with the mig ammo thinner, i have a bottle of that allready so, havent really tried it that much, perhaps i´ll try out some tamiya paint aswell

There really is no "too close" or "too far" only too close for the paint viscosity, flow rate and air pressure. Same with too far - You may be too far for the paint viscosity, flow rate and / or air pressure. Adjust those variables and the distance could be just right.

In fact, each variable could be described like that. There is no "too high" (or too low) air pressure, just air pressure that's too high or low for the paint viscosity and / or flow rate.

I often spray as close as 1/2" (1 cm) from some things, especially to get some particular shading or camouflage effect. Alternatively, I may spray from 5-6" (25-30 cm) for larger areas with a single color. It just depends.

If you want fine lines or to cover small areas, you need to move the AB closer to the subject. That means that you will need less viscous paint and generally lower air pressure.

Coverage for larger areas is the opposite. You can use higher viscosity (with more opacity) paint, higher air pressure, and a greater flow rate from a greater distance.

Like trying to keep a three-legged stool level, when you change the length of one leg, you must change the length of the others.

@Mike Roof: That makes sense, i will do more tests with that in mind, thanks

Out of interest, are these white metal figures and if so is the finish the result of the metal texture showing through the thin, sprayed coats?

@Richard Long: they are plastic and they were all smooth before spraying

Hi, Bob! I generally use enamels for my airbrushing and brush painting. I like the enamels because I find that they seem to flow better as they are petroleum-based. The one time that I added FUTURE directly into an acrylic paint, it gelled into an un-godly mess... Glad that you have had good luck with FUTURE mixed into your acrylics. [/quote]

I agree. I tried everything with acrylics. Moved to Humbrol/MM enamels and airbrushing has been a dream. Really has improved my ability with the airbrush. I'm not fighting it all the stinking time like with Vallejo air. Greens and Browns clog my iwata hp cs quickly. Constantly cleaning between colors. So slow. Hey enamels have their drawbacks but the finish is superb and tge painting process is smoother ... Less frustrating. I also paint warhammer stuff. Your chaos cultists and death korps look fine to me. Gotta use acrylics for those I must admit. I'm using enamels for my Reaver Titan though.

@Tarheel_Law: Nice with another warhammer player , i really want to make acrylics work, but maybe i´ll try some enamels in the future but i dont really feel like buying a whole new type of paints that i will only use while airbrushing, thanks for the reply

Acrylic paints, on the other hand, retain their droplet shapes and will not combine on the surface to self-level once they start drying. The acrylic binder matrix has formed in mid-air and this transfers to spherical shapes on the surface.
Question is... would a flow-aid or improver break the tension and allow the droplets to flatten out?