Armor/AFV: British Armor
Discuss all types of British Armor of all eras.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Dragon Prices???????
wedgetail53
Visit this Community
Queensland, Australia
Joined: October 02, 2008
KitMaker: 658 posts
Armorama: 629 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 04:24 AM UTC
G'day Jupiterblitz

Wot? You build DML kits and you only have ONE spares box?

I've just sorted through my (mostly DML) parts in an effort to make the spare parts occupy less space than the 30 or so kits in the stash!

Yes, I agree that DML ensures that we have very full (and very expensive) spares boxes, and could not agree more that somewhat better planning on the part of DML would probably reduce the amount of excess plastic in the box and the price. Perhaps they should look at smaller sprues and more of them, then they wouldn't have to waste an entire large sprue when there is only one part from that sprue required.

Regards

Rob
Jupiterblitz
Joined: December 30, 2007
KitMaker: 885 posts
Armorama: 796 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 04:44 AM UTC
"Wot? You build DML kits and you only have ONE spares box?

I've just sorted through my (mostly DML) parts in an effort to make the spare parts occupy less space than the 30 or so kits in the stash!"


SDavies
Visit this Community
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: January 09, 2010
KitMaker: 979 posts
Armorama: 959 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 01:31 PM UTC
The cost of Dragon models has been steadily increasing for years, I expect to pay £50 for a model these days which, to me, is very expensive.

I tend to buy PE and Interiors to make them major projects

The other problem is availability of models. Since ModelZone in the UK closed down I have had trouble finding the Dragon model that I want as they always seem to be out of stock on E-models
philmmusic
Visit this Community
Solothurn, Switzerland
Joined: August 06, 2014
KitMaker: 70 posts
Armorama: 69 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 02:23 PM UTC
I think about times when there only where Tamiya kits... andn some terrible Revell and Italeri... then came Dragon and it was like christmas. well, I'm not a fan do DML, but they certainly made the whole model business shake, and for good.
philmmusic
Visit this Community
Solothurn, Switzerland
Joined: August 06, 2014
KitMaker: 70 posts
Armorama: 69 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 05:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I think about times when there only where Tamiya kits... andn some terrible Revell and Italeri... then came Dragon and it was like christmas. well, I'm not a fan do DML, but they certainly made the whole model business shake, and for good.



sorry for the bad English, seems I like was still asleep...
TopSmith
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
Armorama: 1,658 posts
Posted: Friday, January 30, 2015 - 07:57 AM UTC
You know, online sales and the loss of brick and mortar hobby stores spell the death for modeling as we know it. Kids visiting hobby stores where they can look and touch the kits are where we bring new builders into the hobby. Model contests at the LHS also attracts kids and let them see the possibilities. Take that away and the hobby members just get older until they are gone. I just can't imagine kids purposefully getting board with the video games and start searching online for something interesting to do and then stumbling on to Hobby Lobby and spending $80 with no idea about what models are all about.
Tojo72
Visit this Community
North Carolina, United States
Joined: June 06, 2006
KitMaker: 4,691 posts
Armorama: 3,509 posts
Posted: Friday, January 30, 2015 - 08:14 AM UTC
When I go to shows I see a lot of the guys bringing their kids and getting them involved in models also.Gundam and Sci-Fi kits are atracting kids to the hobby,and this World of Tanks online game is getting young people interested in the hobby also.So while the LHS is sadly going by the wayside.I don't think modeling will be fading away anytime soon.
WARDUKWNZ
Visit this Community
Auckland, New Zealand
Joined: June 01, 2011
KitMaker: 1,716 posts
Armorama: 1,638 posts
Posted: Friday, January 30, 2015 - 09:05 AM UTC
Anthony ,,funny you should mention world of tanks getting into the hobby cause of the game .... i was in my local LHS just today and a young little lad was in there with his dad buying a tank .. Tamiya Panzer IV ... so there at least is one more person joining our happy little family .
I am totally with you guys about the price of Dragons kits ,,you should see some of the prices here for their kits ..will make you cry or give you a heart attack .
I have been wanting Dragons M48A3 since i saw it but with a price between $70 to $90 NZ i cant afford it since i am an invalid ,,,then i saw one on an auction site here for $35 NZ ..now that i can afford ..no guessing here ..its in the mail .

Take the advice of the others on here ..wait and you will get it for much cheaper .

Phill

vettejack
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 07:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Whichever way you approach the kits and the hobby, chances are it's a lot cheaper than buying new bass boats and burning gas driving around lakes and such, cheaper (and probably less controversial - both at home and in the public eye, and maybe in the eyes of some laws...) than getting deeply into guns and shooting, cheaper than cars as a hobby, cheaper than flying as a hobby, and probably long-run cheaper than spending it in the bars and pool-halls!
:D Safer than booze, and likely cheaper than gambling at the casino, too!



Whew...I'm glad there are (were) others out there like me! I had the pair of jet skis to tinker with until I had my neck fused in four places. Sold those. Now, I'm still into guns, got two Harleys and 3 Corvettes for myself and the wifey. Talk about still having toys and then add hobbies to all that too! Throw in some baseball cards collecting, and walla...no time to do anything at length! None of them are expensive persay as I didn't buy them all at the same time. A smattering here and there with a buck or two to keep all the stuff 'fresh' is in order however. My aviation career taught me if you don't use stuff, it tends to break down quicker and becomes more expensive to repair (apply Murphys' Law here). Oh yea...one more 'hobby'...beer. Which reminds me...I'm empty!
vettejack
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 05:31 PM UTC
I know I'm off topic a bit here, but could not resist the input...a trip down memory lane for us older types...and since we're talking prices...how you saved your bubblegum/allowance money for one week back in the mid to late 60s to get that latest plastic model kit(Monogram, AMT, Aurora, MPC, Revell, IMC, Renwal, Jo-Han, Airfix, Vollmer, Glencoe, Lindberg, Faller, Pyro, Matchbox, Frog, etc.) sometimes for a quarter, maybe 35 cents, and god forbid, paying 50 cents for a kit!! Outrageous! LOL





This one you can't show the missus concerning our 'hobby'...she'll implement the idea right away!

KurtLaughlin
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 05:51 PM UTC

Quoted Text

AMPS # 711, 25 years plus...continuous.



AMPS has only existed for 22 years.

Membership numbers were specifically not used when the club was formed as Cookie Sewell did not care for people bragging about their low IPMS numbers. When the current computer system was adopted all existing members were entered and membership numbers assigned alphabetically, starting with 0100. The number is simply a label on a database field.

Just FYI.

Kurt Laughlin,
Former AMPS Membership Secretary
vettejack
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 06:01 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

AMPS # 711, 25 years plus...continuous.



AMPS has only existed for 22 years.

Membership numbers were specifically not used when the club was formed as Cookie Sewell did not care for people bragging about their low IPMS numbers. When the current computer system was adopted all existing members were entered and membership numbers assigned alphabetically, starting with 0100. The number is simply a label on a database field.

Just FYI.

Kurt Laughlin,
Former AMPS Membership Secretary



So goes the memory along with age. I've known Cookie as long as AMPS has been around as well. In fact, he and I judged armor together at the 2012 IPMS Nationals in Orlando. Thanks for the correction!

ALBOWIE
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: February 28, 2006
KitMaker: 1,605 posts
Armorama: 1,565 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 05, 2015 - 05:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The cost of Dragon models has been steadily increasing for years, I expect to pay £50 for a model these days which, to me, is very expensive.

I tend to buy PE and Interiors to make them major projects

The other problem is availability of models. Since ModelZone in the UK closed down I have had trouble finding the Dragon model that I want as they always seem to be out of stock on E-models



I pulled out an old DML kit box I bought when first released in 1995 - the T26E3 Pershing. It had a shelf price of $55 AUD. A Tamiya Kit was about similar pricing at the time. I was earning less than half what I earn know yet the new DML kits are $70 - 80. I reckon they have kept pace and if anything they have got a bit cheaper in the overall scheme of things in this country. Wages increase, Costs of Living Increase, Transport costs increase, Rents increase etc etc.
Cheers
Al
KurtLaughlin
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 05, 2015 - 06:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text


I pulled out an old DML kit box . . . I reckon they have kept pace and if anything they have got a bit cheaper in the overall scheme of things in this country. Wages increase, Costs of Living Increase, Transport costs increase, Rents increase etc etc.



NO!!! Anything short of 2015-state-of-the-art kits at 1972 prices is a RIP-OFF!!!

. . . At least that's what I read on the newsgroups.

KL
Dwaynewilly
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 15, 2006
KitMaker: 365 posts
Armorama: 18 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 05, 2015 - 10:01 AM UTC
Kids these days spend an average of $59 for a brand new video game for their consoles, and they usually have played it through to the end in a day or so. Those consoles like Playstation and X-Box usually go for around $350. The video game industry is a multi-billion dollar industry so it doesn't appear that the kids are scrimping on what they spend on their leisure entertainment.

Dwayne
mwells63
Visit this Community
Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: July 03, 2014
KitMaker: 82 posts
Armorama: 77 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 05, 2015 - 10:29 AM UTC
It looks like the price of kits is a problem no matter where you live. Our South African Rand is hovering somewhere around the value of toilet paper which makes the hobby very expensive here. Shipping costs from the EU or the U.S are approaching the level of insanity which leaves Hong Kong as the only realistic source of reasonably affordable kits. A USD 100 kit will set you back almost R 1200.00 here which is pretty steep. Not many guys can afford that. I am extremely fortunate that I work for an airline and manage to get to Hong Kong a few times a year which negates the shipping costs. It gives me the chance to buy a few kits to add to the stash without breaking the bank.
GeraldOwens
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
Armorama: 3,697 posts
Posted: Friday, March 06, 2015 - 04:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Due to taxes and customs regulations I purchase my kits at my LHS - apart from PE sets.

I remember very well when once people here brought the prices of DML kits in relation with the high oil price (=styrene).

Now the oil price is at a low level and scale model kits' prices are being kept on a high level and are still about to increase.

My guess:

1. Dragon started around 2005 their attempt to dominate the scale model market. And that happened via the most efftive instrument: Low price (kits).

2. Just take a look at any instruction of a DML kit: A LOT OF PARTS you won't need ever - but you still pay for.
The poorly configurated sprues provide a mass of styrene what are useless. The latest Wittmann Tiger 6730: What to do with three (3) turret roofs though I only need one? Four(!!!) turret mantlets, two front plates etc, etc.

A very expensive spare parts box...



I think you've got the wrong end of the stick, here. If Dragon revised each set of molds to exclude unneeded parts every time they offered a new variant of an existing subject, you'd actually end up paying more, not less. Cutting molds is horrendously expensive, which is why kit makers will offer so many subvariants of each vehicle or aircraft. When they only have to add a few extra parts to offer a brand new product, they can amortize their major mold-making expenses more quickly. By reusing sprues from existing molds to provide a few specific parts, they only waste a few cents worth of plastic (and we get a rich store of parts to use in correcting or converting other kits).
JPTRR
Staff MemberManaging Editor
RAILROAD MODELING
#051
Visit this Community
Tennessee, United States
Joined: December 21, 2002
KitMaker: 7,772 posts
Armorama: 2,447 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 16, 2015 - 04:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Whichever way you approach the kits and the hobby, chances are it's a lot cheaper than buying new bass boats and burning gas driving around lakes and such, cheaper (and probably less controversial - both at home and in the public eye, and maybe in the eyes of some laws...) than getting deeply into guns and shooting, cheaper than cars as a hobby, cheaper than flying as a hobby, and probably long-run cheaper than spending it in the bars and pool-halls!
:D Safer than booze, and likely cheaper than gambling at the casino, too!

It took me several years to get to it, but now I can freely say that "hey! I LIKE to buy model kits! They are neat, relatively harmless, generally (at least the kinds I buy) related to history (which I love), and I can share that with many other pretty neat folks!"



Bob, I will make your post my hobby dogma! So well put! A few years ago at a model railroad show, my bored wife sat down next to a granny; wifey started talking about 'nerdy' 'boring' model trains; granny told her that when her husband is late coming home he doesn't smell of perfume or booze, and that when he comes home with that fake innocent look that she knows he's smuggling in a train, not porn. Granny made my wife appreciate our hobby more.

Personally, when I talk to friends about their hobbies - golf, fishing, motorcycles, clubbing - I realize that several $100 kits a year are a drop in the bucket and a good investment!
JPTRR
Staff MemberManaging Editor
RAILROAD MODELING
#051
Visit this Community
Tennessee, United States
Joined: December 21, 2002
KitMaker: 7,772 posts
Armorama: 2,447 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 16, 2015 - 05:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Cutting molds is horrendously expensive...



About a decade ago a model manufacturer on a ship site weighed in to this conversation. He wrote that his average cost of tooling molds was $20,000 per sprue! For a big ship with 20 sprues, he had to decide how many he'd actually sell before the end of his life, and price the model accordingly.
chazsmith1
Joined: November 01, 2006
KitMaker: 30 posts
Armorama: 20 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 16, 2015 - 06:52 PM UTC
I used to work in Avenel Hobbies about 15 years ago and it was the best hobbyshop I was ever in. Had everything you needed from the kit, fruil tracks, resin upgrades, even the figures. I've moved away to Toledo Ohio and there is one hobbyshop here, a Hobbytown which isn't even close to what Randy used to offer. It's really ashame what's happening to the great places like that! I'd be happy to pay the higher prices if I could get everything I needed all in one place and just walk out the door with it.
johhar
Visit this Community
Alabama, United States
Joined: September 22, 2008
KitMaker: 476 posts
Armorama: 447 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 16, 2015 - 07:31 PM UTC
Where I live, which is fairly densely populated, a county of 400000+ just 70 miles from New York City, the LHS is all but dead. One closed. One an hour away never heard of Dragon. Another about 45 minutes away closed. One has at most 6 armor kits in stock at any given time. One guy went all mail order. And how can they decide which variant of any basic vehicle such as a Sherman or Panzer III to stock anyway. I don't blame them if there's no market but it kind of forces you to order online if you have to order at the store anyway.
lucasner
Visit this Community
Armed Forces Europe, United States
Joined: November 04, 2005
KitMaker: 84 posts
Armorama: 73 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 16, 2015 - 08:41 PM UTC
Many of you have probably seen it already, but in Issue 62 of Military Miniatures in Review (in my opinion one of the best publications out there) the editorial addressed kit prices. Besides increasing prices in plastic and the differences between currencies which is growing wider and wider...an interesting point is the change in the marketing model many of the companies are following.
It said that the big companies are looking for a faster return on each kit so they can put it right back into the next release. Since we used to have really high quality kits released at a much slower rate, nowadays, we get alot more kits in a much shorter period. So the company needs to make more money from each kit. The production runs are smaller to keep the inventory low. Maybe that's why I am always finding the new kits sold-out so fast???
I know nothing about such things, so I can't say right or wrong...but it was in interesting point.
Dave
M4A1Sherman
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 16, 2015 - 08:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Just wait it out and build something else in the meantime. Before you know it, a year has gone by and that Saladin will be damn near half price.



John's got it totally right. Wait a bit and the kit will be substantially cheaper. That is... unless you NEED the kit right now.



You can also try over on ebay- you can probably get the Saladin kit for a reasonable price, BUT WATCH OUT for Shipping Costs...
M4A1Sherman
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 16, 2015 - 09:01 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Due to taxes and customs regulations I purchase my kits at my LHS - apart from PE sets.

I remember very well when once people here brought the prices of DML kits in relation with the high oil price (=styrene).

Now the oil price is at a low level and scale model kits' prices are being kept on a high level and are still about to increase.

My guess:

1. Dragon started around 2005 their attempt to dominate the scale model market. And that happened via the most efftive instrument: Low price (kits).

2. Just take a look at any instruction of a DML kit: A LOT OF PARTS you won't need ever - but you still pay for.
The poorly configurated sprues provide a mass of styrene what are useless. The latest Wittmann Tiger 6730: What to do with three (3) turret roofs though I only need one? Four(!!!) turret mantlets, two front plates etc, etc.

A very expensive spare parts box...



I think you've got the wrong end of the stick, here. If Dragon revised each set of molds to exclude unneeded parts every time they offered a new variant of an existing subject, you'd actually end up paying more, not less. Cutting molds is horrendously expensive, which is why kit makers will offer so many subvariants of each vehicle or aircraft. When they only have to add a few extra parts to offer a brand new product, they can amortize their major mold-making expenses more quickly. By reusing sprues from existing molds to provide a few specific parts, they only waste a few cents worth of plastic (and we get a rich store of parts to use in correcting or converting other kits).



DITTO- Also, let's remember that cutting the MOVING parts that make the various molds open and close are EVEN MORE COSTLY- I know this to be a FACT. My nephew owns and operates a relatively small CNC Machine Tool business where I also worked about 15 years ago. His overhead costs would want to make you drink "DRAN-O"...
easyco69
Visit this Community
Ontario, Canada
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 2,275 posts
Armorama: 2,233 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 16, 2015 - 09:15 PM UTC
thats $94.96 CAD . Wow...thats crazy. But, if I really wanted it, I would pay it. The only problem I have is with old 1970's Tamiya kits..they still want $30-50 per model...which is just robbery. Then the newer Tamiya kits are hitting $80-100 , I can pay that with a Dragon kit, knowing I will get my $'s worth.
The cost of energy has gone up, transpotation etc..etc...
But I'm sure that price will go down later on. Its a new kit & once they flood the market..the prices will drop.

PS -
"I think you've got the wrong end of the stick, here. If Dragon revised each set of molds to exclude unneeded parts every time they offered a new variant of an existing subject, you'd actually end up paying more, not less."
***That's what the Cyber-Hobby White Box is - a Dragon kit with not extra's".