Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Mario Matijasic
Are Isrealis Using the M1A1?
2-2dragoon
Joined: March 08, 2002
KitMaker: 608 posts
Armorama: 268 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 10:51 PM UTC
Someone asked this on another group. I do not have a clue, but figures someone here may know if the IDF has M1A1's??
Weezul
Joined: May 24, 2002
KitMaker: 151 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 10:55 PM UTC
Yeah, they do use some.
Bravo-Comm
Joined: March 20, 2002
KitMaker: 525 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 10:58 PM UTC
I Dont Believe they are. They alrweady have thier own MBT i.e The MERKAVA. And they still use the M-60 in a modified conversion, I do not recall the Exact name. But you can look it up under the IDF site. And should be able to get a better idea of what Armor they currently have in thier inventory. But from what I know, The answer is No. I hope this is useful to you.DAGGER-1 "To The Victor , Go The Spoils"
Weezul
Joined: May 24, 2002
KitMaker: 151 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 11:02 PM UTC
I just did a search on Yahoo for 'Israeli M1A1'... Here is what I base my claim on:
Full article here.
Quoted Text
t seems that the Israelis have been pounding Palestinian villages on a weekly basis, killing hundreds of innocent Palestinians, including a majority of children, with M1A1 Abram tanks supplied by the United States. In addition, the Israelis have used F-16 fighter jets, Apache and Cobra attack helicopters, 155mm howitzers, M-16 automatic rifles, M50 machine guns and many other weapons and ammunition supplied by the U.S. government.
Moreover, the Israelis have used American-supplied bulldozers to demolish thousands of Palestinian homes. Just yesterday, the Israelis demolished 70 Palestinian homes. These home demolitions have caused thousands of Palestinian men, women, and especially children to remain without food or shelter.
This is a sin against mankind and yet we see no action from you or the State Department, especially since these weapons and ammunition are being used in offensive operations. These crimes would never be tolerated if they were similarly conducted by any other nation. How can you call this a balanced Middle East policy when you deny the Palestinians weapons and ammunition to defend themselves from a brutal occupation? Stones are not much protection against an M1A1 Abram tank.
Full article here.
Bravo-Comm
Joined: March 20, 2002
KitMaker: 525 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 11:13 PM UTC
SORRY GUY; I guess that I am not as informed about who DOES and DOES NOT use the M1A1, I did not mean to misdirect you. I knew that they used American Equipment. But was not aware that they used the M1A1.DAGGER-1
Weezul
Joined: May 24, 2002
KitMaker: 151 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 11:33 PM UTC
Hey, its ok. 
I didn't know either until I did a little scrounging.
I didn't know either until I did a little scrounging.
Bravo-Comm
Joined: March 20, 2002
KitMaker: 525 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 11:43 PM UTC
Rog-O, But I'm trying to figure out why they need Americam M1's. As I mentioned they have the Merkava, The Slayer, And other Heavies that do the job. So why does this country feel the need to make sure that EVERY ONE has our Equipment ?? I Dont Know It baffles me, I mean it's not like Israel of the early 40's.DAGGER-1 " To The Victor, Go The Spoils"
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 12:45 AM UTC
I beg to differ with the news article that states the IDF has M1A1s. They do not. I work the M-1 program We sell them to Saudi Arabia specifically 315 M1A2's, the Egyptians 555 M1A1 kits, and Kuwait 218 M1A2s. We tried to negotiate with the Greeks and the Turks, but nothing came from it so far. The IDF has ceratinly examined the vehicle, but they only have the heavily modified M-48s/M-60s. Source is the Armys Weapons System Handbook for 2002, page 195.
DJ
DJ
Weezul
Joined: May 24, 2002
KitMaker: 151 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 12:59 AM UTC
Oh well, goes to show what news people know. 
m60a3
Joined: March 08, 2002
KitMaker: 778 posts
Armorama: 396 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 01:05 AM UTC
Weezul
Joined: May 24, 2002
KitMaker: 151 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 01:19 AM UTC
I didn't even bother to see where it was from, just copy-pasted some stuff...
But yes, scary.
But yes, scary.
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 01:19 AM UTC
Bob--I trust someone above my pay grade will go to BG David and politely tell him he is wrong (big time).
It just ain't so....
DJ #:-)
It just ain't so....
DJ #:-)
Sabotshooter
Joined: May 11, 2002
KitMaker: 63 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 01:20 AM UTC
210 is right in his post. The Isralis use a beefed up M60 called the Sabre (they threw in a new fire control system, a 120mm cannon, and added on sloped armor), The Merkava is their primary MBT, having been designed for their specific needs. Last time I checked the only people to use the M1 Series of tank are us, Kuwait, Saudi, and Egypt.
Stephen Magee
SSG, 19K3H
2/69 Armor
Stephen Magee
SSG, 19K3H
2/69 Armor
staff_Jim
Publisher
Joined: December 15, 2001
KitMaker: 12,571 posts
Armorama: 6,599 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 01:22 AM UTC
Perhaps General David retired in the 70's and has no clue what kind of tanks the IDF uses. It smacked of a rant to me. Majority being children? How does he know that for certain? It almost sounds like a PLO propaganda piece.
Jim
Jim
Bravo-Comm
Joined: March 20, 2002
KitMaker: 525 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 01:47 AM UTC
So theen My initial Answer "WAS CORRECT"...GOOD, I was just starting to think that I did not know what I was talking about or Something else that I was not aware of was happening,. Thank Goodness for that.DAGGER-1
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 01:49 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Perhaps General David retired in the 70's and has no clue what kind of tanks the IDF uses. It smacked of a rant to me. Majority being children? How does he know that for certain? It almost sounds like a PLO propaganda piece.
Jim
Jim--I try to appreciate the views of others, but I must say that the referenced article is a bit much. In Christian charity, the only thing I can say is that the good general has the Merkava confused with the M-1 series. The Israelis have certainly played with the M-1 series systems, but they do not possess any.
DJ
puyallup7400
Joined: February 25, 2002
KitMaker: 93 posts
Armorama: 62 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 03:14 AM UTC
I hate to feed into this propaganda stuff. 
The quote was an attention getter. Looking at the link, I’ve seen their page before. Ya, they are scary. But it’s the rights and freedoms that allows these people to express all sorts of opinions is the reason some of us opt to put in the time to protect and preserve our nation. Freedom isn’t free; thank a vet and all that.
Who is the George Army National Guard?!?!?! The only things I get on a search are references to this letter. And a retired BG, is that a good old boy rank like COL Saunders?
I found a couple rebuttals that mirror some of my questions and opinions of BG J.J. David here, search down to the post by BassAss for the letter and replies follow.
I don’t see us supplying Israel with much in the way of munitions anyway. IMI makes enough to export worldwide. We were even issued Israeli 45 ammunition in Saudi.
Admittedly there are severe issues between both counties. Reminds me of a very Palestinian pro professor I had at U. Mass. Lowell. That was in 1991 and every one know I was still in the Army and back from the Gulf.
I again apologize for dragging out the BS from the BG out any further. Uninformed, biased and prejudiced disinformation really irritates me to no end. Unless it’s my own. LOL
Dave
The quote was an attention getter. Looking at the link, I’ve seen their page before. Ya, they are scary. But it’s the rights and freedoms that allows these people to express all sorts of opinions is the reason some of us opt to put in the time to protect and preserve our nation. Freedom isn’t free; thank a vet and all that.
Who is the George Army National Guard?!?!?! The only things I get on a search are references to this letter. And a retired BG, is that a good old boy rank like COL Saunders?
I found a couple rebuttals that mirror some of my questions and opinions of BG J.J. David here, search down to the post by BassAss for the letter and replies follow.
I don’t see us supplying Israel with much in the way of munitions anyway. IMI makes enough to export worldwide. We were even issued Israeli 45 ammunition in Saudi.
Admittedly there are severe issues between both counties.
Reminds me of a very Palestinian pro professor I had at U. Mass. Lowell. That was in 1991 and every one know I was still in the Army and back from the Gulf. I again apologize for dragging out the BS from the BG out any further. Uninformed, biased and prejudiced disinformation really irritates me to no end. Unless it’s my own. LOL
Dave
Bravo-Comm
Joined: March 20, 2002
KitMaker: 525 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 03:30 AM UTC
Hey M.S. Your Wisdom and remarks are welcome and appreciated. No one here REALLY ever gets offended unless they are outsiders. And then we dont really worry about it. Most folks that come to this site already pretty much understand the Ground Rules and have already played the game. SO no Biggie!!DAGGER-1: "To The Victor Go The Spoils"
ek
Joined: February 15, 2002
KitMaker: 17 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 04:32 AM UTC
first, as an israeli i am insulted from the very thought that someone even consider that crap to be true.
second, israel do NOT use m1a1 tanks. we use merkava varients and m60 varients.
hope i helped.
second, israel do NOT use m1a1 tanks. we use merkava varients and m60 varients.
hope i helped.
Folgore
Joined: May 31, 2002
KitMaker: 1,109 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 04:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I found a couple rebuttals that mirror some of my questions and opinions of BG J.J. David here, search down to the post by BassAss for the letter and replies follow.
Wow, Dave, that's quite the site. There's more arguing there than in a Jerry Springer show. At any rate, General David's articles does appear to be nothing but propaganda and lies.
Nic
2-2dragoon
Joined: March 08, 2002
KitMaker: 608 posts
Armorama: 268 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 05:05 AM UTC
SHEESH...just asked a question!! Didn't mean to start a war. Anyway, I did not think so, either, considering the Isreails' own ability to build tanks and modify M-60's and Centurians, etc. Give me a Merkava anyway for Urban warfare... with it's rear doors and engine in the front.
Thanks for the response.
Thanks for the response.
staff_Jim
PublisherJoined: December 15, 2001
KitMaker: 12,571 posts
Armorama: 6,599 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 05:15 AM UTC
Quoted Text
first, as an israeli i am insulted from the very thought that someone even consider that crap to be true.
second, israel do NOT use m1a1 tanks. we use merkava varients and m60 varients.
hope i helped.
ek,
Not to make light of the situation in Israel lately, but those little "mad" smilies in conjunction with your Shark avatar are rather scary.
I hope you get some time to model with all that's been going on.
Jim
stavka2000
Joined: February 22, 2002
KitMaker: 120 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 12:10 PM UTC
People,
That site looked like a propaganda site to me. Did you see how they kept using the words "american-supplied" or derivatives thereof throughout the essay?
Personally, I don't see why the US or Europe are selling their stuff to Egypt or Saudi, just because they are somewhat friendly to us (see Iran).
Also, 210CAV mentioned that the US tried to sell the M1 to Turkey and Greece. The most probable reason that didn't work was because my country (the Netherlands) already sold a lot of Leo 1Vs to Greece (as did Germany). It remains a mystery to me why most Nato countries are drawing down the force levels and they are seemingly rearming. Greece also got NF-5s, as did Turkey. They even build their own F-16s in Turkey. We should have kept the 1Vs ourselves and put them in a depot for when it's needed or use them in peace keeping missions. If these guys have money to build their own jets, they surely can buy new tanks. Not that I mind having them in Nato, of course.
The Israelis take care of their own specific tactical problems, as the Merkava already proved. Whatever they do not have, they invent.
That site looked like a propaganda site to me. Did you see how they kept using the words "american-supplied" or derivatives thereof throughout the essay?
Personally, I don't see why the US or Europe are selling their stuff to Egypt or Saudi, just because they are somewhat friendly to us (see Iran).
Also, 210CAV mentioned that the US tried to sell the M1 to Turkey and Greece. The most probable reason that didn't work was because my country (the Netherlands) already sold a lot of Leo 1Vs to Greece (as did Germany). It remains a mystery to me why most Nato countries are drawing down the force levels and they are seemingly rearming. Greece also got NF-5s, as did Turkey. They even build their own F-16s in Turkey. We should have kept the 1Vs ourselves and put them in a depot for when it's needed or use them in peace keeping missions. If these guys have money to build their own jets, they surely can buy new tanks. Not that I mind having them in Nato, of course.
The Israelis take care of their own specific tactical problems, as the Merkava already proved. Whatever they do not have, they invent.
staff_Jim
PublisherJoined: December 15, 2001
KitMaker: 12,571 posts
Armorama: 6,599 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 12:44 PM UTC
I had a second look at the actual site, the book they seem to be peddling (One Nation Under Israel), the author of that book, and every site that the author and book came up on Google. It's so sad when you see the Internet being used (in conjunction with books - because if it's published in a book it must be the truth right? - wrong) this way. You can find reviews on the book of course. But they are all by dubious sources and connected to sites that are preaching hate and lies. My god do people not know anything about history? About what has happened before (and will again if this kind of crap takes hold). When I see these sites and the people who so cleverly are using these poor ignorant souls to make money off of (note the site listed here sells TONS of this tripe) I am so saddened that they would not be smart enough to see it for what it is. People preying off others fears and apprehensions, just as Hitler did. And many before him (and after him too).
I'm done.
Jim
I'm done.
Jim
stavka2000
Joined: February 22, 2002
KitMaker: 120 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2002 - 12:55 PM UTC
You're absolutely right Jim. Fortunately, there are still those people smart enough not to believe that stuff (like pretty much everybody here at Armorama).
 |
WEB HOSTING BY
Copyright ©2021 Armorama and Kitmaker Network, a subsidiary of Silver Star Enterprises
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.