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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Sturm-Panther....really?
Biggles2
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Posted: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 10:19 PM UTC
Since their navy was kaput anyway, Hitler could just have made plans to mount running gear and tank tracks on the ships instead of designing the whole new Ratte! They would even be amphibeous! Waste not, want not!
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 01:40 AM UTC

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My only criticism was in reference to: the days of "Sturm-ing" were long past, as German forces were on the defensive, or retreat, on all fronts. Any redundant tank (Pz.lll/lV) chassis could be used as a platform for the 15 cm gun. Panther chassis were much better employed as tanks or Jagdpanthers. Of course, that's Herr Hitler for you!



If "GROFAZ", as the German Generals called him, had his way, he might have even robbed some of the Kriegsmarine heavy "battleship-style" guns and had them mounted in tank chassis...

("GROFAZ" = "Groester Feldherr der Aller Zeiten" = Greatest Field Commander of All Time, the term Hitler liked to use when referring to himself... Please forgive the "oe"- I'm the world's worst typist, and I don't know the procedure for producing an "umlaut"...)



GröFaZ = 'Größter Feldherr aller Zeiten'
"borrowed" from this page : http://sv.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gr%C3%B6FaZ

/ Robin
griffontech
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Posted: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 02:42 AM UTC

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Ho hum, another paper panzer, NONE of which saw service.

Yet, to date, there are NO decent kits of a Bergepanther A or G, and there were hundreds of them!

Regards

Rob

I never understood why people roll their eyes at Paper Panzers. That is like rolling your eyes at the Marine Assault vehicle from the Aliens movie. To me paper panzers are now bordering on almost science fiction. A "what if" scenario. If you take them in this context they are now looked at in a different light. They didn't exist, but what if they had?
I have started scratchbuilding a kit based on the tried and true Pz IV. In my mind this chassis built with sloped and slightly thicker armour instead of the slab-sided vertical armour plate. This vehicle would have gone a long way, saved the Reich a lot of wasted time and resources, and allow them to field more vehicles of a tried and true design. So, if I build this will people roll their eyes?
My 2 cents.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 03:27 AM UTC
The same silliness in priories that doomed the Third Reich is what many model builders are bemoaning with Paper panzer models. It may be someone's priority but it is not theirs. And as cloud cuckoo land as the items are why can't the same efforts be put into something that makes sense that did exist and in large numbers?


But then why did Testors waste so much money on their totally fictional F-19 model back in the day? Might as well put crosses on it it's as fictional as anything where a new ________ (fill in the blank) is what we really need! What-if and Sci-fi is big no matter if it's the 1946- Third Reich, Roswell or Mr. Spock.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Friday, March 06, 2015 - 06:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

My only criticism was in reference to: the days of "Sturm-ing" were long past, as German forces were on the defensive, or retreat, on all fronts. Any redundant tank (Pz.lll/lV) chassis could be used as a platform for the 15 cm gun. Panther chassis were much better employed as tanks or Jagdpanthers. Of course, that's Herr Hitler for you!



If "GROFAZ", as the German Generals called him, had his way, he might have even robbed some of the Kriegsmarine heavy "battleship-style" guns and had them mounted in tank chassis...

("GROFAZ" = "Groester Feldherr der Aller Zeiten" = Greatest Field Commander of All Time, the term Hitler liked to use when referring to himself... Please forgive the "oe"- I'm the world's worst typist, and I don't know the procedure for producing an "umlaut"...)



GröFaZ = 'Größter Feldherr aller Zeiten'
"borrowed" from this page : http://sv.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gr%C3%B6FaZ

/ Robin



Hi, Robin! I definitely need a tutorial on where and how to get umlauts and specialized stuff like the proper German "S" out of my keyboard. My typing "skills" were completely self-taught when I was just a little kid! I did that by surreptitiously typing on my sister's old Remington when she wasn't home! I also need to brush up on my German!!!

PS- GREAT little discussion that you contributed with your "urbandictionary.com" reference!
Biggles2
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Posted: Friday, March 06, 2015 - 08:21 PM UTC

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But then why did Testors waste so much money on their totally fictional F-19 model back in the day? Might as well put crosses on it it's as fictional as anything where a new ________ (fill in the blank) is what we really need! What-if and Sci-fi is big no matter if it's the 1946- Third Reich, Roswell or Mr. Spock.


I wasn't criticizing "Paper Panzer" kits (at least, not this time!), but the fact that the Nazi's speculated wasting Panther chassis for such a weapon.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 04:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text


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But then why did Testors waste so much money on their totally fictional F-19 model back in the day? Might as well put crosses on it it's as fictional as anything where a new ________ (fill in the blank) is what we really need! What-if and Sci-fi is big no matter if it's the 1946- Third Reich, Roswell or Mr. Spock.


I wasn't criticizing "Paper Panzer" kits (at least, not this time!), but the fact that the Nazi's speculated wasting Panther chassis for such a weapon.



A- The NAZIS wasted a lot of time and expense on stuff that they shouldn't have bothered with.

B- I'm glad that they DID waste time and expense on that "cloud-cuckoo-land" stuff. Imagine the war in Europe lasting for 6 months to another year longer... Frightening!!!

C- MONOGRAM also did an entirely inaccurate version of what the "F-19 Stealth Fighter" might look like. Both TESTORS and MONOGRAM based their impressions of the "F-19" on illustrations that were featured in a POPULAR SCIENCE (I forget which Issue, Volume, Year it was) magazine article- I remember buying this particular issue, and using it as a reference, to a degree, in building both my 1/48 TESTORS AND MONOGRAM "F-19s". Interestingly enough, both models featured Main Landing Gear based on the F/A-18's, which was just entering first-line service with the US NAVY and MARINE CORPS. The article showed the MONOGRAM version of the "F-19" in the current "Low-Viz" camo scheme, with BLACK leading edges on the strange, cranked, elliptical wing and inwardly canted short, rounded vertical stabilizers... Did TESTORS and MONOGRAM waste a lot of money? I don't think so, because enough aircraft modellers were lining up to buy these things; the conjecture over "Stealth-Technology" in the mid '80s-early '90s had certainly captured nearly everyone's attention AND imagination- The "Stealth Fighter" clearly was the latest and most mysterious "GEE-WHIZ!!!" item of that era...

In conclusion, I'd like to stress once again, since some of the modellers in this thread have pointed it out, that DRAGON should have come out with A new _____________ (fill in the blanks) instead of an "ALL-NEW!!! PANTHER WITH MOSTLY OLDER PARTS THAT WE WILL BE CHARGING YOU MORE MONEY FOR!!!"

My own preferences? An all-new US M8 Motor Howitzer Carriage, the M3 Lee/Grant that DRAGON failed to deliver, and an all-new M3A1 Light Tank, a "Lend-Lease" British M3 "Honey", and an entirely new M18... I'll repeat myself again: ACADEMY's Lee/Grant and Stuart kits have dimensional, shape and accuracy issues. Some will say "Oh, the ACADEMY Lee/Grant and Stuart kits are good enough, and we DON'T need them", but at the same time won't say a word or bat an eye when DRAGON hits us yet again with their UMPTEENTH Tiger I, Pz.III, or Panther...

ENOUGH, ALREADY!!!
DaGreatQueeg
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 05:12 PM UTC
Um ...... this thread has nothing to do with Dragon, although I guess why not blame them for this too.

The original question was directed at a newly released Real Model accessory set, a 15cm Mantlet, of which they make one to fit Dragon Pather kits and one to fit Tamiya Panthers .....

Quite why it's full of anti prototype and "paper panzer" sentiment is quite interesting. I say good on Real Model. If they sell well the monies might fund other more desirable subjects, although I suspect the result won't be either a Dragon price reduction or slew of Dragon Allied kit subjects.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 05:45 PM UTC

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M3 Lee/Grant that DRAGON failed to deliver, and an all-new M3A1 Light Tank, a "Lend-Lease" British M3 "Honey", and an entirely new M18... I'll repeat myself again: ACADEMY's Lee/Grant and Stuart kits have dimensional, shape and accuracy issues.
ENOUGH, ALREADY!!!



You realize that with Dragon's recent track record they're more likely to do an M3 Lee like how they did the M103.

Which means the Academy kit would still be better.


Honestly if the Germans wanted to a do Sturm of the Panther they'd do something more like the Sturm Tiger using a Jagdpanther chassis as opposed to replacing an excellent anti-armor weapon with so little gun on front line combat tank.
Eloranta
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Hame, Finland
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 08:57 PM UTC
I actually have SturmPanther conversion kit somewhere, I was planning to build it using Tamiya steel wheel version as base. But like the "real" thing, this just might be one of those projects that never see that finished stage...
Biggles2
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 11:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text



The original question was directed at a newly released Real Model accessory set, a 15cm Mantlet, of which they make one to fit Dragon Pather kits and one to fit Tamiya Panthers .....

Quite why it's full of anti prototype and "paper panzer" sentiment is quite interesting. I say good on Real Model. If they sell well the monies might fund other more desirable subjects, although I suspect the result won't be either a Dragon price reduction or slew of Dragon Allied kit subjects.


I don't think any of you readers are even getting my point. I'm NOT questioning Real Models' decision to produce this; I'm questioning the Third Reich's decision to even contemplate this waste of necessary and precious vehicles!
DaGreatQueeg
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2015 - 12:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text


I don't think any of you readers are even getting my point. I'm NOT questioning Real Models' decision to produce this; I'm questioning the Third Reich's decision to even contemplate this waste of necessary and precious vehicles!



No, I get it and agree with you Biggles. Just thought the topic needed to be steered back on track and away from becoming another anti-Dragon rant (which I can understand where they're valid!).

On this one I think in the Germans defence even they realised it was a waste of the chassis at that time as it didn't go into production. If they'd had more resources it might have been a different story though as making variants on a common chassis does makes some sense.
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