next build will be the Panzer IV Ausf J mid-production Dragon smart kit. Not sure what markings to do t - there is an ambush scheme one that could be a challenge or a choice of yellow/green and yellow/brown/green... will also give me a chance to try white-tac masking I think..

can anyone confirm if this needs zimmerit applying (and if so is there AM available or will i need to do my own?)?

photos to follow

The last type, the Ausf.J, began to roll of the factory line at Nibelungenwerke (at St Valentin, Austria) and Vomag, as Krupp was now involved in other tasks, and incorporated more mass-production oriented simplifications, rarely welcomed by the crews. A first example was the removal of the electric turret drive, traversing being done manually, sacrificed for for an additional 200 liters of fuel capacity, raising the operational range to 300 km (186 mi), a lesson hard learnt from the Russian campaign. Other modifications included the removal of the turret visor, pistol ports and turret AA mount in favor of a Naehverteidigungswaffe mount. Zimmerit was not applied anymore, nor was the Schurzen, replaced by cheaper Thoma type wire-mesh panels. The engine's radiator housing was also simplified. The drive train lost one return roller, and two Flammentoeter (flame-suppressing) mufflers were installed, as well as Pilze 2-ton crane mount sockets. More critically, the late Panzer III SSG 77 transmission was mounted, despite it being clearly overloaded. Despite these sacrifices, the type J monthly deliveries were increasingly threatened by Allied bombings and the shortages caused, and only a total of 2970 were built until the last days of March 1945, Compare that to the total planned of 5 000, including modified models sporting the Panther turret. All prototypes developed by 1942 were dropped, in favor of the Panther. The chassis was also used for some variants.
Tanks Encyclopedia
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/Panzer_IV.php

Zimmerit was applied from Sept. 1943 to Sept. 1944. Looking at the box art for the DML mid-production ausf. J, the production ran from Aug.-Sept. 1944. So the simple answer is "yes" - your vehicle should have zimmerit although there may have been a few vehicles at the end of the production run which didn't have it applied. Not aware of any AM zimmerit for panzer IVs - will probably need to make your own!

There are several sets available. Just search Google.

If I remember correctly Atak makes a resin set and Eduard makes a PE set.

Kevin

seems lots for tamiya but none for dragon... anyone know if the tamiya zimmerit sheet (ie tamiya sheet for tamiya suf j) is likely to fit the dragon version?

or if anyone canlink to any specifically for this kit...

otherwise i will have to make my own and i think this kit deserves better ;-)

You can always use the one made for the Tamiya kit and just repair the areas where it doesn't match. It would beat doing the whole thing from scratch.

Rob

If you are willing to try, I have used miliputt in the past to do zimmerit, it has a longer drying time and is a little more forgiving in terms you and remove it easily before it fully dries.

Here is a series of pictures of a kit I have used miliputt on:





I applied it with a round tooth pick which allows you to roll it out evenly and thin. I then used the Trumpeter tools for creating the pattern. You can also use the end of a flat screw driver.

Being as you are talking about a "mid-production" J built sometime in "August or September" of 1944 - and probably at the St. Valentin / Nibelungenwerke... and factory zimmerit application was halted early in SEP 44, and as zimmerit application actually added several days to tank production time... I would suggest that many - maybe 1/2 or more, of the several hundred IV-J produced in this period could well have left NW lacking zimm...

I've toyed with adding this kit to my stash and even building one, as I love the full-skirted long-gun IV and also don't want to have to add zimm if I don't need it. I am sure that you can do it without zimm and be OK! Of course, if you are using some specific markings-set of a "known tank"... you will want to know if your subject did, or did not, have zimm.

There is another wrinkle worth considering in the zimm story and these "cusp period" IV's: FACTORY zimm was officially stopped from 09 SEP 44. But field units continued to apply zimm in some cases into early OCT 44. So, if one of these middie J "escaped" NW without zimm, it could still have made it to a higher-level depot shop and been "unit-zimm'd"! In which case, you may want to consider a DIY coat built on some photos of these non-factory zimm jobs, if you can reasonably identify any such!

Just a thought and maybe a little teaser!

Bob

of course, if i look at the review on this wonderfulsite:

http://www.armorama.co.uk/review/5036

i get told:

Now, two last things for you to consider while building a mid-type Ausf. J: in September 1944, the order to stop applying Zimmerit was sent to the assembly firms, and wire mesh skirts with different style holding rails replaced the soft steel plates on the hull sides. As I already mentioned earlier, the FFI Panzer IV should not have hull Schürzen but should have Zimmerit, while the “721” vehicle should not have Zimmerit.

and as that was one i was considering...... no zimmerit this time round!!!!

"Field units continued to apply Zimmerit until October 1944"

Do you have any sources to support that statement? I'm my saying that it's incorrect but I don't think I've come across it before. Given that factories had a more plentiful supply of labour for such tasks than depots or line units, I'd have thought that such things would be less likely as vehicles moved closer to the front line from the factory. In any case, given that this coincides with the advent of factory-applied camouflage schemes, downstream recipients applying Zimmerit implies a need for an almost total repaint, which seems likes huge waste of effort and scarce resources to do given that command had already decided to ditch Zimmerit and ditch unit-level camouflage painting.

I have to agree, with Robert. It is very unlikely that zimmerit was applied to already fielded vehicles.

that was my thought, mind i have the same thought over captured vehicles - would they really have been repainted? maybe markings painted over but a full neat paint job???

now i am wondering if i will do my own zimmerit, i love the way it looks, just need to work out if squadron green stuff can be used to do it as thats what I have it.... will do a test on a spare piece from an old kit....

anyway, will start posting photos of this build today/tomorrow

There's photo evidence that this was done, though I can't verify dates. Here's one example from the Squadron Mk IV book:







Again, there's photo evidence of this happening, too (though I don't have one at my fingertips to post). If the vehicle was in service for any length of time, you can pretty well bet it was repainted.

started.....


P3280001 by Rob Worth, on Flickr


P3280002 by Rob Worth, on Flickr


P3290003 by Rob Worth, on Flickr


P3290004 by Rob Worth, on Flickr


P3290005 by Rob Worth, on Flickr

I'm not disputing that Zimmerit was sometimes applied to vehicles after they had left the factory, examples including the Pz III Ns of Pz Brig Nowegen (last N was built in May 1943, pre-Zimmerit - Jentz says it was added 'in 1944' in PT 3-3) and a 251 Schuetzenpanzerwagen but that's some way from your assertion that units (or depots) continued to apply it for a month after the factories had been ordered to cease. It appears that such a claim is currently unsupported by evidence, although that does not, of course, render it untrue.

It seems entirely feasible that some was available in Werkstatt units, probably for patching damaged areas during repairs, so maybe that is the source of what was used in those instances. It's quite a way from units receiving vehicles without Zimmerit after 09/1944 and deciding to carry on the practice for no obvious reason however, given the desperate need for equipment In combat formations after the disasters of July 1944 on both fronts.

I've tried Squadron putty but found that it is hard to get it adequately thin (real Zimmerit is about 5mm on the ridges on originals I have examined) so I prefer two-part epoxy types like Milliput and Magic Sculpt. There are those who swear by the two-part Tamiya stuff and Mori-Mori too and they get good results with them. However, I don't own either so have no personal experience of them.

Practice on something first (plastic milk cartons are useful if you don't have any duff old models around) to gain experience though and keep it thin!

cheers Robert.... yeah the squadron green was ok but rough... i do ave some yellow/blue putty but dont think that wll adhere to the surface (hasnt so far when i have tried) unless i nee to mould it on before it dries out...

i had thought of dong front, glacis and rear as field applied, thinking the rest the work crew would say was coered by scheurtzen so was a wate... or perhap a repaired hatch taken from another vehicle that was already zimmeritted and aa different camo scheme....

anyway, will ponder as i build

That was the reason I added that the date couldn't be verified... just saying it could have happened.

My point EXACTLY.

Did unit zimming actually even occur after factory zimm application stopped by formal order as of COB 08 SEP 1944? Does anyone really know? It's been stated and it was, I am sure, a real POSSIBILITY. That's not to say who did or didn't, or how many were done. It's only something which loiters out there in history for us to consider. That's why I passed it along here. This offers Rob-W and others an interesting POSSIBILITY they may wish to explore. Debate about it's detail seems more a discussion fraught with volume and word-count than with any actual detailed knowledge, I think! The POINT is that it DOES raise an interesting modeling opportunity around these "cusp-production" IV-J.

To categorically assert that "all" IV-J produced in the modeled period ("AUG 44 - SEP 44") "were factory zimm'd", and that thusly, the "accuracy-minded modeler MUST zimm his kit" is, bluntly speaking, wrong. The truth is that SOME were, and others not - depending on exactly when they completed assembly within that period. This was a "cusp period" for German AFV production, in that the actual item completion date matters!

Consider this - zimming took several days. Think about a series of tanks starting the zimm process on each of several days in early SEP 1944... Some on 02, some on 03, some on 04, etc. What happened to the zimm started application on, say, 07 SEP 44? The job is mid-point on 08... and then Herr Direktor shows up and says "STOP! We are no longer to do this! This is an official order!". The job is part-done, and much of the zimm is still moist. What do suppose would have happened next?

Did Herr D.. tell his foreman to immediately strip all that incomplete zimm off and send the cleaned tanks to "Paint"? (After all, this did come down as an official production-change order...)

Did Herr D.. tell his foreman to "go ahead and wrap up all those jobs on the floor and send them on to "Paint". And do NOT start any new zimm jobs!"? (In the spirit of "we've already done most of it, let's get these finished and not waste that effort")

Did some half-dones actually just "stop where the job was at and move on" and end up rolling out as partially-zimmed tanks?

Frankly, we most likely don't know anything about this in detail. We "know" that factory application was ordered to be stopped in SEP 1944. We do NOT know specifically how that order actually implemented in detail and over what time-frame.

We also do NOT know anything (or much - trying to be inclusive and generous, here) for sure about how long any field application process may have actually continued once orders started trickling down. It would be surpassingly strange to conclude, I think, that units all received and immediately acted on some categorical order to "stop this right now" at exactly the same day - the same scenarios related above for factories applied to anyone doing zimm anywhere. It took time, decisions needed to be made and implemented, etc. And units were at war, which doubtless helped concentration on this detail a lot!

This is put "out there" to provide folks a possible option, should they wish to explore this really vaguely-known (and, I do suspect, extremely rare if ever actually done) possibility in the zimm cusp-phase in tank production.

Just think of the real possibilities hidden behind implementation of what many appear to think was a black-and-white, instantaneous step in equipment production!

Cheers!

Bob

OK, so Mr Woodman and I agree that we don't know what happened once the orders were recieved beyond that at some point in September 1944, the application of Zimmerit at factories stopped. That has been my position since I first read it in years ago.

My query was regarding the veracity of the statement "But field units continued to apply zimm in some cases into early OCT 44." as I had not heard this before and was hoping that some evidence (primary source or reliabale secondary) had surfaced to support the assertion.

It now appears that it was stated as a "POSSIBILITY", so I see now that I must have misread the original post where it was pointed out that it was just a possibility, which it obviously was because we don't know. Having said that, I'm fortunate never to have had to live or work in an authoritarian state at war so I have no direct experience of how quickly orders from on high were enacted, particularly where things did not run as smoothly as intended. So I'm perfectly happy with possibilities existing, particularly where evidence exists that it did happen.

Apologies if I have created confusion or bad feeling as a result of my misunderstanding.

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but was zimmerit applied to the ausf.F? I know it was being manufactured during the timeframe zimmerit was implemented.

guys, as much as I like to feel popular with a thread that has a few replies, can I politely ask us to stop discussing Zim now ;-) have decided NO ZIM on 721 .......

little update - started on the suspension - plan is to do the suspension then do the tracks (my usual 2-half construction)

P3310002 by Rob Worth, on Flickr

I'd say no Zimmerit (at least when they left the factory) on Pz IV F (whether kurz or lang) as the F1 was built up to February 1942 and the F2/G up to June 1943 (per Panzer Tracts 4). That looks to be outside the timeframe to me.

I don't think I've ever seen a photo of one with it either, not that this proves anything.