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just got the new Dragon Conqueror
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
Armorama: 3,034 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 12:07 AM UTC
My pre_order from last Oct. finally got here. It is such a gorgeous tank i just had to have one. Looked through the kit and saw that the tracks were in 2 pieces ( 4) Had to shake my head and wonder what was up with that. Then I saw it. the gun tube in 2 pieces. SERIOUSLY ??!!!! The constant bragging about slide mold technology and you give me a 2 piece ( lengthwise) barrel? Still ticked about the BL10 on the ISU 152. So i guess wait for aftermarket to catch up. Shame on you Dragon just shame. Your Black Label series has just been disappointment after disappointment
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 12:33 AM UTC
I saw that on the sprue and instructions shots up the internet. The tracks I can understand. Once piece and they could twist all over the place in the box. It's happened before with DS tracks and the box may not be big enough to store the track properly so two lengths.
But the gun barrel in this day and age?
But they remembered the 30 caliber machine gun so it is one step ahead of the Saladin.
But the gun barrel in this day and age?
But they remembered the 30 caliber machine gun so it is one step ahead of the Saladin.
MikeyBugs95
Joined: May 27, 2013
KitMaker: 2,210 posts
Armorama: 1,712 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 12:37 AM UTC
Wait, didn't the box drawings say that it has a one piece barrel? Unless the 2 piece only came with the pre-orders, then the one piece dreck is an outright lie.
ninjrk
Joined: January 26, 2006
KitMaker: 1,381 posts
Armorama: 1,347 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 12:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Wait, didn't the box drawings say that it has a one piece barrel? Unless the 2 piece only came with the pre-orders, then the one piece dreck is an outright lie.
To be fair, there is this teeny tiny disclaimer underneath. . .
*actual product may not be exactly as shown
That aside, if the kit is actually accurate and builds well I can live with this.
Matt
TankSGT
Joined: July 25, 2006
KitMaker: 1,139 posts
Armorama: 946 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 01:09 AM UTC
Accurate Armour's gun barrel was in 3 pieces lengthwise and resin so that doesn't sound too bad. This is a Black Death kit we shouldn't expect too much from Dragons back benchers. How was the price? Since I built the AA kit this one I'll pass on unless I find it dirt cheap.
Tom
Tom
Beastmaster
Joined: January 27, 2009
KitMaker: 592 posts
Armorama: 588 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 01:31 AM UTC
Slide moulded barrels should be standard now so that is disappointing. Not to mention the DS tracks.
young_sven
Joined: May 14, 2010
KitMaker: 749 posts
Armorama: 743 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 01:52 AM UTC
Last I looked Tamiya, Meng, Takom and others also have two part barrels in new kits.
Not defending Dragon Black Label, just saying. Seems like sometimes we're just looking for reasons to trash these BL kits, even with reasons that don't seem to bother us with other manufacturers.
Yes, its pretty darn poor to announce one piece barrel and then not include one, but what about the rest of the kit, ie the other 99% of the box contents? Does that seem ok?
Not defending Dragon Black Label, just saying. Seems like sometimes we're just looking for reasons to trash these BL kits, even with reasons that don't seem to bother us with other manufacturers.
Yes, its pretty darn poor to announce one piece barrel and then not include one, but what about the rest of the kit, ie the other 99% of the box contents? Does that seem ok?
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
Armorama: 6,097 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 02:37 AM UTC
Whether it turns out to be a turd or not (and I have my suspicions) what's the deal with a two piece barrel? I've never had a problem with them. When I open a kit it's the first thing I cement together, so that months (years) later the thing is fully cured and ready to sand. The Flex-i-File is great for that by the way.
Beastmaster
Joined: January 27, 2009
KitMaker: 592 posts
Armorama: 588 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 04:28 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Whether it turns out to be a turd or not (and I have my suspicions) what's the deal with a two piece barrel? I've never had a problem with them. When I open a kit it's the first thing I cement together, so that months (years) later the thing is fully cured and ready to sand. The Flex-i-File is great for that by the way.
Well they are a bit of a pain. It's very hard to not get a seam no matter how careful you are and again these things should start being standard now. Especially when you announce them and then don't deliver. Dragon seems to have lost it's way recently.
Anto992
Joined: June 11, 2012
KitMaker: 227 posts
Armorama: 212 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 04:37 AM UTC
Hello Gents,
I can live with a two piece gun barrel, but I don't get the crac with the tracks; Dragon were making individual track links for every and any German vehicle that they were producing a couple of years ago...even putting the lose links in separate plastic bags... Now we get rubber track links (four in this kit) I think Dragon have lost the plot with this backwards step, especially with the size of the track links on the Conqueror... I will reserve comments on the rest of the kit till I get one.
Steve any pics of the sprues to show us?
Anto
I can live with a two piece gun barrel, but I don't get the crac with the tracks; Dragon were making individual track links for every and any German vehicle that they were producing a couple of years ago...even putting the lose links in separate plastic bags... Now we get rubber track links (four in this kit) I think Dragon have lost the plot with this backwards step, especially with the size of the track links on the Conqueror... I will reserve comments on the rest of the kit till I get one.
Steve any pics of the sprues to show us?
Anto
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 06:03 AM UTC
Sprue shots and scans of the instructions can be found here. http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10299800
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 12:51 PM UTC
Quoted Text
.. Then I saw it. the gun tube in 2 pieces. SERIOUSLY ??!!!! ... So I guess wait for aftermarket to catch up. ....
Yee-Haa !! That's really good news !! This means that there
is a fair chance (at least 50/50) that there will be some
aftermarket barrels so that I can get one for the resin
Conqueror (from Cromwell) lurking in my stash.
With a little luck there might even be some aftermarket
tracks so that I can replace those as well :-)
The future is bright indeed :-)
Now we just need a good Chieftain
/ Robin
ChrisDM
Joined: January 01, 2010
KitMaker: 717 posts
Armorama: 697 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 03:18 PM UTC
a two-piece barrel is not the end of the world
I have a ton of measurements of Conqueror which I made myself. I'll reserve judgement till I get the kit, but yes it looks OK on the sprues in pictures. But then almost all kits do....
I'm still hoping Black Label finally got it right this time
I have a ton of measurements of Conqueror which I made myself. I'll reserve judgement till I get the kit, but yes it looks OK on the sprues in pictures. But then almost all kits do....
I'm still hoping Black Label finally got it right this time
Keef1648
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 04:59 PM UTC
Having built both AA and Cromwell Conquerer tanks I can assure you the resin barrels warp and care is needed to get them (parts) to mate correctly and sit correctly. later, as life goes on, they can droop due to the length, so the plastic one will (should) fair better until a metal one gets produced in due course...
Suggested retail on the shelf is in the low end of the $80.00 mark, I will put them on the shelf well below that point..
Keith.
Suggested retail on the shelf is in the low end of the $80.00 mark, I will put them on the shelf well below that point..
Keith.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 05:40 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Then I saw it. the gun tube in 2 pieces. SERIOUSLY ??!!!! The constant bragging about slide mold technology and you give me a 2 piece ( lengthwise) barrel?
I have not followed all the recent releases that had one-piece barrels, but have there been any with a bore evacuator (BE) like the L1? The one I recall (M48A3, with the BE immediately behind the muzzle) had split the barrel into two pieces anyway. With a BE located in the middle of the tube, there might be technological limits to the process that prevent it being molded in less than two or three pieces.
KL
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 06:49 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThen I saw it. the gun tube in 2 pieces. SERIOUSLY ??!!!! The constant bragging about slide mold technology and you give me a 2 piece ( lengthwise) barrel?
I have not followed all the recent releases that had one-piece barrels, but have there been any with a bore evacuator (BE) like the L1? The one I recall (M48A3, with the BE immediately behind the muzzle) had split the barrel into two pieces anyway. With a BE located in the middle of the tube, there might be technological limits to the process that prevent it being molded in less than two or three pieces.
KL
If it is possible to split the barrel lengthwise (as in this kit) then it would be possible to mold the barrel as one piece. The slide-molding would be needed to get the "hole" in the muzzle. Molding in two halves makes it possible to make a barrel that is hollow (all the way if needed/wanted) without any slide molding. In both cases the mold/molds have to be perfect half-circles otherwise the resulting barrel will not have a circular cross section.
To get a perfectly circular barrel usually requires a lathe to make a turned barrel. If the bore evacuator isn't concentric with the barrel it will be difficult to produce the whole barrel in a lathe so the bore evacuator needs to be a separate part.
Whether the barrel is molded as one rod or two half-rods there will be a seam to handle, either a mold seam or a glue seam ...
With a slide molded muzzle the opening will probably be circular but there is no guarantees for this .....
/ Robin
Anto992
Joined: June 11, 2012
KitMaker: 227 posts
Armorama: 212 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 06:51 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThen I saw it. the gun tube in 2 pieces. SERIOUSLY ??!!!! The constant bragging about slide mold technology and you give me a 2 piece ( lengthwise) barrel?
I have not followed all the recent releases that had one-piece barrels, but have there been any with a bore evacuator (BE) like the L1? The one I recall (M48A3, with the BE immediately behind the muzzle) had split the barrel into two pieces anyway. With a BE located in the middle of the tube, there might be technological limits to the process that prevent it being molded in less than two or three pieces.
KL
Hi Kurt, they could have done it like AFV club did there British L7 105mm on the Nato Centurions, that was a solution to the problem.
Anto
Anto992
Joined: June 11, 2012
KitMaker: 227 posts
Armorama: 212 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 06:54 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Sprue shots and scans of the instructions can be found here. http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10299800
Thank you Stephen, I hadn't seen that.
Good price too.
Anto
Cantstopbuyingkits
Joined: January 28, 2015
KitMaker: 2,099 posts
Armorama: 1,920 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 08:00 PM UTC
Quoted Text
How was the price?
Tom
$84.99! I really have no idea how they can overestimate the value of their kits so extremely and get away with it.
TankSGT
Joined: July 25, 2006
KitMaker: 1,139 posts
Armorama: 946 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 08:53 PM UTC
That is just too high. I paid $80 for the horrible M103A2 to help out my local hobby shop. I'd pay $40. Any one check Lucymodel. I'll check after the post. I paid $144 for the AA kit several years ago but that one is very nice. It was a tough build though.
Tom
Tom
Tojo72
Joined: June 06, 2006
KitMaker: 4,691 posts
Armorama: 3,509 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 09:17 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextHow was the price?
Tom
$84.99! I really have no idea how they can overestimate the value of their kits so extremely and get away with it.
They probably "get away with it" because enough people buy them to make it profitable for them.
ninjrk
Joined: January 26, 2006
KitMaker: 1,381 posts
Armorama: 1,347 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 10:37 PM UTC
As with most Dragon stuff, if you don't need it immediately it's much cheaper on-line. $53 at HLJ, for instance. Even with shipping its way cheaper.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 11:59 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Kurt, they could have done it like AFV club did there British L7 105mm on the Nato Centurions, that was a solution to the problem.
I just looked at the instructions for that . . . It looks like a metal tube with a split plastic bore evacuator. That's quite a bit different than a one-piece, all plastic barrel.
Also, in my mind, if you can make the split BE look right, with its tube, flanges, and end faces, you ought to be able to make a split plastic tube look right as well. If you can't get a two-piece barrel together, you wouldn't like the split BE either.
KL
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Friday, May 08, 2015 - 12:05 AM UTC
Quoted Text
If it is possible to split the barrel lengthwise (as in this kit) then it would be possible to mold the barrel as one piece. The slide-molding would be needed to get the "hole" in the muzzle. Molding in two halves makes it possible to make a barrel that is hollow (all the way if needed/wanted) without any slide molding. In both cases the mold/molds have to be perfect half-circles otherwise the resulting barrel will not have a circular cross section.
To get a perfectly circular barrel usually requires a lathe to make a turned barrel. If the bore evacuator isn't concentric with the barrel it will be difficult to produce the whole barrel in a lathe so the bore evacuator needs to be a separate part.
Whether the barrel is molded as one rod or two half-rods there will be a seam to handle, either a mold seam or a glue seam ...
With a slide molded muzzle the opening will probably be circular but there is no guarantees for this .....
/ Robin
The challenge that I see is that big lump of plastic in the center, the bore evacuator. A one piece tube with integral BE would be a magnet for a shrink mark. No casting process likes large changes in section or large heat reservoirs near thin sections like that. I just wonder if we are expecting and demanding the impossible?
KL
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Friday, May 08, 2015 - 10:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I just wonder if we are expecting and demanding the impossible?
Indeed.
A way to solve that, of course, would be to put an injection gate on the BE, oh, wait, we don't want those either, do we.
There are limits to the technology and sometime you just can't get everything you want.
Paul
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