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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Panzer 38t Field Maintenance Unit build
lanrosta
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Posted: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 07:04 AM UTC
I have decided to do a Panzer 38t Maintenance Unit modification to one of my Aufklarungspanzer kits. I will be removing the top, turrent and gun of course and adding a tow package to the back of the 38t. I am scratch-building the crane with Evergreen Styrene rod and sheet materials, various scrap parts and PE kits.

The difficult part is finding any good resource photos to properly do the build accurately. I am currently using this pic as the build reference. Though there are 2 other images I have found on Google results (using 'Panzer 38t Crane' keyword), they all have different crane packages. So, I have some questions for any of the German Armor spec pros out there in hopes of finding some answers that I cannot seem to find with traditional internet search methods. This is the image reference:



Here are my main questions:

1.Does anyone know what the model/type of the crane in the image is?
2. Does this crane rotate, or is it fixed position toward the rear of the tank?
3. Since the front half of the tank is missing from the photo, I am curious if the engine is mounted in the rear (like a traditional turrented t38), or is it mounted in the center (like the rear-gun mounted vehicles) to make way for a rotational crane turrent?
4. What other interior elements would be prevalent on the Panzer 38t Maintenance Unit tanks? Is there the large internal wench disc (like in the field hetzers)?
5. Is the main cabin plate/hatch covered, or completely open (like a 38t ammunition's carrier)?

Again since the image only shows the rear half, and I cannot find any other reference photos, I am hoping someone on here has some more info or additional reference pics from books, etc. I would like to make this build as accurate to the tank in that photo as possible, but without additional reference images, or info, I may have to just wing some of it which I prefer not to do. Any help or info is greatly appreciated.
edmund
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Posted: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 07:22 AM UTC
Try forum.axishistory.com you'll find what your looking for .
lanrosta
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Posted: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 09:03 AM UTC
Thanks for the link Edward. It is valuable and I will certainly refer to it for other builds. I will see what I can find there regarding the Panzer 38t Field Maintenance unit. I did see the same image in one thread on that site, but haven't found any other images of that specific tank and/or crane yet.
ericadeane
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Posted: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 09:13 AM UTC
http://forum.valka.cz/topic/view/58017

This should help. BTW: the correct spelling is "TURRET" and not "TURRENT".
lanrosta
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Posted: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 10:09 AM UTC
Forgive my dyslexia. lol. Those indeed were the other photos I mentioned in the original post. One of those is the same photo I referenced, the rest of those photos don't have the same crane or the front half of the tank exposed.

At a further glance that last image does show the front of a 38, and it has the 'windshield' type frame with a cover. That does help a bit. Thank you. Another pic does have the same crane, but its much harder to see the details than the original image.
edmund
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Posted: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 12:03 PM UTC
If you know what the crane is you could do a more specific search , even search for pictures ? That crane was probably installed in other vehicles asides from the 38t .
panzerbob01
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Posted: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 08:27 PM UTC
From that pic and a few other pictures of 38(t) with cranes, I would suggest that it was a simple fixed-mount, steel-frame 1.5 or 3.0 ton "Bilstein" crane of the sort seen on that IBG "Einheitsdiesel with Bilstein recovery crane" kit. The crane may have been a total shop-creation and no sort of stock item at all...

I would expect that it was bolted onto the back deck panel over the typical 38(t) vent - there because one would not want to occlude those two hinged roof-panels over the engine. One or two angle-iron braces would perhaps have been bolted or maybe welded onto the center-panel between the hinged roof panels. The crane would not have any sort of turret or turn-table - just a fixed installation much like most older tow-trucks. NO pic I have seen appears to show the crane turned to either side in any way.

There are a few different individual 38(t) "crane tanks" seen in pics - at least one still has its turret mounted, while at least one or more others appear to have been built onto turretless supply or "instands" or perhaps ex-befehlspanzer 38(t) hulls - at least one appears with a blanked-off MG port and a windshield attached a-top the hull in front of the old turret-ring. I fully expect that each of these things was a unique "one-off" repair-shop creation.

Because these were most likely "custom one-offs" and the cranes and their mounting vary among the few pics available (most appear as frame types, but perhaps one or more had one of those "solid-wall" cranes - a type of similar size and also available within German repair units), I would suppose that one could scratch-build a frame crane along the pattern of that IBG model item or maybe using a similar-sized "solid-wall" design. There may be a resin kit out for one or both general types that could be adopted.

Just some thoughts and suggestions!

Bob
lanrosta
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Posted: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 11:25 PM UTC
Thank you for the information Bob. That all sounds pretty accurate, and I am starting to get the same feeling regarding the 'custom-built' aspect of these as they all seem a bit different, with no clear standard for the crane and tank combo. And also very little data or images available as to specs. i do think it falls under the 'Instandsetzungspanzer' title, but there are many of those covering a wide range of tank models and crane types.

I too think it is a fixed mount crane on a rear-engine mount 39. The engine bay doors are still accessible and there are step grills mounted with metal tabs onto the engine bay doors. These raise with the doors I assume, and are separate from the crane itself. The counter-balance area appears to be loaded with 5 gerry cans. I assume these would carry oil, fuel, or water and could be adjusted based on the required counter-weight require (though I do not see how 25 liquid gallons would provide any amount of significant counter-weight). Maybe it is primarily stowage?

I will do some more searching on the Bilstein crane, but I don't think this is a Bilstein, if it is, it does not appear to be a common version. I've found ton's of crane picks and this model only shows up in 2 pics, one of which is the original reference image I provided. The other is this one that Roy Chow pointed out that is very hard to see any details on:



I think I am going to go with a front-end that looks like the 'windshield' version, no MG mounted with a canvas type cover:



I've already started to scratch-build the crane. I will be using a Panzer IV grill PE set to make the step grills that attach to the engine bay doors. Will use spare PE kits to handle the front windshield and likely a painted foil or cheesecloth to emulate the canvas cabin cover (I may just leave the interior exposed though as I have the interior and engine kit from Verlinden and a very good PE set from Lion Roar for the Aufklarungspanzer kit that I can use.

I am still actively seeking more reference images and help with identifying the crane and components for accuracy. If anyone else has more info, please do chime in. I feel pretty confident that this will be a unique and fun build. I will share the progress as it comes to fruition if anyone is interested. ;-)
lanrosta
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Posted: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 04:54 AM UTC
And here is a better quality image (though it is slightly smaller size, it is actually more detailed than the original one I posted)...

goldnova72
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Posted: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 06:25 AM UTC
The crane in the last picture posted looks a lot like the small pedestal cranes you'ld see along side railroad loading docks with a tip bucket for coal or just a hook for general freight . Maybe check out some steam era German model railroad web sites .
panzerbob01
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Posted: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 06:26 AM UTC
Good luck and have fun with it, Ian!

I've been planning on doing one of these myself - probably going with a 38(t) with its turret still on (having seen at least one pic of a turreted 38(t) with rear crane being used to lift a hull piece or something from a Pz III...).

The side step-plates or foot plates plan sounds reasonable - frames with mesh or perforated sheet flooring attached to those hinged roofs. And yes, they would perhaps have been welded on and sized so as to allow the hatch to swing pretty far up around the gas-can rack attached to the engine compartment center roof behind (actually, in front of!) the crane and between those braces. Many 38(t) were fitted with a somewhat standard metal box or tray that would hold 4 or 5 jerrycans in that position. Lots of pics around showing that bit.

If you go the "Instands" route with the windshield... you will need to cobble some sort of appropriate "service and repair-oriented" interior, I think. Maybe as simple as deleting the various stock ammo-box bins and maybe adding a tool chest or a seat behind the driver and radio positions - and maybe also deleting the radio sets... If this is to be a recovery and repair-support crane vehicle, maybe there would have been some bins or boxes for fittings, tools, maybe some spool cable, etc.

I'll be watching to see how this goes! Please post some as you go along.

Cheers!

Bob
lanrosta
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Posted: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 08:07 PM UTC
Thanks for the tip Jim. I will see what I can find with those search terms. Maybe hit up some Model Railroad forums for that info.

@ Bob: Yes, the interior is a bit tricky due to lack of any good pics of the Panzer 38 Field and Maintenance unit interiors. I may have to hack this together using reference pictures from other field unit tank types. I do plan on using a PE mechanics tool set with a couple variations on toolboxes. I may use one of the jack boxes from the Aufklarungspanzer PE kits I have. I like the way these look with all the holes in the side. I have seen these on other 38(t) variants so I think it will be in place with this vehicle too.

If I do add a covering, it will slope down towards the back of the tank like that front pic with the windshield. It doesn't look like there is any glass for the windshield, just a frame to hold up the tarp cover. Somethings I am wondering about: Should there be a radio operator area behind the drivers seat? If so, where should I place the antenna? I think the whole passenger side will contain just garage and tool items like you mentioned.

I may add a fuel drum trailer to this project as well, just not sure yet. If I do it will be one of the last parts of the build.

Yes, I will get some pictures taken once I am close to final construction (PE parts attached and ready for surface priming), then will carry out several more images of the priming, painting, weathering and finishing processes.

Thanks to all for the great suggestions. This is my first post on Armorama. I am pleased to see some activity and support here. ;-)
vettejack
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Posted: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 09:09 PM UTC
I have this little 1/35 PE jewel of a crane in my stash from Minor Models.



http://www.minor-web.com/NewProducts.html

You might want to consider this PE conversion for something completely different...whether mounted on German or Russian vehicles. I would also keep in mind that when there were cranes and engines replacements going on, there was usually a field workshop (mounted on Opel Blitz/Maultier and/or Zis/GAZ AA/AAA, along with other manufacturers trucks) not far behind. Plenty of resin conversion kits for those too!

Its been some time since I visited their site...so, you'll have to chance it and see if they still have this crane in stock...

lanrosta
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Posted: Thursday, June 25, 2015 - 06:43 AM UTC
Mmmmm. That is a very nice PE set and crane! Thanks for sharing John. It is pretty close to the other cranes I have seen mounted to turretless 38's Maintenance Units (see pic below) and it certainly would make things easier. I will check it out more.



Is that a pic of your own model? Would be great to see it painted up and weathered. Though it would be sad too because the PE kit details looks so nice unpainted too.

I am currently using Evergreen Sheet and Rod Styrene to build the crane. Adding to this some PE parts from various kits.

I have considered designing the crane in the reference image as a PE set and maybe doing short runs on it, since I cannot find this particular crane available as a kit yet.

Ok, I know, this is OT, but your pic really got me thinking about pulling it all out again and making the crane myself in PE.

A couple years back I decided to build my own photo etch tank. I got most of the chemical powders, air pump, fish tank heater, brass, film, laminator and gear-box motor (for rotating the plate in the tank while etching) on ebay, all the plastic tubs and trays came from a local dollar store. It was about $400 for everything (the laminator itself was about $120 of that, and a used HP color laser printer on craigslist was like $50 to make the film positives). It works pretty well, you just have to monitor the process as the etchant loses it's potency after a couple etches, so you have to keep adding Ferric Chloride powder over time to keep it potent and that affects the etch time almost every etch session. Though, I have only made about 6 small brass plate etches with it so far, and a lot of work building the etch tank, getting all the trays, film, lights, glass, gloves, etc to do the work, but it does allow me to make custom PE parts when necessary. This might be one of those cases.

I started off with an interior PE kit for a 1/72 airfix JU-52 (still have to finish that model though). Also did some custom fences, gates, detailed stained glass windows, etc. and these also came out pretty good. But the whole process is pretty intense. There is also the leg work of designing the front and back plates in a vector app, printing and checking the film positives, cleaning and laminating the brass plates with the photofilm, exposing it, then etching and cleaning.

Yeah, it's a load of work (and can be messy if not organized with plastic tubs and sheets) which is probably why not many folks choose to go that route. Not to mention the Ferric Chloride will destroy just about anything it touches with a hard yellow stain. Also, you have to find a place locally to properly dispose of the used etchants. But, with some creativity mixed in, you can make amazing things that have never been made or seen before in PE. That reason alone should justify the cost and work involved for those seriously interested in building unique works of art.

If anyone is interested in how I did it, I have a Word document (with pics) that documents the whole shebang (required materials, costs, and a step by step of the whole process from start to finish). Let me know and I can PM you the doc. I was going to put it up online somewhere eventually. There were a few other forums/blogs posts out there at the time (early 2014) that I gleaned info from (plus some experimentation and ingenuity on my own part) to get it all going.
lanrosta
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Thursday, June 25, 2015 - 07:06 AM UTC
Yeah John, that is a great PE parts site. Thanks for the share. That fencing in the Award winning Tamiya Jeep looks alot like what I was doing with my etch tank. Those always look great in any scene with architecture.



If you know of any other great and unique PE brands (besides aber and eduard as i've seen most of those), I am always interested to check them out.
vettejack
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Posted: Thursday, June 25, 2015 - 05:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Mmmmm. That is a very nice PE set and crane! Thanks for sharing John. It is pretty close to the other cranes I have seen mounted to turretless 38's Maintenance Units (see pic below) and it certainly would make things easier. I will check it out more.



Is that a pic of your own model? Would be great to see it painted up and weathered. Though it would be sad too because the PE kit details looks so nice unpainted too.

I am currently using Evergreen Sheet and Rod Styrene to build the crane. Adding to this some PE parts from various kits.

I have considered designing the crane in the reference image as a PE set and maybe doing short runs on it, since I cannot find this particular crane available as a kit yet.

Ok, I know, this is OT, but your pic really got me thinking about pulling it all out again and making the crane myself in PE.

A couple years back I decided to build my own photo etch tank. I got most of the chemical powders, air pump, fish tank heater, brass, film, laminator and gear-box motor (for rotating the plate in the tank while etching) on ebay, all the plastic tubs and trays came from a local dollar store. It was about $400 for everything (the laminator itself was about $120 of that, and a used HP color laser printer on craigslist was like $50 to make the film positives). It works pretty well, you just have to monitor the process as the etchant loses it's potency after a couple etches, so you have to keep adding Ferric Chloride powder over time to keep it potent and that affects the etch time almost every etch session. Though, I have only made about 6 small brass plate etches with it so far, and a lot of work building the etch tank, getting all the trays, film, lights, glass, gloves, etc to do the work, but it does allow me to make custom PE parts when necessary. This might be one of those cases.

I started off with an interior PE kit for a 1/72 airfix JU-52 (still have to finish that model though). Also did some custom fences, gates, detailed stained glass windows, etc. and these also came out pretty good. But the whole process is pretty intense. There is also the leg work of designing the front and back plates in a vector app, printing and checking the film positives, cleaning and laminating the brass plates with the photofilm, exposing it, then etching and cleaning.

Yeah, it's a load of work (and can be messy if not organized with plastic tubs and sheets) which is probably why not many folks choose to go that route. Not to mention the Ferric Chloride will destroy just about anything it touches with a hard yellow stain. Also, you have to find a place locally to properly dispose of the used etchants. But, with some creativity mixed in, you can make amazing things that have never been made or seen before in PE. That reason alone should justify the cost and work involved for those seriously interested in building unique works of art.

If anyone is interested in how I did it, I have a Word document (with pics) that documents the whole shebang (required materials, costs, and a step by step of the whole process from start to finish). Let me know and I can PM you the doc. I was going to put it up online somewhere eventually. There were a few other forums/blogs posts out there at the time (early 2014) that I gleaned info from (plus some experimentation and ingenuity on my own part) to get it all going.



Hate to disappoint, but the model pictured came from the makers' photo bundle. I saved it because its great reference. I have no idea when I will use the one featured...too many models on the bench now as it is...and never enough time.
lanrosta
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Posted: Thursday, June 25, 2015 - 11:53 PM UTC
Ya, Same here. But, it's good to have about 3 models going at one time in different phases (construction, preshading/painting, weathering/finishing) this way you're always moving with things and not waiting on paint to dry, curing etc. and it also helps with being proactive, and breaking any monotony or slumps with the same model. But alas, most of us still work a full-time job (myself included) and it seems there is never enough time to enjoy modelling.

Maybe consider making a Panzer 38 Field and Maintenance unit like that image I posted above using your PE crane. It looks like it would be a perfect match for that pic, and we would be doing these pretty close to the same timeframe. Maybe we could showcase them together on AMS when they are finished. Plus we could help motivate each other during the builds. ;-)
vettejack
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Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 07:44 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Ya, Same here. But, it's good to have about 3 models going at one time in different phases (construction, preshading/painting, weathering/finishing) this way you're always moving with things and not waiting on paint to dry, curing etc. and it also helps with being proactive, and breaking any monotony or slumps with the same model. But alas, most of us still work a full-time job (myself included) and it seems there is never enough time to enjoy modelling.


Maybe consider making a Panzer 38 Field and Maintenance unit like that image I posted above using your PE crane. It looks like it would be a perfect match for that pic, and we would be doing these pretty close to the same timeframe. Maybe we could showcase them together on AMS when they are finished. Plus we could help motivate each other during the builds. ;-)



Would love to accommodate, but I've 4 kits on the bench now and barely room for them and all the supporting hardware/parts/aftermarket to build them with. I've got to complete at least two to maybe three of the vehicles (three of the four are M-47's Pattons') before anything else gets started. Time is the other shortage I experience as well (NASA job, Corvette/Harley activities, Veteran issues/events, et al).


But hey, at least I'm in the game after going through another Advanced Modelers Syndrome (AMS), or burnout to others, of almost a year. I need to get to tons of standard plastic kits (over 300), let alone all the specialty resin/PE kits and conversions that cost $100-$300! Even that cute little PE crane has all kinds of ideas of what platforms to place it dancing around my tiny brain...
 _GOTOTOP