To Quote Hunnicutt's Bradley on page 286
"The production M2 and M3 fighting vehicles were almost identical in outward appearance. The only obvious difference was the blanked off firing ports on the M3"

Also from Hunnicutt this time Page 292

"On the new CFV, the three periscopes in the hull roof behind the cargo hatch were eliminated and replaced by four periscopes installed in the cargo hatch cover."

Also Page 403 shows a picture of the 11ACR M3A0 with the blanked off firing ports.

Whatever you end up doing, I highly recommend two sets by Legend Productions: LF 1182 and LF 1189.

I do not believe that your statements about the M3s are correct. The M3s had blanked off firing ports in the sides of the hull as well as in the ramp. The rear facing vision blocks were mounted in the hull behind the TOW reload hatch, per Hunnicutt's Bradley book. You can see one above and to the left of the CVC and a second vision block (the OD strip left of the first one at the very top of the picture)

The M3A1 omitted the hull firing ports and moved the vision blocks to the hatch. If anything that picture from the 24ID Victory parade is an early M3A1 that retained the bustle from the M3, as the TOW hatch periscopes and the omitted hull firing ports are quite evident.

Great subject, if I do say so ...

John

I think I have it sorted. Found this from an old thread. Bottom line, no need to change the hatch.

1. Between the M2 and M3: 4 side firing ports on M3 are blanked over, but side firing port bulges are still visible on the vehicle. Firing port persicopes are not present on the M3. 2 rear ramp firing ports are plated over, but are still visible.

2. Between the M2A1 and M3A1: Side firing port bulges are completely removed from the M3A1 and the areas receive a flat plate of armor. Rear ramp ports are not present on the M3A1 (doors are now plain). TOW reload hatch redesigned on the M3A1 to incorporate periscopes into the hatch. Top rear hull periscopes deleted from the M3A1 since they are now part of the reload hatch.

So would I need to move the view ports on the hull back hatch?

Here are some pics, I am sure you guys have seen it but just to help explain it better what should be removed for the M3A0

I thought the whole hatch thing had been sorted out in this thread:

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/236076#1991021

I found a reference in an old Concord book that may explain Gino's picture. USAREUR by Michael Jerchel, references an 'M3E1' as an interim type between the M3A0 and the M3A1:

"The M3E1 is solely in use with 2d Armored Cavalry Regiment and is a unique version in retaining the old turret on a chassis brought up to A1 standards...This unit carried out the field trials finally leading to the M3A1."

From the photos it matches: Old style turret basket but redesigned TOW hatch cover and firing ports deleted.

Check your paint refs, XF-62 is Olive Drab from memory and XF-61 should be Dark Green.

Those oldies bring back good memories

Olivier

Now that we sort of have figured it out (M3E1, that was new), you can build an M3A0 straight from the box. The only change would be cutting off the periscopes above the bulged firing ports. The TOW reload hatch and the rear deck periscopes can be left as is.

Alright! To bad there are not a lot of after market parts here for the orginal M1's and M2/3's....hint hint someone should make such parts!

Personally I wish could make the M1 into an M1IP but I am not that confident in my skills yet. Maybe in a few years an M1IP kit or parts will be out! (Another hint hint if companies are looking on here!)

Also yea my bad. XF-61 is dark green.

This is all great for me...Being a young 23 year old...this was before my time, and this time frame is very interesting to me. Love the late cold war stuff! So you wise elders can share as much you want

if you have a spare M1A1 rear bustle rack you can attach it to an M1 without having to extend the existing storage rods of the turret side.
A couple of M1s were refitted with the new rear bustle rack in this fashion and took part in the famous CAT 87 event, I am not sure if these were IPs though.
There some vids on Utube ... but you have to look really close.

Cheers
Christopher:-H

Lots of good info in this thread. Tamiya Field Gray XF-65 is often recommended for a fade Forest Green color. XF-81 could also be considered for an unfaded paint look.

Model Master Acrylic 4726 Dark Green is a good "Forest Green."

Also try http://military-database.de/ for some good photos.

Well I did just pick up an M1A2 from my local hobby shop, but I was not really wanting to butcher it up. Want to build a few models first since kinda new to it. Well new to doing them and doing them well lol.

Yup, those tanks were M1 IPs from D/4-8 Cav that won CAT 87. They must have been early in the production run as they still had some of the M1's turret fittings (the turret rails as well as Gunner's sight cover AKA Doghouse)

As an aside, can someone point me in the direction to where the "A0" designation that is being used here to discuss the M3 CFV came from? I have seen this used to describe the M60 tank also.

Is it official or another modeler derived designation like the Isherman vice the M51 Sherman that was in Israeli service?

John

I think it is a modelers' term to describe the base model w/o any modifications. I have never seen it used officially.

Hi Eric,

Check your in box.

Anto

Hi CK16,

Answers by question... my background, 11th ACR, 1st Sqdn, C Trp, April 1988 until the gates closed in 1993, 19D, Boselager Champs 1988, CavCup Champs 1989, Hochsauerland Intl Champs 1990 (may have been 89.) Enough REFORGERS, Bold Lancers to kill a cow. So this info pertains to my experience in ACR's and border units in, then, West Germany.

1.Were there any units painted in MERDC that were Cav units with the Abrams and Bradley's?

NO Definitely not. Initial issue of the M3 as you in the Tamiya kit was a OD green no camo pattern.

2. So if not painted in MERDC what was the green they were painted, what is a good match for this Tamiya's Dark Green? Or is there a different color that was officially used from off the production line of these?

I would use and the match is great is Tamiya NATO Green. You can adjust it with flat white or regular white for a satin finish.

3. Did Cav scouts ever paint "field craft" camouflage on their vehicles frequently can I get a source of examples please? Would these apply to both M1's and the M3 scouts?

YES! More often in winter than summer. Winter white washes were quite erradic and messy. The effect can not usually be done in 1/35th and not lpook crappy, my opinion only. In the summer sometimes mud was applied in streaks and splotches but not too often. More often than not we completely ruined our camo nets. Every M3 had a large camo net and small net. The large net was cut up the middle to about half way. The was drapped over the vehicle and rolled up on the sides for movement. When stationary (OP ??) you roll it down and cover the running gear. Running gear is hte second most ID'ed feature of a vehicle(camo or hiding). Also, you could weave fresh vegetation into the netting. The small net was drapped over the turret and hatches cut out. Some netting was often trimmed from the end of the large net to wrap the 25mm barrel and leave "danglies to obscure its identity (first most ID'ed feature of a vehile).

4. Infantry Camo & Uniforms, will the infantry set I have work for the foot scouts(painted in woodland not chocolate chip)? The uniform of the timer was typical woodland camo pattern. However, before the dawn of the CVC "onesie" scouts spent about 80% of the time in MOPP level 2 (pants, blouse, booties, mask on your side)In the eighties and early 90's the MOPP gear was OD green. The camo sets came out early to mid 90's.

5. If I am really set on MERDC and wanted a Cav unit with MERDC...Well could it have happened? Say a state side Cav unit shipped over there as part of REFORGER? If you have your heart set on MERDC go with M113 scouts and Sheridans in Germany, 1987ish would be the end of that era. It was for the 11th.

Those were the days... killing plywood without regret!

Pete

Thanks that is all really useful! I just like the Summer MERDC look is all maybe for a later date I will do a kit or two in that pattern haha. Right now I want this next build to look right. Do a bit of nodding but not go to crazy being new to detailed modeling lol.

Do you have pics of the camo net set up? Also some of the mud camo?
I was thinking about doing a winter theme like what I think reforger 87 was but no figures out of winter geared infantry from that era. If they had some resin ones I would jump on them lol. Tried my hand on some with putty beefing them up but wasn't happy with the look. Need to give the look of the coat and over whites and maybe the Bunny/Mickey Mouse boots. As for MOP gear same issue as the winter gear, no figures out there. Seems the 1980's market doesn't get alot of attention haha.

I will look around this evening for any pics from that period... I have to say I never met anyone who wore "Mickey Mouse" boots. Just too heavy and bulky to move in, make your feet sweat and then your done! You could mod a figure for MOPP suit. In fact it would probably be a great first figure mod! The suits were pretty plain jane with flat breast pockets and thigh cargo pockets... Roll out some thin(thin as you can) epoxy-sculpt and over lay the figure. Oh and during the 80's/90's its ACR or CAV. ACAV is more of a Viet Nam era reference. Good luck! and keep trying new things... Its the only way to improve don't worry about the results too much. Those will come with time...

I just wanted to add a slight correction. The 11th ACR turned in all of its M551s in 1978. All of the Troops as replaced them with M60A1 RISE Passive tanks. The 1st of the 11th used the MERDC winter verdant pattern without sand. I was in A Troop at the time. In 1980 the A1s were replaced with A3s with passive sights. We never did anything fancy with snow painting and the cammo nets stayed in the connex.

If you get an M60A1 kit and a M113A1 you can do MERDC cav late 70s to early 80s.

Tom

Dragon's U.S. 1st Infantry Division "Big Red One" figure set has 3 guys in MOPP suits; one in the older green one, and two in the newer camo ones. The figures are for ODS (Operation Desert Storm, '90-'91), but could also be used for earlier as the gear was the same. In 1/35, the camo suits could be painted green and you would be fine too.



Verlinden also did a couple sets in full MOPP gear.

Tankers


Ground troops

Oh, ok maybe I just don't know where to look for aftermarket figures and parts lol. Also never though to look for the Dragon set

Bradleys had the anti-slip coating, as least my M2A1 did in 1987. I used Krylon Terra Cotte spray to do the anti-slip on my current M2 build. just mask it off the areas with no anit-slip and spray.

Check your emails.....

Those are great man! Thanks gives me lots of ideas lol. Google images never showed these things!