Having a few Allied WWII tanks I'm considering making them German Captures, mainly a Sherman M4A4 and a Churchill Mk 7
How common would it be that the Axis would obtain an undamaged Allied tank and keep it in use 'as a tank'? I've seen the turretless Shermans being used as recovery tractors but that's not what my goal is.
When I see a completely repainted Sherman 'Beutepanzer' are they modified or repaired tanks that were taken out? Would the damage that caused them to be lost still be present?
TIA,
Jeff
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Beutepanzer Q's
JeffCsr
Joined: January 29, 2015
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Posted: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 - 07:45 PM UTC
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 - 09:18 PM UTC
Only captured Allied tanks in working order were used. And they were only used as long as they were running as the Germans didn't have a stock of replacement parts. There is a film clip, and stills, of a BeutyPanzer Firefly complete with German crosses and 2-tone camo, but that was probably more for propaganda purposes. As soon as there is a breakdown, or there is no more ammo, the vehicle would have to be abandoned. There's also the possibility of being taken out by friendly fire in the heat of battle, if a BeutyPanzer is being used in combat. However, British 6th Tank Brigade captured a Panther G in Overloon, Holland, and renamed it "Cuckoo", and used it's superior optics and gun with good effect. Russians had pics of entire brigades composed of captured Panthers, but there were certainly for propaganda purposes, and possibly the tanks weren't even runners. If you want to do an historical example of a particular BeutyPanzer, you will have to research - or do the Firefly noted above. 
Alystyr
Joined: June 17, 2014
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Posted: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 - 09:46 PM UTC
The subject has always interested me as well.
One question I've had is:
When a Beute is repainted, just how extensive IS the repaint?
Is it just what can be painted without major disassembly (field level), or is it given a 100% redo (depot level)?
Am I correct in believing that if a tank had various German-specific equipment added (lights, cupola, etc.) that it would likely be a full, factory repaint?
One question I've had is:
When a Beute is repainted, just how extensive IS the repaint?
Is it just what can be painted without major disassembly (field level), or is it given a 100% redo (depot level)?
Am I correct in believing that if a tank had various German-specific equipment added (lights, cupola, etc.) that it would likely be a full, factory repaint?
Giovanni1508
Joined: April 17, 2014
KitMaker: 652 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 - 09:59 PM UTC
Hi Jeff,
This is a very interesting matter. German used a very huge number of captured Allied and Russian tanks, from the first beginning of the war until the end.
As Biggles said, the main condition is the efficiency, because they didn't intended to repair them.
In many cases, Germans dispatched the captured tank to Germany in order to change the weapons and other modifications, including painting.
Give a look to this, for your info, just to start, but there are many to study:
http://beutepanzer.ru/
Cheers
This is a very interesting matter. German used a very huge number of captured Allied and Russian tanks, from the first beginning of the war until the end.
As Biggles said, the main condition is the efficiency, because they didn't intended to repair them.
In many cases, Germans dispatched the captured tank to Germany in order to change the weapons and other modifications, including painting.
Give a look to this, for your info, just to start, but there are many to study:
http://beutepanzer.ru/
Cheers
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 - 10:13 PM UTC
Quoted Text
When a Beute is repainted, just how extensive IS the repaint?
On the western front, it appears the use of captured vehicels was less extensive, probably because the Allies, except for the Arddennes battle, were generally on the advance and in possession of the battlefield plus any left-behinds. Captured vehicles after D-Day in the west would likely be individual vehicles pressed into service by individual units leading to unit-level repaints, if even that. In the East considerably more vehicles were captured and used and you might see more expensive repaints. Still at the unit level as camouflage painting was a unit responsibility, I seem to recall.
Quoted Text
Am I correct in believing that if a tank had various German-specific equipment added (lights, cupola, etc.) that it would likely be a full, factory repaint?
Not factory level repaint, but probably a depot level, but you'd be looking more at Eastern captures not the Western Front. I don't know that I've seen Shermans or Cromwells with any additional German equipment added. Would be unusual if true.
Now the stuff captured from the French and used during 1944-45 is a different story and enough of this stuff was captured and pressed into service to count pretty much as native German equipment, like the Czech stuff.
Paul
ericadeane
Joined: October 28, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 - 10:17 PM UTC
One has to remember that the annexation of Czechoslovakia brought in huge numbers of Pz 38(t)s and Pz 35 (t)s which would helped make the 1939 Blitzkrieg campaigns successful. A good number of Polish and ex BEF AFVs were re-used. TONS of ex-French machines were incorporated into the Wehrmacht. Soviet, later British, ex-Italian and US vehicles were used as the previous posters have stated. Some were whole-scale efforts to convert/utilize machines (ex-Czech or ex-French). Many were simply local efforts by local units.
As for an M4A4 -- pics of a repainted ex-Canadian Sherman V 75mm gun tank exist. It was one of three photographed after their recapture. It was one Sherman V and two Sherman VC Fireflies. All three had extensive hull-mounted extra tracks as armor. All were repainted completely in dark yellow and had large Balkenkreuzen painted on them. None show any visible signs of damage/penetrations.
I've never seen any Churchill Mk VII captured and in use by the Germans -- they had a good number of earlier marks captured from the Dieppe raid. But none remained operation very long. No captured Churchills were encountered post Normandy D-Day except maybe a few abandoned ones in the research centers.
As for an M4A4 -- pics of a repainted ex-Canadian Sherman V 75mm gun tank exist. It was one of three photographed after their recapture. It was one Sherman V and two Sherman VC Fireflies. All three had extensive hull-mounted extra tracks as armor. All were repainted completely in dark yellow and had large Balkenkreuzen painted on them. None show any visible signs of damage/penetrations.
I've never seen any Churchill Mk VII captured and in use by the Germans -- they had a good number of earlier marks captured from the Dieppe raid. But none remained operation very long. No captured Churchills were encountered post Normandy D-Day except maybe a few abandoned ones in the research centers.
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 02:39 AM UTC
Quoted Text
As for an M4A4 -- pics of a repainted ex-Canadian Sherman V 75mm gun tank exist. It was one of three photographed after their recapture. It was one Sherman V and two Sherman VC Fireflies. All three had extensive hull-mounted extra tracks as armor. All were repainted completely in dark yellow and had large Balkenkreuzen painted on them. None show any visible signs of damage/penetrations.
Full size
H.P.
Alystyr
Joined: June 17, 2014
KitMaker: 146 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 03:34 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextWhen a Beute is repainted, just how extensive IS the repaint?
On the western front, it appears the use of captured vehicels was less extensive, probably because the Allies, except for the Arddennes battle, were generally on the advance and in possession of the battlefield plus any left-behinds. Captured vehicles after D-Day in the west would likely be individual vehicles pressed into service by individual units leading to unit-level repaints, if even that. In the East considerably more vehicles were captured and used and you might see more expensive repaints. Still at the unit level as camouflage painting was a unit responsibility, I seem to recall.Quoted TextAm I correct in believing that if a tank had various German-specific equipment added (lights, cupola, etc.) that it would likely be a full, factory repaint?
Not factory level repaint, but probably a depot level, but you'd be looking more at Eastern captures not the Western Front. I don't know that I've seen Shermans or Cromwells with any additional German equipment added. Would be unusual if true.
Now the stuff captured from the French and used during 1944-45 is a different story and enough of this stuff was captured and pressed into service to count pretty much as native German equipment, like the Czech stuff.
Paul
So - let's see if I understand:
A German-modified KV-1 (like Trumpy's Beute, for example) would probably have ended up with a complete DunkelGelb basecoat, with the camo being unit-applied?
And Western-front Beutes, if painted at all, may have just gotten the spraygun treatment?
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 05:15 AM UTC
Quoted Text
So - let's see if I understand:
A German-modified KV-1 (like Trumpy's Beute, for example) would probably have ended up with a complete DunkelGelb basecoat, with the camo being unit-applied?
And Western-front Beutes, if painted at all, may have just gotten the spraygun treatment?
Most KV-1s would have been captured before the Germans switched to dunkelgelb, I'd think.
Probably the main purpose of repainting was to make sure it didn't look like it was still in the hands of the original owners. They did what was necessary to achieve that.
KL
TankManNick
Joined: February 01, 2010
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Posted: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 05:20 AM UTC
Of course, with all those paper panzers, what-ifs and almost-builts one could argue that you could build any kind of what-if beute too.
If you so desired of course.
I personally think there were plenty of real interesting vehicles to model, but that's me.
If you so desired of course.
I personally think there were plenty of real interesting vehicles to model, but that's me.
Alystyr
Joined: June 17, 2014
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Posted: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 06:28 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Most KV-1s would have been captured before the Germans switched to dunkelgelb, I'd think.
Nice to know - thanks!!
That could save me some effort correcting the Trumpy kit.
Since the kit is intended to depict a "late production KV-1 Model 1941 with early cast turret, which was captured and used by the German 204th Panzer Regiment, 22nd Panzer Division in 1942" (from 4B0green.com), but is actually a late Model 1941 instead of a Model 1942, going with the kit as-is and painting it Dunkelgrau might be a plausible alternative to making the listed corrections.
Oblivion
Joined: April 04, 2015
KitMaker: 195 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 03:49 PM UTC
The particular KV-1 went through a major refit and was equipped with a KwK 40 L/43 and a Pz III commander's cupola. The KwK 40/L43 was introduced in April 1942 and the order for dunkelgelb was issued in February 1942, which means this KV-1 was repainted in dunkelgelb once it went through the refit.
Early in the war, the Germans did capture lots of Allied AFVs and went all the way to carry out major refits, just look at the A13 Cruisers or the KV-2s and T-34s of II/zBV 66, which were also completely repainted in the tropical scheme ahead of the planned invasion of Malta (the invasion was cancelled and the whole unit was rerouted to the ETO with the tropical scheme)
If I am not mistaken, they did capture some Lend/Lease Churchills and Shermans
As far as North Africa is concerned, they simply pressed them into service as they were, even Rommel himself was using the Dorchesters with their original caunter camo - they just added large balkenkreuze and only "Max" did receive some black lines on the front panels.
HTH
Early in the war, the Germans did capture lots of Allied AFVs and went all the way to carry out major refits, just look at the A13 Cruisers or the KV-2s and T-34s of II/zBV 66, which were also completely repainted in the tropical scheme ahead of the planned invasion of Malta (the invasion was cancelled and the whole unit was rerouted to the ETO with the tropical scheme)
If I am not mistaken, they did capture some Lend/Lease Churchills and Shermans
As far as North Africa is concerned, they simply pressed them into service as they were, even Rommel himself was using the Dorchesters with their original caunter camo - they just added large balkenkreuze and only "Max" did receive some black lines on the front panels.
HTH
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 07:06 PM UTC
A case in point: by the time of the Ardennes Offensive, the Germans had too few (or none at all) Allied tanks for Skorzeny's brigade. Hence, the need for the "Ersatz M-10's", and a few poorly disguised StuG lll's.
Alystyr
Joined: June 17, 2014
KitMaker: 146 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 07:48 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The particular KV-1 went through a major refit and was equipped with a KwK 40 L/43 and a Pz III commander's cupola. The KwK 40/L43 was introduced in April 1942 and the order for dunkelgelb was issued in February 1942, which means this KV-1 was repainted in dunkelgelb once it went through the refit.
You're correct about the gun, but I could have sworn that DunkelGelb was introduced in Oct. of '42, with the 3-color pattern being Feb. of '43.
I figure that those dates would give me about a 6 month window where what I want to do would be possible.
What I am planning to do is portray a somewhat generic Beute KV-1 that had received similar modifications, not that one tank in particular. This would allow me to get by without purchasing a second kit for the Model 1942 hull, and not needing to correct the other errors and omissions.
Oblivion
Joined: April 04, 2015
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Posted: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 10:32 PM UTC
Apologies, I meant to type Feb' 1943, not 1942. Tanks would receive a basecoat of dunkelgelb at factory level, then the camo colours at unit level
JeffCsr
Joined: January 29, 2015
KitMaker: 91 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 11:25 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextAs for an M4A4 -- pics of a repainted ex-Canadian Sherman V 75mm gun tank exist. It was one of three photographed after their recapture. It was one Sherman V and two Sherman VC Fireflies. All three had extensive hull-mounted extra tracks as armor. All were repainted completely in dark yellow and had large Balkenkreuzen painted on them. None show any visible signs of damage/penetrations.
Full size
H.P.
That is right up my alley! Do you figure the track is welded on or actually bolted/attached in another fashion?
Removed by original poster on 09/18/15 - 17:06:54 (GMT).
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