People,
What is the best kit for an M60 of the mid-eigthies and are they still available? I am looking for a setting in the 80s, as late as 198.. (fill in when they phased out) for M60s on an exercise in Germany. I have the Verlinden Warmachines book for reference.
What was in the mid to late eighties the most common version of the M60?
The only thing I 've seen is this tamiya M60A3 with add-on armor.
Thanks again.
Armor/AFV
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Best M60 for the 80s?
stavka2000
Joined: February 22, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 02:45 AM UTC
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 03:20 AM UTC
The answer depends on whether you want a US Army or USMC M60. Since you talk about a mid-80s exercise in Germany, I assume you want to do an Army tank during REFORGER or "Caravan Guard". This would be an M60A3TTS (Tank Thermal Sight). These tanks were phased out of use in the USAREUR during the summer of 1989. REFORGER 1988 "Certain Challenge" in September would have been the last time they maneuvered on the economy in Germany.
The "best" would be the Esci M60A3 Patton TTS (#5040), but it is OOP. I do not know if Academy's M60A1 RISE Passive kits with ERA can be built OOB into an M60A3TTS, but I would doubt it. The gun tube is different and a few other minor external differences can be scratchbuilt. It could be done rather easily. Same deal with the Italeri M60 Blazer (which is the old Esci kit).
I will spare you the talk of "getting this hull", with "this turret" and this "aluminum barrel" and add "these tracks" to piecemeal together the best and most accurate M60A3TTS.
So the best OOB M60A3TTS kit would be the only one readily available, the Tamiya M60A3 105mm Gun Tank kit. FYI, from a recent screening of the box contents of the Tamiya USMC M60A1 w/ERA, it includes all the parts (less decals) to build the US Army M60A3TTS. It even includes the steel roadwheels, although at the time of the turn in of the M60A3TTSs, all tanks had a mixture of steel and aluminum roadwheels (indicated by the "fins" on the inner roadwheel rims).
The "best" would be the Esci M60A3 Patton TTS (#5040), but it is OOP. I do not know if Academy's M60A1 RISE Passive kits with ERA can be built OOB into an M60A3TTS, but I would doubt it. The gun tube is different and a few other minor external differences can be scratchbuilt. It could be done rather easily. Same deal with the Italeri M60 Blazer (which is the old Esci kit).
I will spare you the talk of "getting this hull", with "this turret" and this "aluminum barrel" and add "these tracks" to piecemeal together the best and most accurate M60A3TTS.
So the best OOB M60A3TTS kit would be the only one readily available, the Tamiya M60A3 105mm Gun Tank kit. FYI, from a recent screening of the box contents of the Tamiya USMC M60A1 w/ERA, it includes all the parts (less decals) to build the US Army M60A3TTS. It even includes the steel roadwheels, although at the time of the turn in of the M60A3TTSs, all tanks had a mixture of steel and aluminum roadwheels (indicated by the "fins" on the inner roadwheel rims).
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 03:57 AM UTC
I agree with Sabot - I think Tamiya's A3TTS would be your better starting point. I do feel confident that no A2's were trundling around on the field at that time 
Gunnie
Gunnie
shiryon
Joined: April 26, 2002
KitMaker: 876 posts
Armorama: 606 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 04:16 AM UTC
Hey Sabot, would youmind telling the rest of us what you think would make the best US m60(which hull, turret, main gun etc.). I've thought about making a diorama about a meeting between US and IDF 60s geting ready to move out during training or some other scenario. I have the IDF stuff pretty pat, but am alittle weak On US armour. 
Ranger74
Joined: April 04, 2002
KitMaker: 1,290 posts
Armorama: 658 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 04:33 AM UTC
If you want to go early 1980s there were still M60A1s in Europe, in the 8th ID. I know I was the battalioin S-4 when my battalion turned in the last M60A1s in Europe for M60A3s. It was AUG 83. The M60A2s, I believe were all gone by 1980, when I arrived in Germany. The M-1s were arriving in 3rd ID in 1982/83, they were transistioning at same time 8th ID was getting M60A3s. So based on what SABOT stated above you need to verify from what unit you want to "own" your M60A1/A3 and go from there.
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 08:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
People,
What is the best kit for an M60 of the mid-eigthies and are they still available? I am looking for a setting in the 80s, as late as 198.. (fill in when they phased out) for M60s on an exercise in Germany. I have the Verlinden Warmachines book for reference.
What was in the mid to late eighties the most common version of the M60?
The only thing I 've seen is this tamiya M60A3 with add-on armor.
Thanks again.
Iwan--get the Tamiya A3 kit. Marvelous example of a superb tank. The US Army (correct me if I go astray) did not employ tanks with add-on armor. I am almost certain that is an Israeli and USMC technique.
DJ
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 09:06 AM UTC
Quoted Text
We actually got TMs for installing the ERA on our M60A3TTSs and it also showed how to mount them on M48A5s as well as specific instuctions for mounting around the loader's M-60D machine gun on 8th Army M60A3TTSs. With the drawdown, enough M1A1s became available to equip the force.The US Army (correct me if I go astray) did not employ tanks with add-on armor. I am almost certain that is an Israeli and USMC technique.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 09:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Not at all. The Esci M60A3 will do the job fairly well straight OOB, but since it is OOP, you could start with the "new" Italeri M60 Blazer (same kit). Then add the Barrel Depot 105mm gun with thermal shroud. The tracks can be replaced with the AFV Club workable M60/48 octagonal tracks. Personally, I would replace some of the Italeri kits' roadwheels (not all) with some steel ones from the Tamiya USMC M60A1 w/ERA. Additionally, there are some parts not used when building the USMC version that are necessary to make the Italeri Blazer into an M60A3TTS. These are the armored LRF blister(D13) and the crosswind sensor(E2). There is an Eduard set for the M60 and the old Verlinden M60 detail set that would be helpful in polishing up some of the kit parts.Hey Sabot, would you mind telling the rest of us what you think would make the best US m60(which hull, turret, main gun etc.).
Italeri M60 Blazer (#6391): $25
Barrel Depot M68E1 105mm rifled gun w/thermal shroud (35004): $14
AFV Club M60/48 Tracks (AF3510): $12
Tamiya USMC M60A1 w/ERA (35157): $30 (for A3 specific parts and swapping of some roadwheels)
Eduard M60A1 photoetch: $18
Creating the perfect M60A3TTS: Priceless
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 09:51 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Safe to say that if he wants to do a mid to late 80s (I read this as 1985 to 1989), the M60A1s were all gone in 1983, M60A2s were gone before 1980 and most divisional and ACR units replaced the M60A3 by 1985. That left the over-sized tank company of the 40th Armor in Berlin and the 8th ID(M) as operating the M60A3TTS in Germany...I know I was the battalioin S-4 when my battalion turned in the last M60A1s in Europe for M60A3s. It was AUG 83. The M60A2s, I believe were all gone by 1980, when I arrived in Germany. The M-1s were arriving in 3rd ID in 1982/83, they were transistioning at same time 8th ID was getting M60A3s. So based on what SABOT stated above you need to verify from what unit you want to "own" your M60A1/A3 and go from there.
IIRC the tank battalions in 8th ID were: 4-34AR in Mainz, 2-68AR in Baumholder, 1-68AR in Wildflecken and 5-77AR, 3-77AR (was 5-68AR at the time of REFORGER 88) and the divisional cavalry squadron (3-7CAV) all three located at Mannheim. All of which would have been participating in REFORGER 88, with 2-68AR burning up a tank during the exercise (was quite a sight!).
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 10:20 AM UTC
..........geeez, is Sabot a gem or what?
Tread...
to you Sir!
Tread...
to you Sir!stavka2000
Joined: February 22, 2002
KitMaker: 120 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 11:14 AM UTC
Thank you guys for all your suggestions. I have to agree with Treadhead that someody here is a gem !!!
Indeed I am looking to build a late 80s US army tank, thanks to you guys I know now what type, what the best stuff is and so on.
Then I got another question, when were the M151 jeeps phased out in Europe? Could I make a dio with an M60A3TTS and a MUTT?
Iwan
Indeed I am looking to build a late 80s US army tank, thanks to you guys I know now what type, what the best stuff is and so on.
Then I got another question, when were the M151 jeeps phased out in Europe? Could I make a dio with an M60A3TTS and a MUTT?
Iwan
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 08:23 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Yes, the 8th ID still used M151A2 MUTTs (we called them "Jeeps") until January 1989. That is when we turned in 3 Jeeps per tank company (Co. Commander, 1st Sergeant, XO) for 2 HMMWVs per company, one a four door for the CO and a 2-door for the 1st Sgt. The HMMWVs were initially issued with just the four door canvas cover (no stationwagon back cover) and 2-door pickup style with troop seats (not rear canvas cover). These were added later as they became available through the supply system.Then I got another question, when were the M151 jeeps phased out in Europe? Could I make a dio with an M60A3TTS and a MUTT?
So during REFORGER 88, we still had M60A3TTSs operating with M151A2s; however, almost all (or at least all the ones I ever saw in the 8th ID) had hard tops. I did not see any soft tops and certainly no Jeeps operating without tops during this time. Every Jeep had the little 1/4 ton trailer assigned to it and all the trailers had a plywood cover built on top of it that looked like a "doghouse". One side of the "roof" was hinged to open upwards, usually on the driver's side. The spare tire had a round plywood cover over the hub. It was painted OD green and had some type of company/unit symbol on it. I remember the support platoon leader's had "Ammo Humpers & Fuel Pumpers" on it. Most of the companies had their company mascot (Dragon, Cobra, Bulldog, etc.) and the user's call sign (Cobra 6, Dragon 7, etc.).
If you need examples of what the bumper number markings looked like, let me know.
SEDimmick
Joined: March 15, 2002
KitMaker: 1,745 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 08:47 PM UTC
Baumholder....burrr that brings back some memories, some good some bad :-)
stavka2000
Joined: February 22, 2002
KitMaker: 120 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 09:21 PM UTC
Sabot,
Thanks for the info on both issues. I will take you up on your offer for the markings as soon as I'll start on it.
Cheers,
Thanks for the info on both issues. I will take you up on your offer for the markings as soon as I'll start on it.
Cheers,
Ranger74
Joined: April 04, 2002
KitMaker: 1,290 posts
Armorama: 658 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 10:29 PM UTC
Baumholder was great :-) if you were stationed there! Had the best commissary in USAREUR and a great PX. But the big bonus was three out of four gunnery seasons were spent at Baumholder, only one at Graf :-) That meant, between ranges I could go home :-) :-) , while units from other kasernes had to travel to either Baumholder or Graf four times a year. Also I had a training area right out the back gate of the motor pool and could take my unir out just about anytime I could schedule. I know BH sucked for visiting units, having to stay at the German Kaserne, when not in the field. 
But I could see my barracks from my quarters on post and was within walking distance.
For the uneducated - Baumholder in located on the left bank of the Rhine River (that is WEST of the Rhine) in the triangle formed by the Mosel and the Rhine (One hour to the Mosel wine region and 1.5 hours from the Rhine Gorge and Rhinegau wine regions :-) :-) :-) :-) ). BH sits on a ridge, as is COLD in the winter, and the saying in our battalion was" If Baumholder didn't suck so much, Belgium and France would fall in the ocean!" Despite this it was a good duty station for a tanker.
But I could see my barracks from my quarters on post and was within walking distance. For the uneducated - Baumholder in located on the left bank of the Rhine River (that is WEST of the Rhine) in the triangle formed by the Mosel and the Rhine (One hour to the Mosel wine region and 1.5 hours from the Rhine Gorge and Rhinegau wine regions :-) :-) :-) :-) ). BH sits on a ridge, as is COLD in the winter, and the saying in our battalion was" If Baumholder didn't suck so much, Belgium and France would fall in the ocean!" Despite this it was a good duty station for a tanker.
penpen
Joined: April 11, 2002
KitMaker: 1,757 posts
Armorama: 929 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 11:47 PM UTC
All this brings back memories of the 89 - 90 and 91 summertimes when I was in Germany on my school
holidays to lern the language... While waiting for the bus in the morning, I used to see that HMMWV
ride past me every day. Also, looking behind fences, I remember seeing so much hardware : M60s,
chinnooks, gunship helicopters... :-)
holidays to lern the language... While waiting for the bus in the morning, I used to see that HMMWV
ride past me every day. Also, looking behind fences, I remember seeing so much hardware : M60s,
chinnooks, gunship helicopters... :-)
ARENGCA
Joined: February 13, 2002
KitMaker: 382 posts
Armorama: 267 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 05:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Italeri M60 Blazer (#6391): $25
Barrel Depot M68E1 105mm rifled gun w/thermal shroud (35004): $14
AFV Club M60/48 Tracks (AF3510): $12
Tamiya USMC M60A1 w/ERA (35157): $30 (for A3 specific parts and swapping of some roadwheels)
Eduard M60A1 photoetch: $18
Creating the perfect M60A3TTS: Priceless
Sabot, when you are done with your A3, is there enough of the Tamiya kit left to do a decent M60A1? I recall that the steel roadwheels were showing up in our motorpool (Reserve in the early 80s, and we had them on A1s and Turtles, so that shouldn't be a problem. Is anything else missing?
ARENGCA
Joined: February 13, 2002
KitMaker: 382 posts
Armorama: 267 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 06:32 AM UTC
Is the Trumpeter M60A3 any good? The box art seems to be almost a copy of the Tamiya art. Is the kit also a copy?
BTW, I notice that Trumpeter has a "new" T55. Is this the one everyone gripes about, or is this kit a decent one?
BTW, I notice that Trumpeter has a "new" T55. Is this the one everyone gripes about, or is this kit a decent one?
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 06:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
NO!!!!! DO NOT BUY THE TRUMPETER M60A1 OR M60A3!!!!! You would be better off taping some bottle caps to a brick and placing a pencil in the side of a cupcake, then placing the cupcake on top of the brick. It is a horrible copy of the Tamiya/Academy M60A1/3. I would even say buy the old original Tamiya M60A1, it is a much better kit. I wasted $20 on this kit and will do my best to ensure no one else makes the same mistake.Is the Trumpeter M60A3 any good? The box art seems to be almost a copy of the Tamiya art. Is the kit also a copy?
Quoted Text
The newest one with the BTU-55 dozer blade is supposed to be OK.BTW, I notice that Trumpeter has a "new" T55. Is this the one everyone gripes about, or is this kit a decent one?
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 07:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Yes, there is, again though, it depends on your taste of roadwheels. I have no problems with an M60A3TTS with all steel or all aluminum roadwheels, or a mix of either. Same with an M60A1. There are 28 roadwheels on an M60 series tank. It takes a while to have all the aluminum ones replaced. As I recall, we just had to keep the steel and aluminum wheels paired (steel-to-steel or aluminum-to-aluminum). It was hard enough getting maintenance to "code out" a roadwheel that was chunked (the object of much debate and interpretation*), let alone replace roadwheels just because they were aluminum.Sabot, when you are done with your A3, is there enough of the Tamiya kit left to do a decent M60A1? I recall that the steel roadwheels were showing up in our motorpool (Reserve in the early 80s, and we had them on A1s and Turtles, so that shouldn't be a problem. Is anything else missing?
*Those of you who have rode steel know the problem of interpreting the 50% of the rubber missing, is it 50% of the width or 50% of all the rubber on the wheel?
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 08:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
..........geeez, is Sabot a gem or what?
Tread...
Tread--I get goose bumps every time I read his e mails
DJ
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 08:23 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextWe actually got TMs for installing the ERA on our M60A3TTSs and it also showed how to mount them on M48A5s as well as specific instuctions for mounting around the loader's M-60D machine gun on 8th Army M60A3TTSs. With the drawdown, enough M1A1s became available to equip the force.The US Army (correct me if I go astray) did not employ tanks with add-on armor. I am almost certain that is an Israeli and USMC technique.
While we were issued TMs covering placing the materiel on the vehicles, we never did place it on the tanks....correct?
DJ
Ranger74
Joined: April 04, 2002
KitMaker: 1,290 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 09:14 AM UTC
That is correct. The Army preferred saving the money for more M1s, the Marines being more frugal and/or orphans of the Navy and/or just cheap (until they were sued by a father of a Marine tanker during DESERT SHIELD) continued with their M60A1s with the add-on armor developed by the Army.
ARENGCA
Joined: February 13, 2002
KitMaker: 382 posts
Armorama: 267 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 05:31 AM UTC
'Nother question. I may know where I can get a Tamiya M60A3. Is this a good route to go, or will I get a better outcome with the group of items that Sabot suggested?
I have read some comments here that indicate some inaccuracies in the Tamiya M60 kits (shape, etc.), and other kits. Can anyone elaborate?
I have read some comments here that indicate some inaccuracies in the Tamiya M60 kits (shape, etc.), and other kits. Can anyone elaborate?
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 09:54 PM UTC
Quoted Text
'Nother question. I may know where I can get a Tamiya M60A3. Is this a good route to go, or will I get a better outcome with the group of items that Sabot suggested?
I have read some comments here that indicate some inaccuracies in the Tamiya M60 kits (shape, etc.), and other kits. Can anyone elaborate?
Sir--for my two cents the Tamiya M60A3 is a very accurate and nice kit to construct. The A3 interior is radically different from the other M60 series vehicles. The exterior has a wind sensor, thermal shroud on the main gun and, I as I recall, a higher back deck than the other M60's. I saw and experienced no blaring errors with the Tamiya kit.
DJ
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