Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Tiger 1 Mid Production - Sd.Kfz.181 Ausf E
alanmac
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,953 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 09:38 PM UTC
Hi Dustin

Welcome to model making, hope you enjoy it.

You've been given some good advice here along with some not so good.

As it's your first kit I would concentrate on the basics. Cutting parts from the sprue and cleaning them up well, test fitting before applying any glue to ensure correct fit. Getting parts to fit cleanly together without excessive amounts of glue everywhere, and if you do, how to clean it up.

Getting to understand and see how the instructions led you through the build etc. You've chosen one of the best companies to start your kit building pastime with, Tamiya. Nicely engineered, well thought out instructions. May not be the most highly detailed but at this stage of the game ideal.

To start with don't get too hung up on accuracy, adding photo etch and things like Atak zimmerit with CA glue. That can come later when you've mastered the basics.

Certainly don't go rushing out to buy an airbrush and compressor, bad advice, when you've only just started, it's a big expense, which at this point could be better spent on buying and making more kits to see if you really do take to the hobby. Plus it is quite a steep learning curve to master one effectively.

Remember, keep asking those questions and above all enjoy, whatever level you want to work at.

Alan

Armorsmith
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 09, 2015
KitMaker: 1,063 posts
Armorama: 1,000 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 09:41 PM UTC
Dustin-Can't speak as to which of the 2 barrels but I think it's important that you attempt to use them as you will practice and learn a valuable skill in doing so. Since you have 2 barrels you can use 1to practice on. Learning how to remove seams and keeping a barrel round are, in my opinion, essential skills for a modeler. While metal barrels are nice, I find that I rarely use them unless they are included in the kit or if the kit barrels is completely useless. Later, once you have mastered this skill you can use metal barrels if you prefer but as I said, in my opinion this is an essential skill to be learned. Once mastered, you will experience great satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment that cannot be measured. Beginning modelling is where you develop basic skills that will enable you to venture into more difficult techniques down the road. Best of luck.
Byrden
Visit this Community
Wien, Austria
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 09:51 PM UTC
To answer the various questions;

Tiger 131; the kit does contain decals for a Tiger numbered 131. However, most Tiger units had a Tiger numbered 131, so we're probably not talking about the same one.

Zimmerit; there were Mid Tigers without it, but they were at the other end of the Mid period, with quite a few differences to this kit. In fact you'd be best off buying Tamiya's Early Tiger for most of the extra parts.

Gun barrels; there are two in the kit, but they're not the same. Only one of them is valid for this Mid type Tiger. They are there because model companies often use the same sprue in multiple kits.

David
Byrden
Visit this Community
Wien, Austria
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 09:56 PM UTC
You asked about buying aftermarket decals... just as an example, this is the decal sheet from Dragon's #6700 which builds the same type of Tiger that you have.



Great variety, as you can see.

David
Thirian24
Visit this Community
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: September 30, 2015
KitMaker: 2,493 posts
Armorama: 2,344 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 11:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text

You asked about buying aftermarket decals... just as an example, this is the decal sheet from Dragon's #6700 which builds the same type of Tiger that you have.



Great variety, as you can see.

David



David,

If I purchase that decale set, I can use any on there and have a proper Tiger?
Thirian24
Visit this Community
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: September 30, 2015
KitMaker: 2,493 posts
Armorama: 2,344 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 11:27 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hey Dustin,

If you want to stick with the mid tiger, id like to suggest a subject matter that may interest you--the 506th. The unit's emblem features a tiger over a big W. And I believe it had some of the Sept zimmeritless tigers (Byrden may correct me, I am operating from memory).
Complete accuracy would require some tweaks, but from a distance and to everyone who does not obsess over such things, you'd have a nice facsimile of a 506th tiger that you can enjoy building, learn from and take pride int.



So that would basically just require to purchase a new decale set?



Well, depending on how accurate you want it, yes. If you want just a rough facsimile of a 506th, a basic mid tiger that overlooks some of the month-to-month modifications that occured, 506th would be an excellent choice:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Echelon-AXT351008-1-35-Schwere-Panzerabteilung-506-Gruppe-Fehrmann-Tiger-I-/371438104584?hash=item567b6fb008

You'd have a mid tiger that looks like a mid tiger with an historically correct unit marking.

Byrden and others can confirm if I am correct but I am 95 percent sure this unit had at least some zimmeritless mid tigers. Not all were. most were not, but there were some (I think).
Here are some other tips. Do try and at least get a budget airbrush for the basic coat. There are some bare bones ones I think for 30-40 that operate on canned air. I recommend tamiya dark yellow xf 60 for dunkelgelb, with a little white, thinned down with isopropyl alcohol. Note that tamiya and other paints intended for an airbrush do not paint well with a brush.
For the tires, a rookie mistake is to paint them black. Now in some settings, ie when wet, the rubber on tires can look black, but usually it looks toyish when painted with straight out black. If you are airbrushing, I suggest tamiya nato black. regardless, you want a dull grey black color, not pitch back. Vallejo also has a dark rubber color that is excellent if you paint with a brush.
Heres another tip: when you paint the tools, use vallejos acrylics. They are the only paint I find works well consistently with handbrushes. You only need two three maybe four colors to start:

-old wood
-oily steel.
black for the parascopes

You may also want dark rubber to touch up tires.

Or, and this is more advanced, you can paint the steel with metallic black vallejo and then run a soft lead pencil to get the most realistic finish.
I in effect ruined a second kit when I first started by not understanding the correct paints to use for painting by hand.
There is an excellent video entitled realistic armor finishing techniques that you may find useful if you want to learn about some of the intermediate finishing techniques that more advanced modellers use. A lot of it is pretty easy (and fun) if you simply learn how. It seems to go in and out of print but is available by other means, if you catch the drift. Pm me and I might be able to help you out.
I also recommend a book called Panzer's Tactics by Chris Mrosko, if you can find it (which may be nigh impossible). It was a cheap, to the point how to book but is not easy to find any more. One thing I learned from it is that you cut, sand and smooth and paint the wheels and the tracks as subassemblies. It is sheer folly to try and go by the kit instructions of installing wheels and tracks first.
Those are just some off the cuff suggestions and pointers for people just starting a first armor build--suggestions that if made to me could have helped me learn and develop much faster.



I will definitely get with you about proper color choice and which paints to buy.

I did buy some Tamiya rattle cans. I figured it would get me by until I was able to get an airbrush.
alanmac
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,953 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 11:33 PM UTC

Quoted Text

it is pretty much impossible to get a passable finish by brush. Some like to hem and haw on that but they are wrong. Painting base coats with a handbrush is not in accordance with those fundamentals.
There are I believe cheapo airbrushes for 30-40 that will get the job done with a base coat.



Maybe its pretty much impossible for you to use a brush to get a passable finish but don't judge others by your inabilities.
Not in accordance with "your" idea of fundamentals unless you have access to some holy grail of modelling that lays all this out. It's just your opinion the same as mine.

There are rattle cans that create a good Dunkelgelb include one which is a primer coat as well, and it's not just the cost of the airbrush, it's the source of air as well.



Byrden
Visit this Community
Wien, Austria
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 11:36 PM UTC
Just about every decal on that sheet is appropriate for your kit, though I don't know how you would obtain the sheet without the Dragon kit that it comes with.
There must be plenty of people who only used part of theirs.

If you want to focus in on some specific decals, ask me.

David
TonyDS
Visit this Community
Antwerpen, Belgium
Joined: December 18, 2004
KitMaker: 16 posts
Armorama: 6 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 11:36 PM UTC
Hey Dustin,

I build this kit many many years ago.
As far as i remember the two kit barrels have different size muzzle breaks.
For a mid production tank u will need the barrel with the biggest one, the small muzzle was only for very late tigers.

Regards
Tony
Thirian24
Visit this Community
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: September 30, 2015
KitMaker: 2,493 posts
Armorama: 2,344 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 11:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hey Dustin,

I build this kit many many years ago.
As far as i remember the two kit barrels have different size muzzle breaks.
For a mid production tank u will need the barrel with the biggest one, the small muzzle was only for very late tigers.

Regards
Tony



Thank you very much for that info Tony!
Thirian24
Visit this Community
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: September 30, 2015
KitMaker: 2,493 posts
Armorama: 2,344 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 11:49 PM UTC
F.W.

I bought TS2 and TS3 in rattle cans. I figured that would get me by for now with the TS3 but I'm unsure that I can get the camo to look proper with the TS2 rattle can.

Also, I bought Tamiya extra fine primer in a rattle can and Tamiya matte black in rattle can. I was going to do a lite coat of primer and then matte black before the TS2.

Thoughts?
Byrden
Visit this Community
Wien, Austria
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Monday, October 12, 2015 - 12:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text


A DAK tiger would also be available in a basecoat without mottling.



I really don't think so.

David
Thirian24
Visit this Community
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: September 30, 2015
KitMaker: 2,493 posts
Armorama: 2,344 posts
Posted: Monday, October 12, 2015 - 12:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

F.W.

I bought TS2 and TS3 in rattle cans. I figured that would get me by for now with the TS3 but I'm unsure that I can get the camo to look proper with the TS2 rattle can.

Also, I bought Tamiya extra fine primer in a rattle can and Tamiya matte black in rattle can. I was going to do a lite coat of primer and then matte black before the TS2.

Thoughts?



I have no idea what ts2 and ts3 are. Maybe someone else can help you to get proper colors in spray cans. The fine primer is excellent choice. I dont 'think youll need matte black. See another thread I posted about whether its appropriate to advise getting a starter airbrush--Bill Cross posted a great starter airbrush for 65 shipped.



TS-1 = XF-64 in a spray can
TS-2 = XF-61 in a spray can
TS-3 = XF-60 in a spray can

That's what I bought minus the TS-1

These are Tamiya

Byrden
Visit this Community
Wien, Austria
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Monday, October 12, 2015 - 12:32 AM UTC
The photos of the actual tanks show a camouflage pattern.
The restorers of the Bovington Tiger looked for the original paint and they found a pattern.
The official German orders were to apply a pattern.
So I think there was a pattern.

David
Thirian24
Visit this Community
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: September 30, 2015
KitMaker: 2,493 posts
Armorama: 2,344 posts
Posted: Monday, October 12, 2015 - 12:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

TS-3 = XF-60 in a spray can



I was unaware of this. I even googled tamiya dark yellow x60 spray can to make sure that I was up to date. I stand corrected on this matter.
You'll still have difficult applying camo (61 and 64). Not possible with a spray can. So you might want to find a different vehicle that has a basecoat only, unless you want to spring for an airbrush.



I think I'll start looking for a cheap airbrush.

So you don't think the black is necessary? I've been watching some videos on YouTube and apt of people use that technique to add shadows.
alanmac
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,953 posts
Posted: Monday, October 12, 2015 - 01:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Oh boy this is going to be fun. Goody goody.



Quoted Text

There are rattle cans that create a good Dunkelgelb include one which is a primer coat as well,



Link one. I dare you.



I really wish you would just go away but I am sure that won't be the case and I can look forward to more distasteful exchanges.



Yes, I'm sure it's goody goody for you, as you seem to get some perverted pleasure from confrontation.

No need to link to a rattle can as someone else has obliged, so looks like you lost on the "dare you".

I won't be going anywhere, but I'm sure if you continue on the path you seem to like, then maybe you will.

As for distasteful exchanges, no sorry I don't go in for that but I know you do, and your opinions and beliefs are some of the most distasteful I've ever had the misfortune to read.

Accept that people have a different opinion, a different experience from their modelling, without trying to ram your set of rules down peoples throats.

It's one of the oldest expressions going "You can't teach experience", so you have to experience these things in that way you end up with a greater understanding.

My comments to the original poster was in the context they were new to modelling, their first kit etc. They may well stick with it and progress but also they may find another pastime interests them more.