Did the IDF during 1948 and/or 1956 use any early shermans...ie: a Sherman used at El Alamein 1942
Billy
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IDF sherman question
T-55A5
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Posted: Friday, March 11, 2016 - 02:12 AM UTC
GTDeath13
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Posted: Friday, March 11, 2016 - 02:57 AM UTC
T-55A5
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Posted: Friday, March 11, 2016 - 03:18 AM UTC
It showed A3 hulls with the early turret (which I have seen before), but I need to know if the Dragon El Alamein sherman kit can be used
Billy
GTDeath13
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Posted: Friday, March 11, 2016 - 03:37 AM UTC
I have not seen a M4A1 DV Sherman in any of the photos I have found.
Most M4A1 tanks in IDF service were late variants with the 76mm gun.
This photo was taken in 1955 and perhaps the second row of tanks are M4A1 with the 75mm gun but I have not managed to find this photo in higher resolution.
Most M4A1 tanks in IDF service were late variants with the 76mm gun.
This photo was taken in 1955 and perhaps the second row of tanks are M4A1 with the 75mm gun but I have not managed to find this photo in higher resolution.
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Friday, March 11, 2016 - 03:43 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Did the IDF during 1948 and/or 1956 use any early shermans...ie: a Sherman used at El Alamein 1942
Billy
Hi Billy,
My intuitive answer would be yes, based on the fact that in the late '40's the IDF would used anything it could get, but since I'm not an IDF Sherman expert, don't take that for granted.
The following link is in Hebrew, however I'm sure you'll find some useful (and interesting) pictures (bear in mind, some of the Shermans there are actually Egyptians).
http://www.fresh.co.il/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=383387#post103119
Israel
rfbaer
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Posted: Friday, March 11, 2016 - 03:52 AM UTC
If I remember correctly, all the Shermans in use by the IDF in the 1948 War of Independence, just a handfull, were based off M4/105 tanks, with the 47* hull. The Suez war tanks were largely M4A1/76, obtained from the French, but as already noted, by then the IDF was recovering and re-furbishing scrapped tanks from all over the place, so it's hard to say "no" to anything, including unusual parts mixtures, like cast final drive covers on M4A4 hulls.
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Friday, March 11, 2016 - 03:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
If I remember correctly, all the Shermans in use by the IDF in the 1948 War of Independence, just a handfull, were based off M4/105 tanks, with the 47* hull. The Suez war tanks were largely M4A1/76, obtained from the French, but as already noted, by then the IDF was recovering and re-furbishing scrapped tanks from all over the place, so it's hard to say "no" to anything, including unusual parts mixtures, like cast final drive covers on M4A4 hulls.
Very much agreed, Sir.
jasegreene
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Posted: Friday, March 11, 2016 - 05:56 AM UTC
I do know the first Israeli Shermans was those left behind by the United Kingdom when they left the area.I believe they were the Sherman III.But the El Alamein Sherman I think might be wrong,at least with the suspension would be wrong for sure.
ericadeane
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Posted: Friday, March 11, 2016 - 08:02 PM UTC
With the formation of the IDF, they had approx. 30 cobbled together Shermans, left over from British Mandate force junkyards and other parts they were able to buy from scrap yards before the arms embargo stopped them from acquiring more.
What sorts were these? Anyone's guess but when you say "El Alamein" Shermans, you're referring to either early versions of the M4s, M4A1s or a scant few M4A2s. But the British took these west to Tunisia and then into Italy in 1943. I don't know what sorts of armored units were sent to Palestine but I suspect they would be later M4A4s or later sorts. I know of no photos of the 1948-era Shermans. Starting in the early 50s, M4A4s and M4A1 (76W) were acquired and started to fill the IDF with the beginnings of a larger tank force.
If you find a pic of the 1948-era Sherman you might luck out. By 1956, you get upgraded M50s (from the M4A4s), M4A1s and some howitzer tanks -- none of which were present in the '42 battles of El Alamein.
What sorts were these? Anyone's guess but when you say "El Alamein" Shermans, you're referring to either early versions of the M4s, M4A1s or a scant few M4A2s. But the British took these west to Tunisia and then into Italy in 1943. I don't know what sorts of armored units were sent to Palestine but I suspect they would be later M4A4s or later sorts. I know of no photos of the 1948-era Shermans. Starting in the early 50s, M4A4s and M4A1 (76W) were acquired and started to fill the IDF with the beginnings of a larger tank force.
If you find a pic of the 1948-era Sherman you might luck out. By 1956, you get upgraded M50s (from the M4A4s), M4A1s and some howitzer tanks -- none of which were present in the '42 battles of El Alamein.
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Friday, March 11, 2016 - 08:49 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I don't know what sorts of armored units were sent to Palestine but I suspect they would be later M4A4s or later sorts.
A bit off topic, but I remembered that one of Tascas's Sherman resembles a tank stationed in Palestine in '43. Dr. Google came up with the following result : http://www.amps-armor.org/ampssite/reviews/showReview.aspx?ID=955&Type=FL
ericadeane
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Posted: Friday, March 11, 2016 - 11:23 PM UTC
Right. I know many Commonwealth units passed through or were stationed in Palestine during the war. But I'm assuming any leftovers to be scraped together by the fledgling IDF in '48 would have been from units that were stationed there near war's end or immediately following. Shermans of units shipped off to fight elsewhere, stationed temporarily in Palestine or Syria in '43 --- are unlikely to have been part of the '48 thirty of so Shermans assembled by the IDF --- is my thinking.
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Friday, March 11, 2016 - 11:50 PM UTC
Quoted Text
--- is my thinking.
...and you're probably right.
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Monday, March 14, 2016 - 10:46 AM UTC
Quoted Text
What sorts were these? Anyone's guess but when you say "El Alamein" Shermans, you're referring to either early versions of the M4s, M4A1s or a scant few M4A2s. But the British took these west to Tunisia and then into Italy in 1943. I don't know what sorts of armored units were sent to Palestine but I suspect they would be later M4A4s or later sorts. I know of no photos of the 1948-era Shermans. Starting in the early 50s, M4A4s and M4A1 (76W) were acquired and started to fill the IDF with the beginnings of a larger tank force.
If you find a pic of the 1948-era Sherman you might luck out. By 1956, you get upgraded M50s (from the M4A4s), M4A1s and some howitzer tanks -- none of which were present in the '42 battles of El Alamein.
Roy, the ONLY Shermans to serve in the 8th Army in North Africa were the SHerman II and III. At Alamein these all would have been DV hulls. THere were a mix of Sherman III and V left in Palestine by the British as well as at least a couple of Cromwells
Al
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Monday, March 14, 2016 - 01:32 PM UTC
Quoted Text
as well as at least a couple of Cromwells
Correct. Those were "stolen" by two British Army soldiers from an army depot and became the core of the IDF Armored Corps.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/british-deserter-who-stole-tanks-for-haganah-dies/
http://machal.org.il/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=766&Itemid=1175&lang=en
Israel
rfbaer
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Posted: Monday, March 14, 2016 - 09:02 PM UTC
Two good reads, thanks.
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Monday, March 14, 2016 - 11:12 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Two good reads, thanks.
You're welcome.
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