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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Jadgtiger in red oxide primer paint
Brad-M
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Posted: Friday, June 24, 2016 - 08:54 PM UTC
Guys,

Did these tanks exist in combat? I have done google searches and couldn't find pics of them/it. Were they used to protect the JT factory of did they head out into the field? Were they outfitted with the side fenders and tools/cables? Any help would be appreciated.

TIA
Brad
easyco69
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Posted: Friday, June 24, 2016 - 09:43 PM UTC
I can only recall a Cyberhobby Ferdinand in red oxide copied from an actual "last Ferdinand built". So I suppose the Jagdtiger could have existed.

varanusk
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Friday, June 24, 2016 - 10:42 PM UTC
While at some point they were painted red primer at the factory, I doubt they left it as is. With facilities destroyed by allied bombings and short of materials, they were not producing so many units to rush them to the front...
slug955
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Posted: Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 12:10 AM UTC
Parts like jacks were dispensed with. I would imagine an otherwise serviceable unit would be sent out of the factory equipped with whatever they had on hand. Battle tracks or transport tracks. Tow cables, shovels etc would be nice to have but not necessary. Paint could be the last tin of whatever thinned down to go further. All the vehicle really needed was a power plant, gun, ammo and optics.
hugohuertas
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Posted: Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 12:58 AM UTC
It's unlikeley that any of the Jagdtigers had been sent to battle on red-primer, but I should never say never...

I have found no photograph references about one of these vehicles either; anyway I tend to believe that if they rushed any of them to the fight just in primer base, they might also left out any tools and the fenders.

I have one of Dragon kits -with transport tracks- in mid stage of building, and if I ever finish it I will leave it with no fenders nor tools...
spartan01
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Posted: Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 01:18 AM UTC
I am doing a king tiger will a mostly red oxide turret and painted hull to show a damaged tank being sent back out at the end of the war but it would not be all red do a light was of german yellow and green and then chip it it will look great
Chuck4
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Posted: Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 03:22 AM UTC
It certainly seem possible some units were sent to the front in just red oxide.

After dec 1944, German tanks were no longer given a base coat of dark yellow over the red oxide paint when they were delivered from factory. Instead they were sent to the front in just red oxide paint. Camo yellow and green were then applied directly over the red oxide paint at the field. So it certainly seem possible units would go into the battle in red oxide paint if there was a shortage of yellow and green paint at the unit level.

Brad-M
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Posted: Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 03:36 AM UTC
Thanks guys. I'll keep looking for possible pics.

Brad
Biggles2
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Posted: Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 04:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

It certainly seem possible some units were sent to the front in just red oxide.
After dec 1944, German tanks were no longer given a base coat of dark yellow over the red oxide paint when they were delivered from factory. Instead they were sent to the front in just red oxide paint.


Just to continue this can of worms: https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/206908&page=1
tatbaqui
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Posted: Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 05:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks guys. I'll keep looking for possible pics.

Brad



Sans documentation or period pics, the possibility still exists -- why not go for it.
JPTRR
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RAILROAD MODELING
#051
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Posted: Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 07:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

...an otherwise serviceable unit would be sent out of the factory equipped with whatever they had on hand...All the vehicle really needed was a power plant, gun, ammo and optics.



Not a JT but I recall reading about T-34s or KV-1s encountered outside of Leningrad in 1942 that were bare steel - and covered in rust. Any of you recall that? I don't remember where I read it.

So I bet there were panzers that went to the front just in primer.
exgrunt
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Posted: Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 05:51 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

...an otherwise serviceable unit would be sent out of the factory equipped with whatever they had on hand...All the vehicle really needed was a power plant, gun, ammo and optics.



Not a JT but I recall reading about T-34s or KV-1s encountered outside of Leningrad in 1942 that were bare steel - and covered in rust. Any of you recall that? I don't remember where I read it.

So I bet there were panzers that went to the front just in primer.



I think the bare metal T-34's might have been just an urban legend.
Biggles2
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Posted: Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 07:05 PM UTC

Quoted Text


I think the bare metal T-34's might have been just an urban legend.


It is said the tanks were driven off the assembly line into the front line (with or without paint).
exgrunt
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Posted: Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 07:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


I think the bare metal T-34's might have been just an urban legend.


It is said the tanks were driven off the assembly line into the front line (with or without paint).



It is also said that the Air Force flies UFO's from Area 51. Just sayin'....

ericadeane
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Posted: Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 08:06 PM UTC
Jagdtigers were battlefield rarities -- I think everyone can agree to that. Whenever encountered, they were photographed due to their enormity. 1) might additional photos emerge someday? Sure. But to date, nothing like what you've described has surfaced. 2) Nothing like you described has surfaced for any other standardly produced German AFV that made it into combat. 3) among WW2 photo collectors/enthusiasts, oddball subjects immediately get recognized -- like a possibly all red German late war AFV(or even a dark monotone one, since we're talking mostly B/W pics).

I don't think you'll find historical verification of your proposed subject. Thus, you'll have to decide if you plunge fwd knowing that your paint scheme will have your mark of artistic license. Which is all fine and proper too.
Brad-M
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Posted: Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 08:45 PM UTC
Ok, fair enough, thank you for the replies. Camo for my 1/35 and 1/48 scale projects that were in combat.

Cheers
Brad
Removed by original poster on 06/26/16 - 15:54:27 (GMT).
easyco69
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Posted: Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 09:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


I think the bare metal T-34's might have been just an urban legend.


It is said the tanks were driven off the assembly line into the front line (with or without paint).



It is also said that the Air Force flies UFO's from Area 51. Just sayin'....




Now, why would you go & mess up some decent input with sarcasim? The Germans were over running Russia & close to their cities & factories. The order was given to move the factories behind some mountains...but the front line was pretty close. So it seems possible that T-34's were driven out of the factories to battle without paint. Russians didn't mess around, especially when their country was being invaded.
The battle of Stalingrad comes to mind , with the Russian tractor factory refitted to build tanks...this is where it probably happened. Tanks coming off the assembly line with no paint , no gun sights driven by volunteer factory workers to push back the Germans who were outside the city. This happened until they could plan a counter attack....
After the war they rebuilt the Stalingrad Tractor Factory...it was named Dzerzhinsky Tractor Works , building both tractors & military equipment till it went bankrupt in 2005.
So back to the original question, I would research & try to find out when the actual factory was bombed...or the ball bearing factory. You can't build tanks without ball bearings. The answer is out there..dig deep.
exgrunt
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Posted: Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 10:49 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


I think the bare metal T-34's might have been just an urban legend.


It is said the tanks were driven off the assembly line into the front line (with or without paint).



It is also said that the Air Force flies UFO's from Area 51. Just sayin'....




Now, why would you go & mess up some decent input with sarcasim? The Germans were over running Russia & close to their cities & factories. The order was given to move the factories behind some mountains...but the front line was pretty close. So it seems possible that T-34's were driven out of the factories to battle without paint. Russians didn't mess around, especially when their country was being invaded.
The battle of Stalingrad comes to mind , with the Russian tractor factory refitted to build tanks...this is where it probably happened. Tanks coming off the assembly line with no paint , no gun sights driven by volunteer factory workers to push back the Germans who were outside the city. This happened until they could plan a counter attack....
After the war they rebuilt the Stalingrad Tractor Factory...it was named Dzerzhinsky Tractor Works , building both tractors & military equipment till it went bankrupt in 2005.
So back to the original question, I would research & try to find out when the actual factory was bombed...or the ball bearing factory. You can't build tanks without ball bearings. The answer is out there..dig deep.



Just keeping it real. Until a pic appears of an unpainted T-34 in combat, it's pure conjecture. I could state that late war German tanks were painted pastel pink but until I can provide back-up, that statement means nothing.
Brad-M
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Posted: Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 11:15 PM UTC
Fellas,

I'd appreciate it if you started a new thread concerning T-34's if you could please & thanks. This topic is of the Jagdtiger.

Cheers
Brad
Biggles2
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Posted: Sunday, June 26, 2016 - 08:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I can only recall a Cyberhobby Ferdinand in red oxide copied from an actual "last Ferdinand built". So I suppose the Jagdtiger could have existed.


Since the last Ferndinand was built in May '43, it doesn't make sense that it ever appeared in combat (Operation Zitadelle) months later in primer. It certainly wasn't hastily delivered to the front unpainted! The photo just shows a primered Ferdinand with a lot of workers' chalk writing all over it in the assembly factory, before final painting. All AFV's, at some point, appeared in primer before painting! All know photos of final production Tiger II's (octopus) and Jagdtigers, on surrender or capture, were painted in at least 2 colors, so I don't understand this concept of unpainted or primered German tanks appearing in combat.
Headhunter506
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Posted: Monday, June 27, 2016 - 12:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

It certainly seem possible some units were sent to the front in just red oxide.

After dec 1944, German tanks were no longer given a base coat of dark yellow over the red oxide paint when they were delivered from factory. Instead they were sent to the front in just red oxide paint. Camo yellow and green were then applied directly over the red oxide paint at the field. So it certainly seem possible units would go into the battle in red oxide paint if there was a shortage of yellow and green paint at the unit level.




Not factually correct at all. Starting in mid-August 1944, field applied camouflage was stopped and all camouflage painting of KT's was performed at Henschel and other factories prior to shipping to ordnance depot according to approved schemes for armored vehicles. The only real variations in patterns were from the factories producing Panthers and the BMM patterns seen on Hetzers. Patterns seen on vehicles after September were fairly uniform in their application. The hulls were delivered to the factories in RAL 8012. RAL 7028, 8017 and 6003 were applied sparingly over RAL 8012. Paraphrasing from Thomas Jentz's Germany's Tiger Tanks VK45.02 to Tiger II, "On 29 November 44, orders from OKH Wa J Rue (WuG 6) VIII were issued that, beginning 1 March 45, the external surfaces of armor components were to be delivered to the assembly plants already painted with a base coat of RAL 6003 Olivgrun. The assembly firms were then to complete the multicolored camouflage scheme by spraying on RAL 8017 Rotbraun or RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb in sharp contours. by 20 December 44, armor suppliers had been issued orders to immediately start coating armor components with RAL 6003 paint prior to delivery."

Even in late March 45, with American units just miles away, the last KT's produced at the Henschel plant in Kassel were issued with a RAL 6003 base coat and RAL 7028 stripes. KT of 3.Kp. sPz.Abt. 511:







The whole "last panzers in red oxide" thing is more of a fad among modelers because it creates a visually striking appearance rather than than anything based on documentary photo evidence. Germans were very thorough regarding how they approached manufacturing things like armor vehicles and would, to the last, follow directives, up to and including making sure that vehicles were painted. The only exception is an uncompleted Hetzer captured by Czech insurgents from the Skoda factory during the Prague Uprising.

Picture of Jagdtigers at the Nibelungenwerke in St. Valentin:



You can see that the vehicles have camouflage patterns. Pictures of camouflaged dead cats:









There were only 77-85 Jagdtigers produced from July 44 to May 45. Most of those were destroyed by their crews after breaking down. The last four pictures are more than likely of Jagdtigers produced in the latter months of the war. There were only four produced in May 45 and those were issued to s.SS.Pz.Abt. 501.
slug955
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Posted: Monday, June 27, 2016 - 01:38 AM UTC
Some would argue that the last four Jagd Tigers were armed with the 88 but did not leave the factory as they were without their optics, making them useless.
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Monday, June 27, 2016 - 01:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Guys,

Did these tanks exist in combat? I have done google searches and couldn't find pics of them/it. Were they used to protect the JT factory of did they head out into the field? Were they outfitted with the side fenders and tools/cables? Any help would be appreciated.

TIA
Brad


The last four Jagdtigers to be issued, on May 4, 1945, were photographed after they surrendered to the Americans and Russians (the little battle group had been ordered to stop the Allied armies from linking up--an unlikely task for four vehicles, and in any event, it had already happened). They were camouflaged, and one of these four is now preserved at the Kubinka museum in Russia. The day after they were issued, the Nibelungenwerke factory was blown up, and the factory director shot himself.
Headhunter506
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Posted: Monday, June 27, 2016 - 02:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Some would argue that the last four Jagd Tigers were armed with the 88 but did not leave the factory as they were without their optics, making them useless.



According to this:



those were supposedly manufactured in April 45 and were not issued to any unit. More here on the subject.
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