Hi all, I want to build a Tiger that Wittmann used during Normandy. Does anyone know which Tiger this would be? I am assuming a late? But unsure of what the turret number would be?
Thanks

Did you Google Whittmann Tiger and check out some of the articles. He commanded several different Tigers in Normandy, the last was 007! Sorry, not much help with numbers, my Tiger books are on loan to my nephews.

There were several versions of his Tigers released, and those might be worth looking for. The Tiger guru's might help there.

Wittmann's tank when he arrived in Normandy was # 205 (red numbers with white outline), a late Tiger l (flat road wheels).
At Villers Bocage, owing to 205 braking down, he reportedly took over #222. When he commanded # 007 he was interim company commander. Number 007 was another late model Tiger l command tank.

Those Dragon Wittman Tigers are prohibitively expensive!

Thank you very much for this helpful information. I was aware that he last commanded #007 (and this was found knocked out...?) but was unsure of the the other tigers he used throughout Normandy.

The specific wittmann kits released are super expensive, so was hoping to use one of the spare late tigers I have in the stash.

Any late Tiger l, with zimmerit, will do. Just source the right decal numbers.

Perfect! Thank you. Exactly what I was hoping to do with my Dragon #6383, just needed to confirm the turret numbers.

Hmm I was looking through another forum and apparently it is impossible for Wittmann to have used #222 during Villers Bocage as there is a photograph after the VB battle showing the #222 in pristine condition towing another tiger (argued 231).

They argue it was most likely #212 wittmann used during VB.

Not trying to discredit your input Biggles2, as I appreciate your input, but for the sake of discussion, is there perhaps anyone else, maybe Tiger experts, who may be able to shed more light on to which tank Wittmann used during Villers Bocage?

There was an article in the AMPS journal last year which argued rather persuasively that 007 knocked out near Cintheaux actually had rubber-tyred roadwheels rather than steel resilient ones.

The question of what he used at V-B has been debated for years. Look for posts by Yann Joualt on Missing Links as he has been researching it a lot and I've rather lost track recently.

I did say "reportedly", as I find my source conjectural. Any other source will be equally conjectural as I don't believe there's enough definitive evidence (photos or records) to ever prove which tank he actually commanded. I think some of the confusion arises from the fact that Kurt Sowa's tank was 222, but his tank also broke down and he commandeered 231, through seniority, and when Wittmann's Tiger was disabled he, in turn, commandeered Sowa's tank (now 231) but retained Sowa, his friend and previous gunner in S04 (Eastern Front), saying, "Just like old times, eh Sowa?" although this may be anecdotal.

This is probably the only known photo of 007 after destruction: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/wittig.jpg
Maybe David Byrden can determine from this rear view if 007 had steel rimmed wheels, or rubber.

After reading some of the old discussions I think you could get a PhD (pile higher and deeper) trying to figure out the road wheel type.

It is definitely a PhD worthy topic! You're right biggles2, a lot of the evidence we have now concerning which tank he was believed to have commanded was founded through the process of elimination, and probability, as opposed to cold hard evidence, photographic or otherwise. So it is all very conjectural.

Who knows if we will ever be able to answer the question with absolute certainty?

You could probably get a PhD trying to decide which number Wittmann used at VB! 231, 222 and 212 have all been mooted as possibles. Taylor in VB Through the Lens, suggests 222, but according to Jimmy this isn't correct. Several pictures purport to show Wittmanns Tiger knocked out in VB, unfortunately in each case the Zimmerit has burnt off and taken the numbers with it! DML kit 6253 is designed to produce the VB Tiger (it needs Zimmerit adding) and shows 212 on the box. Incidentally, 007 is a Befehlspanzer, it was von Westerhagen's vehicle. Wittmann, being an experienced tankman did not like using a command tank. He preferred a standard "trooper" as he did not like to forgo the ammo storage caused by the extra radio gear.

And yet, he is firmly associated with them in our minds....



David

I don't know how anyone can argue that Wittmann didn't use 007! He was interim commander at that time, and who else could have used the command tank? It is fairly well documented that Wittmann was using Tiger 007.

Sorry, slight misunderstanding. I was not denying he used 007 at any stage. I was just saying he chose not to use a command tank given the choice. 205 is not a command tank, yet he was a company commander.
Incidentally the other day I was talking to someone who served in the Northamptonshire Yeomanry and knew Joe (?) Ekins, the gunner who "got" Wittmann.

Hmmmm...debating whether it was the Northamptonshire's or the Sherbrooke Fusiliers who killed Wittmann will open up a can of worms (or start a colonial war! ) But since the shot that took him out came from a slight elevation (it entered at an angle through the engine deck) I think it would be fair to say that the tank responsible was on higher ground shooting downwards. So which regiment was on the slightly higher ground?

Weren't Befehlspanzer limited to the Abteilung Stab rather than being found at Kompanie level?

That's correct. A company commander would normally have an ordinary Tiger.

David

[warning : the following post contains a shameful plug !]

Our latest research ( https://www.flickr.com/photos/mlq/24303906442/in/dateposted-friend/ ) has enabled us to find new accounts, photos and documents that shed new light on this action.

As far as Wittmann's Tiger is concerned, our conclusions are as follows :

- two Tigers of 2./SS101 entered Villers-Bocage in the early morning of 13 June, 1944, not just one as is usually reported.

- The first of these two 2.Kp Tigers was definitely Wittmann's Tiger. The second Tiger was probably Tiger 211. The former was andandoned in the High Street, while the latter was eventually hit and stopped by a 6-Pounder AT-gun on its way back out of town.

- Wittmann's mount at VB : as was established in 2000 on the ML Axis forum by a group of researchers (myself included), the 2.Kp Tiger abandoned in the VB High street is Tiger 212.
There have been great debates as to whether this 2.Kp Tiger that was stopped and abandoned in the High Street was indeed the Tiger Wittmann used for his foray into the town, and I happen to have been one of the strong exponents of this scenario for the last 16 years, i.e. this Tiger (212) was Wittmann's Tiger.
The latest research carried out by myself, my good friend Frédéric Deprun and other friends and fellow researchers has not made us change our view. On the contrary, we feel there is more evidence pointing in this direction than there ever was before.

- Alternatively, it has been argued that Wittmann used Tiger 222 or Tiger 231. But these 2 candidates can easily be discarded :

* Tiger 222 was Kurt Sowa's official mount, and as Wittmann is known to have 'borrowed' Sowa's Tiger for his attack on 13 June, it had been concluded that Wittmann used 222.
But as we had pointed out, 222 is seen towing another Tiger (231) on the next day and is in immaculate condition meaning that it could NOT have been the Tiger used by Wittmann possibly since the latter received several hits from several British tanks during his attack.
Consenquently, this also means that Sowa was not using his official mount (222) on 13 June, but must have been in another Tiger (which, again, must have been 212 based on our research).

* Tiger 231 had been suggested as possible candidate too on the basis that a few photos taken on 14 June show this Tiger being towed (by 222) seemingly out of VB, on the N175 road.
But further studies and 'new' German accounts (Lötzsch, Lau) have now allowed us to establish that this Tiger 231 NEVER went into town and had remained in the Ancienne Route de Caen, near Les Hauts-Vents farm since the evening of 12 June till the morning of 14 June when it was finally towed away. 231 was then commanded by Oscha. Lötzch and had track damage.
NB : the German Kriegsberichter (Arthur Grimm) photos actually show Tiger 222 towing Tiger 231 out of the track leading to Les Hauts-Vents farm and then eastbound on the N175 road.
Consenquently, Tiger 231 could NOT possibly have been Wittmann's mount on 13 June,1944.

Despite all this, this issue may still (and will) be debated for years to come, so it really is a case of how you look at the evidence that is being presented.


FYI, we are currently working on an English version of our book on this battle which, hopefully, should be published next year.


Tiger 007 :
As noted above, there is little doubt that this Tiger was Wittmann's mount on 8 August 1944.
Wittmann was appointed (interim) Kommandeur of SS101 on 10 July, 1944 and remained in this position until his death on 8 August. As such, he left his 2.Kp and he logically inherited 007 as his official mount, meaning he died in HIS own Tiger.

As for the idea that Wittmann disliked Command tanks because they carried less ammo than standard tanks, it gets perpetrated as if it was something special to him which is somewhat amusing since I doubt there were many tank commanders who enjoyed the idea of having less ammo at their disposal !

I'm aware of the theory that suggest Tiger 007 had rubber-rimmed (dished) roadwheels as the author had contacted me a few years before his article was published.
This author has done a very interesting and compelling study on the Tiger I production, particularly how the production schedule and details were upset as the result of the bombing of Henschel and Sohn facilities at Kassel on 22/23 October, 1943, resulting in several Tiger tanks being produced with rare combinations of 'Mid' / 'Late' features at the end of 1943.

Now if I recall correctly, his study of Tiger 007 was centered around the idea that this Tiger was one of the 10 Tigers delivered to SS101 in January 1944, but as I pointed out, this is contradicted by the photographic record which shows that out of a full complement of 45 Tigers, the battalion received 19 (18+1) 'Mids' (rubber-rimmed wheels) and 26 'Lates' (steelwheels) ; we know 18 Mids first went to the 3 Kp. , then 4 of these were sent to the 1.Kp which also received another Mid (the Tiger sold to Japan) in late April /early May 1944, and none of these 19 Tigers were command Tigers. This leaves 26 Lates (delivery occured in late April 1944) of which 9 were sent to the 1.Kp and 14 to the 2.Kp. The last 3 Lates were therefore sent to the Stab Kp (007, 008 and 009).

So as 007 must be one of the 26 Late Tigers that went to SS101 in late April 1944, it is highly doubtful that it was one of the 'crossover Tigers' produced in the last few weeks of 1943 and in the first week of 1944 and that it was fitted with rubber-rimmed wheels...

NB : the unique photo of 007 shows it had a port for the cold starter on the back plate. I also knew the farmer's son – Michel Samson – who kept many relics of the battle and had the opportunity to visit an examine his amazing collection in great detail, including numerous Tiger parts. One of them was a segment of a turret ring guard that was found precisely where 007 had been KO'd.
Both the above features greatly strenghened the view that 007 was definitely a standard 'Late' Tiger most likely fitted with steel wheels.

HTH
YJ

As Arte Johnson said on Laugh In "Verrrry interesting" reading.What ever became of the wrecked 007? And were the numbers on the turret sides straight or on a slant and white and yellow or just white? Cyberhobby's kit has me asking this.

Thank you.

Yann,those are some fantastic shots,love the before and after pics,just great,thanks for that link.

The photograph of "007" clearly shows that it had the smaller idler wheels, first introduced in February 1944. It was on that basis that we designed the Cyber Hobby kit.



David