OK,knowing NOTHING about US Cold War armor,what,if any,personal protection did tank crews carry on their person (clothing,M17 gas masks,NBC hoods etc) in case of an NBC attack.
Looking at a potential Cold War exercise diorama but wanting to know more from those who were there/involved/have a better library than me/better with Google.....

Thanks in advance,
Steve

Verlinden did once a MOPP 4 tank crew. Maybe worth googling?

Some MOPP 4 suit images for you.
https://www.google.de/search?q=mopp+4+suit&biw=1440&bih=761&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwis7Nfso4rPAhUFbhQKHVIuBx0QsAQIGw
BTW MOPP read Mission Orientated Protective Posture.

H.-H.

Hey H.-H,
Thanks for that,I'd forgotten about the Verlinden figs,and the links and Google proved useful (still going through it) Good for infantry but still puzzled about the tankers.Looking at something between 1970 and 1990 though this could change depending on what's available.....

Thanks again,
Steve

Late Cold War ('70s - '90s) tank crews used the M25 Protective Mask (below). The hose could hook into the vehicle's NBC system if equipped, or to an external canister worn around the waist. The mask also had an integrated microphone in it for the intercom/radio system. I don't know of any figures that have an M25 on them.

Hey Gino,
That's kind of what I thought,thanks for the correct designation,maybe the good folks at Live-Resin may have one in the pipeline............?

So my next question would be would there be any situation in which tankers would be issued the M17 mask for personal use outside their vehicles? I seem to recall a DML US Tank crew set (possibly early 90s) that had the M17 leg bag equipped,so would that be the case 'in country'?

Thanks,
Steve

It is possible that tankers could have M17 masks. I believe the Dragon US Tank Crew figures (ODS-era) have the larger carrier for the M25 though.



M25 with carrier and canister.

I remember taking a screw-driver to the filters in our tanker's masks and punching a hole in them so we could smoke with our masks on!

Gino-
Got it!! That's the figure set I was thinking of,and if I was more in tune with my google-fu then putting in M25 mask I would've found the bag! (And some useful 'wiring' type diagrams) who knows,maybe we will see some M25 masked crewmen in the future.... Thanks for steering me in the right direction.

Richard-
Really? Wilful destruction of government property? For a crafty smoke? Just hope you didn't get caught out with an unexpected kit audit!!

Really helpful everyone,cheers!
Steve

Verlinden Specifically did a set of Tankers in NBC kit with Masks and Hoods wearing CVC's:
http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/3/t/80810.aspx

Most pictures of the late 70's eraly 80's Reforgers show crew wearing the OD NBC suits and carrying their masks in the pouches. I know in the Australain Army we would generally wear the Noddy Suit and have the mask close at hand in the buckets when training for Medium/High Level conflict involving NBC
Al

The Verlinden Infantry and Tank Crew CBR dress sets are great. I have several sets safely tucked away in my figure stash.

I am surprised with the flurry of M60 series kits we haven't seen a bunch figure companies putting more effort into Cold War figures. A follow-up to the Valkryie 1970's era tank crew would be a no brainer.

Fire extinguisher nozzles with screens pulled from PRC-77 battery box pressure relief valves jammed into the threaded connector (as filter screens) were a popular field expedient for smoking other than tobacco products. I spent a lot of time replacing them after every field exercise.

The thing is that in case of real attack you weren't going to hang out outside the tank. Just opening the hatches meant de-conning the inside of it. So if at MOPP level 4 you stayed inside.

Though there was this one time on Table 8, they never called "all clear" after the NBC engagement so the crew drove off the range for de-brief still masked.

I can see a bunch of guys from a chemical outfit de-contaminating a vehicle.

Hoses and MOPP gear spraying something down.

Hello Steve,

Something that might be worth considering is that was common for the driver and, often times, the TC to remain unmasked in the interest of safety, especially during movement that required interacting with personnel on the ground and lighter vehicular traffic...REFORGER comes to mind.

Although I can not think of the nomenclature for the device right now, many vehicles also had a bracket attached to a fender that would allow for the mounting of an NBC detector.

Yes, there were the odd individuals who served that would jack up their kit every now and again. Frequently, they were the same ones who liked using a HEAT round as a bar stool. Nice guys, though.

Allen

Steve,
In short, it's possible, but not likely for TANK crews to be using the M17. I was an Armor Officer from 1975-1980, and a Chemical officer from 1980-2006 (there's a story there, related to this topic, but that's for another time). After 1980, I had a hand in development of individual soldier protective systems, and in vehicle, aircraft and shipboard decontamination systems. Here's a long answer to some of your questions (forgive me):
1) Firstly, Verlinden makes a very nice set of 3 (driver, loader, commander) 1/35 Tank crew in standard M25 Armored Vehicle Crewmen masks and very early MOPP (Mission Oriented Protective Posture) overgarments circa 1979-84. The face blanks on the masks are open so that you can add successive coats of clear epoxy to reveal the nicely sculpted faces of the crew-- but the figures are torso, head and arms or shoulder head and arms only-- no legs.
2) The standard armored and aircrew protective mask was the M24, M25 or M25A1 series mask from the late 60s through 1988-89. They had a canister filter which was carried in the protective mask carrier worn around the waist, and linked by a corrugated hose. It had a completely clear face blank, (revealing the face from the nose up through the mask) and a rubberized fabric hood. It could also be connected to the vehicle based filtration system, which was a much larger filter box contained in the vehicle. The standard ground troop M17 and M17A1 protective mask could not be used by armored vehicle crews because it did not have an intercom microphone connection and was difficult to wear with a CVC system--rather, the M17 had a voicemitter--a device which "magnified" the voice slightly. The filter system of the M17 and individual eyepieces style also interfered with vehicle sighting systems, and it could not be connected to the larger crew filtration system. The M24/M25 series had a semi-flexible face blank that could be "pushed" into most sight systems (with some difficulty I might add). Allocation of M17 and M24/M25 series masks was done by standard MTO&E (Table of Organization & Equipment) based on types of major equipment, like tanks, SP guns, etc. So unless there was a really big screw up-- a tank unit should have been equipped with M25 series masks (but there are exceptions to the rule-- the staff of a tank unit would likely have M17s, because they are not manning a tank.
3) The standard US MOPP suit did not exist before 1979-80, what we wore before then was an "impregnated uniform"-- usually the cotton fabric "Fatigue" uniform and wool gloves that were "impregnated" with a waxy coating designed to repel liquid agents. The boots were coated in a "vesicant" grease to seal openings, and the standard metal-buckle wet-weather overshoe was worn over that. Each unit was provided with an appropriate number of "Impreg Kits" containing large cans of vesicant and powdered wax, and the unit was supposed to prepare their uniforms by dipping them into boiling water and adding the wax powder. All this was supplemented by standard issue rain suits and ponchos. Many units stockpiled commercially prepared "impreg" uniforms dating back to WWII. In my unit (2/11 ACR) in 1977, our Impreg Kits had been been made by Yardley Cosmetic Company, NY, NY in 1943 and 1944! by the way-- these chemical uniforms were miserable to wear.
4) By 1978, The Joint Chiefs of Staff rated US NBC (now CBRN-E) capability as woefully inadequate, and this caused things to change-- we got the first modern Chemical suits in late 1979 in Europe, purchased from the UK-- the dark green NATO Standard British Army protective suit, boots, and rubber gloves (the boot being a flap of rubber and a rubber upper with four eyelets on the corners of the flaps which tied around the ankle). The pullover top affair had a hood, large pocket on the chest, and the trousers had a pocket on the front of each leg. In late 1981, units began to receive a US developed OD green suit that we now call the MOPP suit, although it differs from today's MOPP uniform in many details.
There's a long, painful and politically disturbing history of US CBRNE equipment in the early "cold war" period--involving a famous Armor Officer (later Army Chief of Staff), Creighton Abrams, and Richard Nixon, among others. I'm just glad we didn't have to face any WARSAW Pact forces using chemical weapons at the time-- later, after about 1987, we arguably became the best NBC/CBRN defensively equipped army in the world IMHO(but I'm a little prejudiced). That said, up until a few years ago, we still used the German FOX NBC vehicle,British developed CAM, etc., etc.-- so it was really a NATO collective effort.
VR, Russ

There is nothing more irritating to listen to than a smoker having a nic fit 4 hours into a 24 hour MOPP exercise. My secondary was NBC so I'd have to check masks, suits, soldiers and all the NBC gear before, during and after and you should see what smokers and chewers did. One guy soaked his chaw in water, put it in a canteen and tried to drink it through the water system. Did you ever have to clean vomit out of a M-17 mask? He wound up aspirating nicotine poisoned water and vomit and I saved his mask for him to clean up when he got out of the hospital.

Allen,
You're thinking of the fender bracket for the M8 Chemical Agent Alarm system. It could be mounted on any vehicle that had a fender (basically) and was sometimes powered by the vehicle power supply (depending on the vehicle and mounting options). The M8 Alarm system really wasn't fielded army wide until the 1980s. There was another device that was also fender mounted but more often internally mounted, this was the M11 decontamination apparatus. It used a C02 cartridge at the top of the device to pressurize a 1 & 1/3 qt. cylinder filled with DS2 (decontaminating solution 2) which was caustic. In training, we routinely filled them with water and had some great "squirt gun fun" when the 1SG wasn't looking...if it wasn't rusted up on the inside.
VR, Russ

Gino, et. al.
The M25 carrier was not really that much larger than the M17 carrier, but it was different shape, being a true "bag" with an open end and a small hole on the opposite end that the inlet tube of the filter canister protruded through. The filter canister sat on the bottom of the bag, and the stowed mask was semi-wrapped around the canister, making the carrier a little longer and more tapered at the top than the M17 carrier. On the other hand, the M17 was stowed in the carrier with the face blank facing out (forward) and so it had a slightly different more "squarer" appearance from the front, and a "rounded" appearance at the top rear in looking at it from the side. It also had a small carrying pocket for the M285 personal decontamination kit which protruded out the back, altering it's appearance somewhat. There were also three noticeable flexible vinyl panel inserts sewn into the outside fabric cover of the M17 carrier for added protection to the eyepieces. The DML figures are indeed wearing the M25 carriers-- but there are no masks in the set which is a shame-- the Verlinden set has the crew with the masks on-- but they are only "waist up" and "shoulder up" figures (potential for grafting heads maybe?) I wish somebody would come up with a set in MOPP wearing the proper gear. Of course the M40 and MCU2P mask is a lot different than the M25/M17 series, so an entirely new set is required for more modern troops, post 1989-2016
VR, Russ

I was a M60A1/A3 crewmember/tank commander from 1980 to 1986. As stated above, tank crews were issued M25 masks and NEVER had I ever seen an assigned tank crew member with a M17 gas mask.

Within an Armor company, the only individuals that were issued M17 masks was the 1SG, Supply SGT, Supply Clerk, NBC-NCO, Mechanics and the Commo guys... As for the mechanics assigned to the M88 heavy recovery vehicle, I'm not sure if they were issued M25 masks.

The twist here is that sometimes the above non-tankers WOULD be utilized as loaders when a tank crew was too short for tank gunnery qualifications and during some "sensitive" alerts where tank crews had to be basically "combat ready" as we moved out to our assembly areas... For whatever, which only happened twice while I was stationed in Germany from 1980 to 1983.

If war did break out between the U.S. and the Soviets, ALL "spare" individuals within the Battalion, like the mail clerk, retention/reenlistment NCO and some of the cooks would without question, be "reassigned" as tankers, with their M17 masks.

Other than that, ALL tank crews were issued M25 masks up into the 90s. On a side note, you would NEVER see a M16A1/A2 rifles on a M60A1/A2/A3 tanks since tankers were issued M1911A1 pistols and each tank had two M3A1 SMGs, one for the loader and the other for the driver... I'm pretty sure if war did break out, tank crews would grab any available M16s rifles since our .45 cal. pistols and SMGs were definitely on their last legs.

Wow......you go to sleep and a whole load of useful info pops up-that is what makes this site so great

Joseph,Stephen and Allen-thanks for sharing your experiences
Patrick-maybe too much information about your particular job role? But hey,somebody's gotta do it....
Russ-that was an avalanche of info!!! Great reading and lots to investigate
Ted-again,thanks for your info,at the moment I'm leaning towards an 80s scenario so particularly relevant!

Everyone,I really am grateful for your contributions to filling in the many gaps in my limited knowledge in this area-Jason,who knows,if these Cold War armor releases are a bit then we may see more figures in the future
And as regards to references I have my eyes on the Tankograd trio of Operation Reforger books,can anyone give a swift thumbs up/thumbs down on these? Or any recommendations on books covering US uniforms between 1965-1999? (The European theatre in particular)

Again,kudos to all,
Steve

Talking about decontaminating apparatus, I've yet to see a 1/35 scale M13 :



H.P.

AFV Club has one included in their M109 A6 kit.

Thanks for the tip H-H.

H.P.

AFV Club has one in both their M109A2 and M109A6 kits.

Just a caution about The M13 DAP and when you'd see it in widespread use--it was developed in 1985-86, but the Army's first order for 66,000 units was not placed until 1986 and It took a long time to get into the system. It did not see widespread fielding until the 1990s--and some units would not have this device until long after the First Gulf War period. We were still fielding it to many units in 2003 before OIF. It was designed to use several decontaminants, primarily something called DF100 and DF200, also referred to as aqueous foam, but could use Supertropical Bleach (STB) in slurry mix, soapy water, and any number of new decon solutions that came around to replace DS2 which was finally declared obsolete in 2004. Although there were some M11s still around, they too were listed as obsolete by 2004, so between 1990 and 2003, you might see either or both systems in some units.
VR Russ