With the recent release of the M-60 by AFV, I would like to built this as an tank of the 3rd Squadron in MERDC camo during the late seventies at Germany (Bad Hersfeld) I read somewhere, that the 1st and 2nd transitioned to the M-60A1 RISE PASSIVE during the late senventies but couldn't find anything about the 3rd. Can only remember the Sheridans in MASSTER. So the big ?. Does someone has informations or can confirm that the 3rd also reveives A-1 and if they have been in MERDC?. Many thanks for any hints.

The Tank Company of the 3/11 would have had the Rise Passive M60A1 in the late seventies. I was in 2/11 ACR 1977-80, and H company had them, ours were all in MERDC. Each squadron had a "float tank" kept at the Direct Support maintenance unit, and 3/11 ACRs had been stripped of parts and was a "hanger queen" for a long time until they were told to put it back together-- that was a famous incident. The entire regiment transitioned from M551s to M60A3s in the late spring and summer of 1980, all the tanks were in MERDC at that transition I think.
VR Russ

Russ,
many thanks for your information. As said, I could only remember watching nearly daily the Sheridans, M-113 and M-114
thundering along the borderline. Can you remember,if all tanks of your unit had the TLAC's fitted or if some still had the SLAC's.
Brgds

Harald,
A difficult question to answer, depending on the specific vehicle, but for the most part I'd say the majority were SLACs, but a few TLACs could be found depending on the age of the vehicle. While I was in the 11th ACR, tanks were replaced as they came up for rebuild based on age. Until the mass replacement of the Regiment's tanks in 1980 by the M60A3s, they were replaced one at a time or a couple at a time, and when I arrived at 2/11 in early 1977, we still had a few older TLACs hanging around, so I suspect the other Squadrons might have had a few too-- one I specifically remember was the blade tank in H company. I think there was another one in my platoon too. I have an old photo of my platoon at Wildflecken in the summer of 1977, and at least one of the tanks had the old style searchlight and TLACs, but I can't remember which tank it was. I don't think you'd be wrong if you went with the SLAC version. I believe the AFV club kit comes with both types. I know one of the kits comes with a small air filter flow indicator, (a small clear cylinder on the side of the filter that showed red if the filter needed cleaning) but our tanks in 2/11 didn't have them until the M60A3 came along. I was the transition officer for our squadron to the M60A3 in May and June of 1980, but I left the Squadron right at the end of transition in Grafenwhor.
VR, Russ

Hello Russ
thanks for your insight informations which solved the issue. as my interest shifted to the cold war area, I focused on the 11th Cav and their duty at the border (so much memories of the youth)
Thank you for your service!
All the best

Harald,
One other thing that might be of interest, many of the 11th Cavalry's M60A1s were unique in appearance as we adopted "47 boxes" which were actually the rear turret storage boxes from M47 tanks. These were attached to the rear bustle rack using bolts and square metal plates in four positions attached to the bustle rack, directly in the center of the rack. I know 2/11 had a lot of these, and am pretty sure 1/11 and 3/11 also had them. The Regiment did annual tank gunnery every summer at Grafenwhor or Hohenfels, and quarterly gunnery training at Wildflecken, where the M47 was used as a prominent target. Most of these M47s were from France or Italy, and would come in on long trainloads in the summer months to the gunnery locations, and would sit on the tracks for a while before they were unloaded. Sometimes we'd strip the "47 boxes" off the M47s as they sat right on the railcar. The same photo I mentioned in my last post shows three M60A1s with these boxes. Good luck with your project-- post some photos if you can.
VR, Russ

Russ,
now this sounds very interesting. Will search my stash for an Italeri M-47 - Must be somewhere. Hull was finished. Turett exept the smoke dischargers and boxes. Thats the interesting thing in our hobby. Once you start something and you begin to look and search for refs, you discover a lot more stories behind the theme. By the way-will be at the former McPheeter Barracks at Hersfeld next week and to have a look how it's looking now. Last time, mostly changed to an industrial estate. Also try to find the remains of the OP's in this area (if anything is left)
Brgds

Harald,
Yes, I've always believed that it's the small details that count that make things distinctive. I have the AFV club M60A1 sitting on my shelf right now, and I'm planning on building it as my tank, H-36 in summer 1977. I've been looking at 47 boxes from the Italeri kit, but can't locate any M47 kits around here now. I spent a total of six years in Germany, three in the 11th ACR, then I returned in 1995 to command a Battalion in Hanau. In 1996, I was invited to Fulda to join in the city's commemoration of 50 years of the 11th and 14th Cavalry's association with the city. Of course the 11th was long gone, and I was the only American still in uniform at that time in the area that had served in the 11th, plus my unit was the closest US unit to Fulda at the time. It brought back a lot of memories for me, and we were treated very well. Germany holds a lot of memories-- my first date with my wife was a tour of an M60A1 on the handstand in Bad Kissingen-- she was an American teacher in Germany, and told me she had never seen the inside of a tank before-- what a line! We've been married 39 years now. My daughter was born in Wurzburg, and I had the priveledge of attending our old landlord's 70th birthday outside of Bad Kissingen in 1996 too--you guys give a heck of a party for turning 70! Sadly, not much remains of the old 2/11 Kaserne, it was given over for refugees, then turned into a industrial site for Deutche Telekom, then I learned a few years ago it was mostly torn down-- I still remember the grated non-skid floors and onion-domed clock tower on those buildings.

One other thing I just thought of-- bumper numbers-- I can't remember when we went through the transition, I think it was late 1977 or 78 when we changed bumper numbers on the vehicles. The old system used the vehicle number (like H-36) painted on the left side, black on a tan background, and on the right was 2/11 CAV in black on a tan background. Somebody higher up in V Corps took offense to this, so the numbers were changed to V-2/11 ACR (in your case 3/11) We also wore tankers jackets and tankers boots with berets, but by 1980, those were being phased out because the Corps didn't approve of them either. Also Each tank in the tank company would have had a name painted on the gun tube ahead of the bore evacuator to align with the company designation--- for example, H company's would have names like "Hawg" "Hotstuff" "Hellcat" "Harlot" (those are some I remember anyway), etc. For 3/11, the names would have begun with the letter "L" since that was the letter designation for the tank company. After 1980, when the whole regiment transitioned to A3s, the names would have appeared by troop similarly.
VR, Russ

Russ,
trying to figure out to upload photos from my last vist at OP Alpha which is now a museum. Very interesting. All the offices, interiors and buildings are still in there original condiion. Worth a visit. And directly opposite, the border fences and NVA Towers.
Brgds

I was in Atrp 1/11 and went through the transition from M551s to M60A1 RISE Passives. No tanks in 1st Squadron had M47 stowage boxes.
I'm a member of a 11th ACR Germany Facebook group I can ask about the 3rd Squadron and M60A1s. But I find it highly doubtful that all the Squadrons did not have their M551s replaced. The Regiment would have had a terrible imbalance of forces with the much less capable Sheridans in one Squadron. I got my M60A1in the summer of 78.


My M60A1 A-11 on REFOGER 78. The day before it started.

Tom

Thanks for the memories of tanker jackets, tanker boots and black berets. General Starry definitely started something with that attire. Interesting that it basically disappeared with him. He left V Corps in 1977. I wonder if the remarking of the vehicles with "V -" was not some sort of reminder to the 11ACR that they belonged to V Corps and not Donn Starry.

That was an interesting time. I remember that the argument behind transitioning to M60s was the need to beef-up the "covering force mission" of the 11th and 2nd ACRs.

Hello Tom,
Thanks for offering your help and sharing the photo. Any information regarding this theme is highly appreciated and as I said its also a trip back. We had a lot of fun with you guys out there in the small villages.
Brgds

Hello Russ,
Oh yes - US Army Bumper Codes. For most of us over here an neverending story. Indeed I noticed that changes have been made. So end of the 70's was it correct, that an Squadron was based on 3 recon troops, 1 tank Btl and 1 Howitzer Btl?. In case of the 3rd, I read that they had also an Eng Btl attached.
Brgds

Harald,
You are correct, there were three recon troops, a Tank Company, and a How battery in each Squadron. There was an attached Engineer unit at Regiment, but it stayed there with no attachments at Squadron level I believe. I doubt a Battalion would have been attached at Squadron level. There was also an Ordnance unit at Regiment with DS platoons at each Squadron-- they kept the "float" tank. Until late 78 or early 79 (for my squadron), each troop had 6 Sheridans and 3 M113s and an M106 in each platoon, the Tank company had 5 M60A1s in a Platoon, for a total of 17 in the Tank Company (two in the HQ section, one for the CDR and the XO had the blade tank). Later, the CAV troops would replace thier M551s with 4 M60A1s per platoon, then those were replaced by A3s in 1980.

Tom,
You transitioned to M60A1s in A troop in 1978 and replaced the Sheridans? We had Sheridans in 2nd Squadron well into fall 1978 and winter 1979. I was a range officer at Graf and watched a HET roll in with a new Sheridan to replace an over mileage one. We placed it on the line only to watch it catch fire and burn into a puddle of aluminum (except for the gun and engine block) before we fired the first round down range. That was the swan song for our Sheridans-- we replaced them With 4 A1s in each troop sometime either in late 78 and early 79 I don't remember the dates, only to turn around and replace those with A3s in summer of 1980. Perhaps 1st Squadron was ahead of the game-- they were co-located with Regiment so they got all the good stuff first! 3rd Squadron was always last as I recall. As for the 47 boxes, they were peculiar to the Tank Companies in the Regiment as they had the A1s longer, and those guys scavenged from Wildflecken and Graf in 1976 and 77 as the M47s came in for targets, well before the rest of the Squadrons transitioned to the M60A1. I was in H company before moving to Fox Troop in the Fall of 1977.

Yes-- General Starry was the godfather of the CAV, he left and lots of things changed. I can't recall the exact date of the bumper number change, but in Tom's photo you can clearly see the V-1/11 ACR on the right of the tank so it must have been in 78 sometime when the change occurred. And yes, we sensed it was V corps HQs attempt to restore "control" of the "CAV". I know there was lots of consternation in our squadron about that-- and the berets were the next target, but I still have mine, with the CAV patch and "Allons" crest, and my tank gunnery patches (the tankers jacket fell apart long ago). I kept the beret because it was a Bundeswher beret, somehow 2nd Squadron got a bunch from the German Army. When we went back to the beret Army-wide in 2001, I broke it back out-- it was still nicely shaped. It hangs proudly with my border certificate. I left the CAV and transferred to the Chemical Corps in 1980 (actually PCS 'd from Graf during A3 transition). I was grabbed as the Chem Corps was restarting, but those years in the 11th set me up for a career, not many Chem officers had the experience that I had in the CAV, and it served me well in later years. Sad thing about tank officers is they seldom leave you in a tank for long, I met the former E troop commander when I was assigned to Hawaii in 1991, he had been promoted to a LTC, but was the TRADOC LNO to WESTCOM, and hadn't had an tank assignment with tanks for years and was disgusted because of it. As the Army transitioned to Strykers, it only got worse. I did have the opportunity to be a development officer on the M1 and M1A1 as a Chemical officer for CARC paint and decon systems though, so I got a little bit of exposure to that tank. My Chemical company also got to support the 11th at Fort Irwin, after they moved from Germany, so I still got to be around Sheridans for a while. What a hunk of junk.
VR Russ

Hello Russ,
Thank you for your very useful in depth information. Especially for pointing out the equipment. Now we got the A1, the 109A2, the A3 and the M-113 (hopefully a complete series) in front of the door from AFV. The 11th Cav is takeing shape - The rest of the year will be very busy.
By the way, I was with the Bundeswehr from 1978 to 1980. First at the ABC Abw Btl 310 (I think your CBRN troops are the same) based at Zweibrücken, close to your Air Base. We were equipped with the M-113. Later on transfered to an light engineer Btl back at Cologne my hometown. We got the berets I think at around '79. For the Engineers they were red-a litle bit lighter than the ones from the paratroopers. Many many times when we were in the field other units thought, we were airborne.( We let them believe)
After that, went into the aircraft business where I am still working at Cologne Airport. (But I still prefer tracked vehicles)
All the best

Hi Harald, Russ, Thomas and Gary,

your discussion brings back good memories!

From 1971 till 1978 I was with Panzerbattalion 354 in Hammelburg, till I left for officer's training to Hannover.
Panzerbatallion 354 had a close connection with H Trp 2/11 CAV in B K due to the fact that Panzerbattailon 354 was equipped with M48A2 and M48A2C until the transition to M48A2GA2 started in late 1977/1978.

The driving power of H Trp to increase some sort of partnership with Panzerbattalion 354 had been SFC T.J. Sperry, a close friend of mine as long he was with 2/11. I met him the last time in Januar 1979, being on leave for christmas in B K, before he rotated back to CONUS. Sadly I lost trace of him, but I got the information from you, Russ, that he sadly passed away some years ago. He was a heavy smoker!

He was a proud and outstanding tanker!!!!!

I really admired him. He was a leading example for me in respect of conduct of duty, armored tactics and excellent knowledge of tanks! I had met him in 1973 the first time.

I remember quite well in late spring 1977, when the first M60A1 RISE Passive arrived at Daley Barracks. T.J. had asked me, if a was interested in the "new" tank and I was more than pleased to follow his offer.

I remember well, the M60A1 RISE Passive arriving in B K, were delivered in "Forest Green" and stayed quite a while in this livre. As far as I state it correctly, the CWO responsible of 2-11 Sqd supply section was expecting for the near future more M60A1 RISE Passive to replace the M551 Sheridans. If I remember it correctly he called the M551s "a piece of [auto-censored]"!

T.J. even arranged for some sort of exchange program in November 1977, when H Trp was for TCQC in Wildflecken. We had a great time firing the M60A1 RISE Passive during the week we spent with H Trp at Wildflecken. I still call it perfect camaraderie! I'm getting older and my brains aren't not as before! I have forgotten the names of T.J.s Plt Ldr, XO and CO. Quel faux pax!

My close relations with H Trp 2/11 Cav and 3-64 Armor were associated by the fact, my brother-in-law was stationed, as a ROTC 90 days wonder, in Gelnhausen with 1-33 Armor in 1967-1969 as Plt Ldr and and XO, and I spent my summer leave with my sister and Brother-in-law, riding in M113s and M60A1s on the local training area. What fun! This infected me with the "tank bacille". Since than I held the U.S. Army in high regard. I always had, and still have, a keen interest in U.S. armored tactics and U.S. Army history of WW II! I was the perfect man for connections to the U.S. counterparts, and my superiors had realized it.

Panzerbattalion 354 had a partnership with 3-64 Armor, that close, that we had won the Steuben Award in 1976!

It brings back very, very good memories. Listen to country music, Buck Owens, Merle Haggard, Charley Pride and other country singers and hanging around with my U.S. friends; - brings tears to my eyes.

Due to my knowledge of American-English,my name always popped up, when positions had to be filled by the Bundeswehr in U.S. units in Bosnia, Kosovo or Afhganistan from 1998 to 2005, as some sort of liaision officer. I filled the rank of LTC then. Working in HQs was fun, but serving at FOBs in Afghanistan, wasn't that kind of pleasure.

I'm retired now, and I'm in the position now to focus on modelling all sorts of TANK, MEDIUM, GUN, M4 and Cold War AFV, mainly U.S. Army, BAOR vehicles and Canadian AFVs and occasionaly a Belgian or Netherlands AIFV.

In addition, five years ago I started to study at the university in Düsseldorf.
What do you expect - history, in particular of U.S. miltary. In respect to my knowledge of military matters and tactics my wife once mentioned, I would lead the studys absurdity, because I have more than good knowledge in this field.

MAX NIX, I like it and I can mentor students and can offer a helping hand to them.

Now I want to come to the end and can only repeat that this wonderful period of cooperation was a highlight in my military career. Never forgotten!!!!

[quote]Hi Harald, Russ, Thomas and Gary,

your discussion brings back good memories!

I remember quite well in late spring 1977, when the first M60A1 RISE Passive arrived at Daley Barracks. T.J. had asked me, if a was interested in the "new" tank and I was more than pleased to follow his offer.

I remember well, the M60A1 RISE Passive arriving in B K, were delivered in "Forest Green" and stayed quite a while in this livre. As far as I state it correctly, the CWO responsible of 2-11 Sqd supply section was expecting for the near future more M60A1 RISE Passive to replace the M551 Sheridans. If I remember it correctly he called the M551s "a piece of [auto-censored]"!

T.J. even arranged for some sort of exchange program in November 1977, when H Trp was for TCQC in Wildflecken. We had a great time firing the M60A1 RISE Passive during the week we spent with H Trp at Wildflecken. I still call it perfect camaraderie! I'm getting older and my brains aren't not as before! I have forgotten the names of T.J.s Plt Ldr, XO and CO. Quel faux pax!


Yes-- My M60A1 was fairly new when I got to H-Company in the Spring of 1977, but had been painted in MERDC pattern by then. I transferred to F Troop in September, to the awful Sheridan, but we still loved them. I remember SFC Sperry, I believe was in 2nd Platoon. I can't remember the 2Plt leaders name. I think 1st Plt was commanded by LT Harry Owens, The CO was CPT Carter, I commanded 3rd Plt.
My Plt Sgt was SFC Hutton, two of my TCs were SGT Owens and SSG Tatten, The XO was LT Tony Marley. I was replaced by LT Keukenmiester. The Squadron CO was LTC Galbraith. If I think for a while I'll recall the name of the supply CWO you are referring to, I too am getting old, and memories are fading.
VR, Russ

Out of curiosity, what do "TLAC" and "SLAC" stand for / mean? I picked up the AFV Club M60A1 recently and havent had a chance to truly dig into researching it yet. And was that MERDC pattern the same on all tanks, or was the exact pattern / coloring up to the crew?
I'm not at all sure of the tiny details that discern the age of the exact vehicle. Especially with camo / markings!
Sorry if it's a little off-topic or bothersome, Just curious is all.

[/quote]Out of curiosity, what do "TLAC" and "SLAC" stand for / mean? I picked up the AFV Club M60A1 recently and havent had a chance to truly dig into researching it yet. And was that MERDC pattern the same on all tanks, or was the exact pattern / coloring up to the crew?
I'm not at all sure of the tiny details that discern the age of the exact vehicle. Especially with camo / markings!
Sorry if it's a little off-topic or bothersome, Just curious is all.[/quote]

TLAC or SLAC---Top Load or Side Load Air Cleaners. Top load were early air cleaners for M60 or M60A1, side load were the later, commonly found on M60A1 RISE tanks. These terms were not commonly used abbreviations, but M60 aficionados or old tankers would probably understand.
As for MERDC, it was a standardardized paint pattern, for various climates/locales. In Europe either the summer verdant or winter schemes were used, and consisted of Earth Brown, Green, Tan and Black-- these are basic colors, I don't recall exact Federal Stock Number (FSN) names. For winter colors the green was replaced with more brown. In My Squadron repainted twice a year, in March for the summer scheme and October for the winter scheme. I was Assitant S4 and S4 for my last year in the 2/11, my Squadron commander had me running all over Germany looking for a specific shade of light forest green color so our tanks would look slightly different from others. The MERDC schemes were painted using official templates from an FM by free hand using air guns, with the exception of the black, which was done with a spray can. We commonly used axle grease to mask headlights and periscope glass, and the paint was thinned for spraying with MOGAS (gasoline). Each troop would paint their own vehicles in the motor pool. It was not a very sophisticated or complicated method, unlike painting today which uses CARC paint in specialized paint shops.
VR Russ

Out of curiosity, what do "TLAC" and "SLAC" stand for / mean? I picked up the AFV Club M60A1 recently and havent had a chance to truly dig into researching it yet. And was that MERDC pattern the same on all tanks, or was the exact pattern / coloring up to the crew?
I'm not at all sure of the tiny details that discern the age of the exact vehicle. Especially with camo / markings!
Sorry if it's a little off-topic or bothersome, Just curious is all.[/quote]

Top Load or Side Load Air Cleaners. These terms were not commonly used abbreviations, but M60 aficionados or old tankers would probably understand.
As for MERDC, it was a standardardized paint pattern, for various climates/locales, in Europe either the summer verdant or winter schemes were used, and consisted of Earth Brown, Green, Tan and Black-- these are basic colors, I don't recall exact Federal Stock Number (FSN) names. For winter colors the green was replaced with more brown. My Squadron repainted twice a year, in March for the summer scheme and October for the winter scheme. I was Assitant S4 and S4 for my last year in the 2/11, my Squadron commander had me running all over Germany looking for a specific shade of light forest green color so our tanks would look slightly different from others. The MERDC schemes were painted using official templates from an FM by free hand using air guns, with the exception of the black, which was done with a spray can. We commonly used axle grease to mask headlights and periscope glass, and the paint was thinned for spraying with MOGAS (gasoline). Each troop would paint their own vehicles in the motor pool. It was not a very sophisticated or complicated method, unlike painting today which uses CARC paint in specialized paint shops.
VR Russ[/quote]
Thank you very much, it certainly helps to get information about it! My interest was mainly in Soviet armor, which suffers from a lack of english info on stuff like this.
Pretty funny on the green part though, I must imagine that was an amusing job!
Edit: plus, It's nice to have an excuse if I get a slightly 'off' color, if the shades werent fully standardized!

My Squadron repainted twice a year, in March for the summer scheme and October for the winter scheme.

Those tanks must've had a lot layers of paint on them...

Shalta,
The AFV M60-A1 Instructions show you on Step 16 to assemble
the air cleaners. These are the sideloading ones. You see the big handle on the outbd side of Parts K42 and K43. Dont use K32 and F7 which is an indicator and was introduced later on the A3. On Sprue 'B' you also have the parts for the Top Loaders which are 6, 7 24,26, 27, 29 and 14.So check your refs. I also would highly recommend the Legend update set. The gun mantlet is outstanding and an easy fit (dont forget the etched part GA1 before fitting the Legend Mantlet !!!!) For the cupola I used the kits supplied mantlet. I didn't liked the idea, cutting into this part and nothing wrong with the kit part.
Brgds

Thanks! Luckily I checked back on this, I'd never have known about that otherwise.
I'll look into that set soon, I dont intend on starting on my 'A1 for a month or two, but it's always good to know the options.

Not really, by spraying, the thickness of the coats are kept to a minimum, and usually only the winter or summer paints were painted, unless for some reason the entire tank needed repainting-- considering we only had the M60A1 from 1976 to 1980 in the squadron, that's not a lot of painting time. Occasionally, a crew would do some touch up painting with spray cans too. Although it does seem like we did paint a lot-- probably because we didn't just paint the tanks, we painted everything, trucks, APCs, Command tracks, 1/4 tons, Gamma Goats, trailers etc. (although over a period of weeks or months, and on a schedule).
VR Russ

That was the nice thing about the MASSTER paint scheme: You didn't have to repaint for seasonal changes. When it was first introduced to replace the plain "OD" scheme in about 1973 we all thought it strange that the predominant color was desert sand. But you know, once you got out on the tank trail and got covered with dust, it just disappeared.