Gentlemen,
I have an old Tamiya M3 Lee that ive been wanting to put in a European theater dio, but have scoured the net for pics of an example. With no success. Did the fight anywhere else besides N.Africa and the lend lease to the Soviets?
Thanks for any help. -Ziggy
Z
Hosted by Darren Baker
M3 Lees in the European theater?
ziggy1
Joined: July 21, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 - 10:07 PM UTC
russamotto
Joined: December 14, 2007
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Posted: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 - 10:17 PM UTC
They saw limited use in the pacific early on. I believe many were rebuilt into recovery vehicles and used in the ETO, but as a tank they were phased out in North Africa.
http://www.theshermantank.com/tag/arv/
https://panzerserra.blogspot.com/2014_12_01_archive.html
Search the M31 ARV.
http://www.theshermantank.com/tag/arv/
https://panzerserra.blogspot.com/2014_12_01_archive.html
Search the M31 ARV.
JohnTapsell
Joined: August 24, 2011
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Posted: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 - 11:35 PM UTC
You'll also find that a lot of the Canal Defence Light (CDL) M3s in British service were actually Lee hulls, as were all of the US Army CDLs.
The British converted a mix of Lees and Grants form existing stocks and also ordered new hulls direct from America.
The Americans converted virtually all the available cast hull Lees, and then made up the rest of their requirements using welded hull Lees.
Just to give you a flavour of how widely the M3 CDLs were used, at the end of March 1945 there were nearly 100 CDLs operating along the banks of the Rhine (US and British).
Regards,
John
The British converted a mix of Lees and Grants form existing stocks and also ordered new hulls direct from America.
The Americans converted virtually all the available cast hull Lees, and then made up the rest of their requirements using welded hull Lees.
Just to give you a flavour of how widely the M3 CDLs were used, at the end of March 1945 there were nearly 100 CDLs operating along the banks of the Rhine (US and British).
Regards,
John
GarethM
Joined: January 28, 2015
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Posted: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 - 11:50 PM UTC
If you wanted a more ambitious project you could convert the hull to a Ram Kangaroo. There aren't really any Ram kits, since outside of their use in Kangaroo units they never saw action, but it would still make an interesting and rarely seen subject.
ericadeane
Joined: October 28, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 12:54 AM UTC
Poor resin kits of Rams do exist (S Models, Verlinden). Plus a very good one of a RAM OP by Formations. Also, on FB, another RAM kit by a new manufacturer is supposedly on the horizon.
The Formations offering is a candidate for Ram Kangaroo. But do NOT use the Tamiya M3 hull -- that (and the entire kit) is terribly inaccurate.
The only M3s in europe were used for training in the UK. None (besides M3 CDLs and conversions (M31 TRVs)) were used on the continent.
One M3 Grant was converted to a commander's observation vehicle and seen in Italy.
The Formations offering is a candidate for Ram Kangaroo. But do NOT use the Tamiya M3 hull -- that (and the entire kit) is terribly inaccurate.
The only M3s in europe were used for training in the UK. None (besides M3 CDLs and conversions (M31 TRVs)) were used on the continent.
One M3 Grant was converted to a commander's observation vehicle and seen in Italy.
25PDRFG
Joined: August 09, 2009
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 01:07 AM UTC
I wish I knew where the photo came from but the one of the Grant has one at least set of bogies facing the wrong way round and a seat over the 75 and if irc different track.I must look it up.
GarethM
Joined: January 28, 2015
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 02:29 AM UTC
You can always make it Soviet.
Cantstopbuyingkits
Joined: January 28, 2015
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 03:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
You can always make it Soviet.
He said he wanted to put in an ETO diorama, which the Soviets obviously were not part of.
Photoguy1
Joined: September 29, 2016
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 03:22 AM UTC
Some served as gun tanks in Burma (with the British, both Lees and Grants. Grants were also sent to Australia where they became the Aussies MBT.
Cantstopbuyingkits
Joined: January 28, 2015
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 03:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Some served as gun tanks in Burma (with the British, both Lees and Grants. Grants were also sent to Australia where they became the Aussies MBT.
As I said, he wants ETO users only
ChrisDM
Joined: January 01, 2010
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 04:13 AM UTC
It wasn't used in NWE so.... a what if is the only option there. It was obsolete and replaced before the invasion of sicily let alone D-Day
Its only use post africa was in Burma.
There are photos of M31 ARVs in Europe but I have never seen a photo of a Gun tank in the theatre
As for the ram, a new conversion has been released by friendship models and is much better than the other resin options
Its only use post africa was in Burma.
There are photos of M31 ARVs in Europe but I have never seen a photo of a Gun tank in the theatre
As for the ram, a new conversion has been released by friendship models and is much better than the other resin options
ChrisDM
Joined: January 01, 2010
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 04:18 AM UTC
Photoguy1
Joined: September 29, 2016
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 06:57 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextSome served as gun tanks in Burma (with the British, both Lees and Grants. Grants were also sent to Australia where they became the Aussies MBT.
As I said, he wants ETO users only
If you read the OP he asks if they fought anywhere besides N. Africa and with the Soviets.
avenue
Joined: May 25, 2013
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 09:32 AM UTC
watching discovery channel.If I am correct M-3 seen in operation market garden
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 10:03 AM UTC
Quoted Text
watching discovery channel.If I am correct M-3 seen in operation market garden
Many Discovery Channel documentaries do poor research on the stock footage used so it could be from anywhere.
There were Ram kangaroos used though.
RLlockie
Joined: September 06, 2013
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 11:17 AM UTC
Tanks Illustrated book on Allied tanks in Italy has two photos of the Grant command tank, including one which shows the reversed bogie truck. I have an idea that it might be South African (6AD?) but my copy is in storage.
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 11:55 AM UTC
South African 6th Armoured Division command tank, Bologna, Italy, 21st April 1945 :
Another M3 derivative used in the ETO was the M33 artillery tractor. Here's one towing a 240mm howitzer near Mt.Porchia, Italy, 1944 :
H.P.
Another M3 derivative used in the ETO was the M33 artillery tractor. Here's one towing a 240mm howitzer near Mt.Porchia, Italy, 1944 :
H.P.
ChrisDM
Joined: January 01, 2010
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 01:42 PM UTC
I love learning something new, great photos Henri Pierre, thanks for sharing
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 01:54 PM UTC
Quoted Text
South African 6th Armoured Division command tank, Bologna, Italy, 21st April 1945 :
Another M3 derivative used in the ETO was the M33 artillery tractor. Here's one towing a 240mm howitzer near Mt.Porchia, Italy, 1944 :
H.P.
That is a Grant Mark II. Look at the exhaust deflector and extended hull rear, that's a diesel!
Just like that Sol conversion kit.
JSSVIII
Joined: March 28, 2007
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 03:23 PM UTC
Would anyone know what the color scheme would be for that grant in the photos posted by Henri-Pierre?
ChrisJohnson
Joined: June 02, 2005
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KitMaker: 65 posts
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 03:27 PM UTC
Quoted Text
. . . As for the ram, a new conversion has been released by friendship models and is much better than the other resin options
I've built the Formations Ram and admittedly, I've only looked at the images of this new Ram but it looks pretty rough in comparison. What are you basing your comments on that it's much better than the Formations kit?
Chris Johnson
jon_a_its
Joined: April 29, 2004
KitMaker: 1,336 posts
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 03:33 PM UTC
Quoted Text
friendship models Ram conversion http://eshop.friendshipmodels.org.uk/epages/BT3667.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/BT3667/Categories/Wee_Friends/135th_scale/Vehicle_Conversion_sets]here
I got this one, looks pretty good, also availavle as a full kit in 1/48th
Friendship Models have also released a RAM OP/gun tank
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 05:11 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Would anyone know what the color scheme would be for that grant in the photos posted by Henri-Pierre?
Hi, John!
Looks like the US Africa/MTO scheme of "standard" US OD (Pullman Green), with Sand Yellow..?
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 05:41 PM UTC
According to what can be found here : http://smallwarssouth.blogspot.fr/2013/05/28mm-south-african-armour-italy-1944.html
"The SA 6th landed in Taranto, Italy in April 1944 (first entering the line at Monte Cassino) and fought northwards until the end of the war. The "Tunisian" pattern of Light Mud and Blue Black was only used until September in 1944, when the entire division was rested and refitted and all vehicles took on the British Olive Drab equivalent.".....Looks like some AFV's were not repainted
More info about the 6th South African Armoured Division in Italy here :
http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=4400
H.P.
"The SA 6th landed in Taranto, Italy in April 1944 (first entering the line at Monte Cassino) and fought northwards until the end of the war. The "Tunisian" pattern of Light Mud and Blue Black was only used until September in 1944, when the entire division was rested and refitted and all vehicles took on the British Olive Drab equivalent.".....Looks like some AFV's were not repainted
More info about the 6th South African Armoured Division in Italy here :
http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=4400
H.P.
ALBOWIE
Joined: February 28, 2006
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2016 - 02:52 AM UTC
I'd agree with Frenchy that this one is the standard Uk 43 scheme Mud / Blue Black as are the M4A4 behind it.
As for an M3 in the ETO the canadians had them in the UK for Training but these never saw action. Finished in SCC2 with mude chutes and large turret numbers. Makes for an interesting subject.
Al
As for an M3 in the ETO the canadians had them in the UK for Training but these never saw action. Finished in SCC2 with mude chutes and large turret numbers. Makes for an interesting subject.
Al
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