M1A1 blowout panels question
#465
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: September 12, 2014
KitMaker: 398 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 - 06:50 PM UTC
Hi everybody,
As a quick little relaxing build I'm tackling Rye Field Model's new M1A1 Abrams without the interior, but I don't want to build it as an ODS vehicle but as an early M1A1 stationed in Germany in the late 80s.
My question is this: there are two sets of the blowout panels located at the top rear of the turret included in the kit, one set with what I take to be rupture discs and one without:
As you can see, I have followed the instructions and used the discless panels, but does anyone know which type would be more correct for an early M1A1 in the period before ODS?
BTW, even though I've just started it, I can heartily recommend the RFM Abrams - detail is good and the fit is excellent.
I appreciate any assistance.
Jerry
Florida, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 - 07:07 PM UTC
The disks were actually part of an ammo reloading system that was trialed and not accepted. The idea was to be able to lift out an entire side of ammo at a time in a magazine and reload another complete magazine. It didn't work well. The disks could be on an early tank or not, depending if the blow-off panels that had them or not were installed on it during manufacture. Either way is correct as the panels were manufactured and used up until there were none left since they were the same basic panels.
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#465
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: September 12, 2014
KitMaker: 398 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 - 07:20 PM UTC
Hi Gino,
Wow, that was fast! Thanks a lot for the interesting info and clarifying the purpose of those discs - I stand corrected. If either type of panel is correct, I'll just leave on the ones I've already used.
Jerry
Oklahoma, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 - 08:58 PM UTC
Jerry,
Your selection of the blow off panels without the vents and lifting points is correct for a pre-Desert Storm tank in Germany. Those particular panels were introduced with the M1A1 with the DU Armor AKA the M1A1 HAs, which were fielded to several units during late 1989 and into 1990.
The initial M1A1s, which were fielded beginning in 1986, in Germany did not have the engine deck access panels to clean the engine & transmission oil coolers, which I believe were part of the RFM ODS M1A1 kit. Those access panels were present on tanks fielded later in 1987-88 that did not have the DU armor. The tank company that I commanded in 1990 , in Kitzingen, had tanks that were part of that initial fielding of M1A1s to 3rd Infantry Division in 1986-87. I did see a plan that was going to have us turn in our M1A1s for M1A1 HAs in 1991, if OPERATION DESERT SHIELD/STORM as well as Conventional Forces Europe (CFE) Treaty not caused my Brigade to be part of the US Army Europe Drawdown in the early 90's.
Feel free to ask if you have any other questions.
John
John Charvat
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 - 09:26 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Jerry,
Your selection of the blow off panels without the vents and lifting points is correct for a pre-Desert Storm tank in Germany. Those particular panels were introduced with the M1A1 with the DU Armor AKA the M1A1 HAs, which were fielded to several units during late 1989 and into 1990.
The initial M1A1s, which were fielded beginning in 1986, in Germany did not have the engine deck access panels to clean the engine & transmission oil coolers, which I believe were part of the RFM ODS M1A1 kit. Those access panels were present on tanks fielded later in 1987-88 that did not have the DU armor. The tank company that I commanded in 1990 , in Kitzingen, had tanks that were part of that initial fielding of M1A1s to 3rd Infantry Division in 1986-87. I did see a plan that was going to have us turn in our M1A1s for M1A1 HAs in 1991, if OPERATION DESERT SHIELD/STORM as well as Conventional Forces Europe (CFE) Treaty not caused my Brigade to be part of the US Army Europe Drawdown in the early 90's.
Feel free to ask if you have any other questions.
John
correct me if I am reading your comment wrong, but then an M1A1 in ODS would more than likely have the disks?
#465
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: September 12, 2014
KitMaker: 398 posts
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Posted: Thursday, October 20, 2016 - 06:51 PM UTC
John,
Many thanks for the treasure trove of valuable information! Info/pictures of early A1s are really hard to find - there's a fair amount on M1s with the 105mm gun and on A1s starting with Desert Storm but almost nothing in between. Any Google searches along the lines of 'M1A1 Germany 1980s' or similar will only turn up much more recent pictures, and even the Zaloga book on the Abrams (Osprey 1993) didn't state that the engine deck access panels were not present on the early A1s. So hearing from a man who was on the scene is priceless!
Since the section with the engine deck access panels is molded as a seperate part:
it would be cool if a kit appeared (maybe a new tool 105mm M1? drool, drool!) with the access-panelless part so one of these early A1s could be modelled.
In any case, thanks again!
Jerry
#465
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: September 12, 2014
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Posted: Thursday, October 20, 2016 - 06:55 PM UTC
Oh yeah, I almost forgot - since I have your ear, John, I do have one more question:
Did any of the early A1s have the retainer rings on the sprockets. I've only heard/read that this was only something that appeared on the M1s. Thanks!
Jerry
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Thursday, October 20, 2016 - 07:02 PM UTC
This was my commander's tank in 1989. They were brand new tanks, and a very early M1A1 which along with the rest of the battalion tanks, ended up being shipped straight to Saudi when we got new tanks in Aug 1990. As the senior tank company XO, I was in charge of railloading the tanks to Bremerhaven, Germany where they were turned over to folks who shipped them to SWA. Track retaining rings were long gone by 1989.
The brand new tanks we got in 1990 to replace the now one year old tanks had the "sleeping bag mines" on the blast panels. Part of the New Equipment Training was a block of instruction on the removable ammo racks that were never used. On many model sites, people mistakenly identify these as something to do with venting the blast panels, so you are not alone.
This was my first M1A1, unfortunately, I never got around to photographing the second tanks we got.
When the plugs were eventually eliminated, but the non-slip patterns still maintained circles for where the plugs were supposed to be, we called them "crop circles".
Minnesota, United States
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Posted: Thursday, October 20, 2016 - 07:22 PM UTC
I served on brand new 'A1's in '87 and we did not have the sprocket rings, plain blow out panels and no small access hatches on the back deck.
Dan
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#465
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: September 12, 2014
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Posted: Friday, October 21, 2016 - 06:49 PM UTC
Hi Sabot and Dan,
Thank you for the very helpful recollections and Sabot, special thanks for sharing your personal photos - those will come in exceedingly handy when it's time to apply decals and weather the beast.
It's true that many model sites misidentify the discs, even some publications like an Abrams photo book I have. But that's what makes all of your comments on this thread so valuable - thanks again!
Jerry
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Friday, October 21, 2016 - 08:48 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Sabot and Dan,
Thank you for the very helpful recollections and Sabot, special thanks for sharing your personal photos - those will come in exceedingly handy when it's time to apply decals and weather the beast.
It's true that many model sites misidentify the discs, even some publications like an Abrams photo book I have. But that's what makes all of your comments on this thread so valuable - thanks again!
Jerry
Just remember, the first M1A1s into Saudi Arabia
were early M1A1s from Germany. Most of the stateside units didn't have Abrams tanks or just had M1IPs and took the older tanks from units like mine. Most of the USAREUR units that deployed had older M1A1 tanks issued in the mid 80s. Our division sent one battalion (4/34 AR from Mainz) to round out the 3AD. They were slated for deactivation and had the same original M1A1s issued in 1989.
#465
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: September 12, 2014
KitMaker: 398 posts
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Posted: Saturday, October 22, 2016 - 12:32 AM UTC
Hi Sabot,
Good point. Details like the discs on the blowout panels and engine deck access panels (or lack of both) are also important for anyone building an ODS tank.
I knew that a lot of the A1s in ODS had seen service in Germany, but I had always wondered about the dearth of info on them during their first four or five years of service up to that point, that late Cold War period being one of my main modeling interests.
Thanks again,
Jerry
Removed by original poster on 10/23/16 - 01:50:27 (GMT).
Oklahoma, United States
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Posted: Monday, October 24, 2016 - 07:04 AM UTC
Quoted Text
correct me if I am reading your comment wrong, but then an M1A1 in ODS would more than likely have the disks?
Jason,
The M1A1HAs had the vents and lifting eyes for the removable ammo racks. As Rob said above, most of the tanks that were in ODS were M1A1s with M1A1HAs in service with several battalions that brought them from Germany as well as 3rd ACR who had the oldest M1A1s (3ACR received the first set of M1A1s in 1986) and traded them out for HAs within days of crossing the berm on 24 Feb 91. So bottom line is that most of the M1A1s in ODS didn't have the disks...
Jerry,
I will dig through my photo albums and see what tank pics I have... I know that I has some B&W shots from April/May 1991 during a Combined Arms Live Fire Exercise (CALFEX) at Grafenwoehr.
John
John Charvat
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Oklahoma, United States
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Posted: Monday, October 24, 2016 - 07:55 AM UTC
My Dad sent me a couple of pictures that he took in ODS. Here are a couple of Abrams. I don't know which variant they are or any details or if they are any help. Maybe you guys can tell.
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
Oklahoma, United States
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Posted: Monday, October 24, 2016 - 06:57 PM UTC
Dustin,
They are both M1A1s with the bottom one being one from a 24th ID tank battalion - either 3-69 Armor from 1st Brigade, 1-64 Armor or 4-64 Armor from 2d Brigade. There a re no identifying marks on the tank on the flatbed that I can make out.
The "Vee" on the turret was painted on all 24ID combat vehicles.
John
John Charvat
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Monday, October 24, 2016 - 07:01 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
correct me if I am reading your comment wrong, but then an M1A1 in ODS would more than likely have the disks?
Jason,
The M1A1HAs had the vents and lifting eyes for the removable ammo racks. As Rob said above, most of the tanks that were in ODS were M1A1s with M1A1HAs in service with several battalions that brought them from Germany as well as 3rd ACR who had the oldest M1A1s (3ACR received the first set of M1A1s in 1986) and traded them out for HAs within days of crossing the berm on 24 Feb 91. So bottom line is that most of the M1A1s in ODS didn't have the disks...
Jerry,
I will dig through my photo albums and see what tank pics I have... I know that I has some B&W shots from April/May 1991 during a Combined Arms Live Fire Exercise (CALFEX) at Grafenwoehr.
John
Thank you very much, John
New Mexico, United States
Joined: December 04, 2013
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Posted: Sunday, January 15, 2017 - 12:40 AM UTC
I was in 3rd ACR for Desert Shield/Storm. Our tanks were the oldest M1A1s in use. They did not have the round pieces on the blast panels or the access hatches on the engine deck. They also had the old rubber chevron track (is that the T156?) and sprocket rings. We got brand new from the factory M1A1 HA tanks just before the fighting started. These had the access panels, but not the round things on the blast panels (at least mine didn’t). They also had the new rectangular pad tracks (T158?). I don’t know what visual difference there is between the early M1A1 and the HA version, they looked the same to us!
A note on the sprocket rings: despite what has been putout officially, we liked the sprocket rings and thought they helped a lot. When transitioning from older M1s to the M1A1, some units and individual tank crews took the rings off of the old tanks and mounted them on the new ones. So it is possible to see the rings mounted on tanks long after they were officially deleted.
Ken.
Indiana, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 - 10:32 PM UTC
Great discussion! I was in 1/11th ACR until I PCSed to 1/4 Cav. (1stID) just in time for ODS. Our M1A1s in the 11th (picked up in late 1987 or early '88) had the discs. We picked up brand-new M1A1 HA tanks in Saudi and they didn't have the discs. We also had no retaining rings on our sprockets (either time) but wished we had.
Someone mentioned wishing for a well-tooled M1 tank. Me too. A month or so after I arrived at 1/11th ACR, we got a new Squadron C.O., LtC. J.N. Abrams & visited the ever-charming Vilsek & got the 1st M1s issued to a Cav unit in USAEUR. I miss tanking. Sometimes.
Never Forget Sep. 11, 2001
Formerly - SSG J.C. Bailey, M1A1/M1A2 Master Gunner: 4/37 Ar, 194 Bde; USAARENBD; D Co & C Trp 1/11 ACR - Border Legion, PSG of the 1st Plt of Coalition Tanks into Iraq during Operation Desert Storm - A Trp 1/4 ACR 1st Inf Div
Georgia, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 - 10:58 PM UTC
My division (24th Id) deployed to Saudi in early Sept '90, with the M1IP, we did not receive the M1A1 until almost December '90.
Here is a pic of one at the docks after unloading.
This picture was given to me by a 24th ID tanker friend a couple of years ago, of unloading of his M1A1...I do not know of the authenticity of that statement (I was Infantry and had a M2A1) but I cannot see any disks on the blowout panels.
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Posted: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 - 11:08 PM UTC
During my time (1990-94), I never saw any ABRAMS with the Discs on the blowout panels. Even when I was in germany with 3rd Armored, we had the M1A1 Heavys, not one tank in our battalion had them. So, in my opinion, they came out after 94.
Im not discounting that some of the guys here said they saw them, maybe they say prototypes or concepts of future add on's to the tank. Im just saying, during my time, it wasnt even a thought.
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Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 02:46 AM UTC
Lou,
I commanded a tank company in Erlangen from 1991-92, who brought back M1A1 HAs from Saudi which some had the vents in the blow off panels and some didn't. My tank, SN L11171, which had the blow off panel vents and was built in August 89 at Lima, OH. I need to check some pics of the tank that I had as a S-3 in Korea, which was one of the HAs that 3 ACR got just before crossing the berm in 1991, to see if it had vents.
John
John Charvat
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Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 04:01 AM UTC
Hi John,
When I went back to Knox to a training brigade, never saw them. When I was at knox for basic, they were using the 105mm abrams and when I returned they had upgraded to the 120mm. Also, when I we would go over to see the 1/94th, the only active unit on KNOX that wasnt a training brigade, never saw them as well. Other units throughout the army may had possesed them. But hey, they are on them now. lol.
"Our job is not to forgive them, thats gods job. Our job is only to arrange the meeting." General Norman. Scharwzkopf
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Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 11:34 AM UTC
Quoted Text
During my time (1990-94), I never saw any ABRAMS with the Discs on the blowout panels. Even when I was in germany with 3rd Armored, we had the M1A1 Heavys, not one tank in our battalion had them. So, in my opinion, they came out after 94.
Im not discounting that some of the guys here said they saw them, maybe they say prototypes or concepts of future add on's to the tank. Im just saying, during my time, it wasnt even a thought.
Part of our rollover training on our second set of new M1A1 tanks (I was in 5-77 Armor, 8th ID) was about the unused ammo replacement system that the disks were for. Our transition from M60A3TTS to M1A1 was July 1989. Our rollover to the newer heavy M1A1s was August-September 1990. Both were done in Vilseck. That and the new style track were two of the main visual differences between our old and new tanks. During the subsequent field exercise we did at Hohenfels to put the new tanks through their paces, we came up with the term "sleeping bag mines" since they ruined the flat spot to sleep on top of the turret.
I will admit that I did not look at every tank in my company, let alone the battalion to see if they all had them or just some of them. I just assumed they all had the same new additions. I know my tank (A-65) and my commander's tank (A-66) had them. His crew went through rollover with 1st platoon and I went through with 2nd platoon. I do not recall anyone in 2nd saying they didn't have them on their tanks.
#465
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: September 12, 2014
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Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 02:52 PM UTC
Hey everybody,
Thanks a lot for contributing your personal stories! This is exactly the kind of fascinating and useful information which is pretty much impossible to get elsewhere.
Jerry
