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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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great news from bovington
jtrowbridge5
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 02:08 AM UTC
http://tankmuseum.org/year-news/bovnews53673 http://put.url.here http://put.url.here

they also hope to borrow the ELEPHANT FROM THE US and the STURMTIGER from Germany
Beastmaster
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 02:26 AM UTC
Cool stuff. Haven't been down there for years unfortunately.
BootsDMS
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 03:19 AM UTC
This should be very impressive; it would be nice to see the long neglected Jagdtiger exhibit brought up to spec. For far too long it's been tucked away in a crappy paint scheme with some bizarre red and white broomsticks attached to its side.
Precious_rob
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 03:37 AM UTC
The Red and White "broomsticks" on the Jagdtiger were used for range finding and not uncommon to be seen on them.

Personally, and probably not a popular opinion, but with the Elefant being such a rare and unique piece of history, I really don't think it should be loaned out across the globe like they are doing.
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MODELGEEK
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 04:04 AM UTC
I would like to see it but Bovington is just to inaccessible for people living in Scotland, the cost of travelling there is comparable to a trip to Europe these days
BootsDMS
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 04:08 AM UTC
Rob,

A mobile tank hunter such as the Jagdtiger would have no use for sighting poles; these were used by either static (towed)artillery or even SP artillery when emplaced.

There was a debate a while back on this site and it was generally agreed that the "poles" on the hull sides of the Jagdtiger were in fact cleaning rods for the main armament.

I believe that the misinterpretation was due to the cleaning rods being a mix (probably) of wood and metal in their construction; the resulting differing textures and light reflections led some people to think that in black and white renditions of the Jagdtiger that these were sighting poles. As I understand it only 2 poles are used with artillery for the respective left and right arcs of fire; the Jagdtiger carries around 4 or so cleaning rods and I believe that there are locations for these on the hull sides.

What is notable at Bovington is that the Henschel Kingtiger carries cleaning rods on the hull side (albeit from a Chieftain)but that was an initiative from the military at the Weapons Wing of the Staff College at Shrivenham by soldiers who at least tried to make the vehicle authentic (the Henschel Tiger was ultimately loaned or donated to the Tank Museum at Bovington).

A pity to my mind that the Museum staff didn't adopt that idea for the Jagdtiger. The two broomsticks are in fact just that - with points added to the ends.

Brian
Precious_rob
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 04:13 AM UTC
My mistake then. I thought I had read some where that because they were operated by artillery crews in some case, so of their kit made its way on to the vehicles. However I might be remembering something in error or something to that effect. Thanks for the info
BootsDMS
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 04:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

My mistake then. I thought I had read some where that because they were operated by artillery crews in some case, so of their kit made its way on to the vehicles. However I might be remembering something in error or something to that effect. Thanks for the info



Rob,

Roger that; sorry if it turned into a bit of a lecture!

Brian
Precious_rob
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 04:27 AM UTC
No worries Brian, learn something new everyday
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 05:43 AM UTC
Extraordinary.
wanagun
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 07:49 AM UTC
Forgive me if i am wrong but didnt the USA loan the British a Tiger 1 that we never got back. So we are going to loan them something else?
jtrowbridge5
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 02:49 PM UTC
hi scott ,usa got their tiger back a few years ago
bots1141
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 04:04 PM UTC
Does the Sturmtiger still belong to the US or did they give it to Germany???
CMOT
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 04:05 PM UTC
Having been to Bovington Tank Museum on many occasions and seen various aspects of the museum I have no concerns about the welfare of the two vehicles being borrowed and put on display. The argument about moving items around the world and rarity does not hold water as much older and rarer items do the same such as the 'Tutankhamun' exhibit that travels around the globe.

I could also argue that the US has not taken care of some of the vehicles in their care having kept them outside in all weathers. With that said I do accept that moving something like this over water risks losing it forever. What I am surprised about is that the US has not supplied an Abrams and Bradly to the museum for display as Bovington has an exceptional display of American armour going all the way back to the Mk VIII International tank.
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 04:30 PM UTC
looking forward to seeing this, hope Peter Gudgin is there, never met him before, worked with his son in Germany though, A Major in the RTR, very proud of his father's work with Tiger 131.
This will be a world leading AFV exhibition, another first For the tank Museum.
vettejack
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 04:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text

http://tankmuseum.org/year-news/bovnews53673 http://put.url.here http://put.url.here

they also hope to borrow the ELEPHANT FROM THE US and the STURMTIGER from Germany



Your links seem to not be functioning. Would you please indicate what the news is about so I could look it up for myself?? Thanx!
ziggyfoos
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 04:52 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

http://tankmuseum.org/year-news/bovnews53673 http://put.url.here http://put.url.here

they also hope to borrow the ELEPHANT FROM THE US and the STURMTIGER from Germany



Your links seem to not be functioning. Would you please indicate what the news is about so I could look it up for myself?? Thanx!



his first link works
http://tankmuseum.org/year-news/bovnews53673

I imagine that is the only one that is supposed to work.
ninjrk
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 08:32 PM UTC
I hate to say this as it makes the vehicles even less accessible to me but I honestly would be fine if we shipped everything formerly from Aberdeen and Knox to Bovington. The people at the Patton museum did a really good job keeping the collection in good condition but now it's rusting away alongside the road. The stuff from Aberdeen was always a mess and I will never forget getting great interior shots of the various tanks by shoving my camera through the rusted out holes in the vehicles. Bovington (or Saumur or Munster) actually takes care of their vehicles so I'd rather have them overseas than turn into piles of rust and scrap in the US.

Phew, sorry. Rant over. . .
Bonaparte84
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 10:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Rob,

A mobile tank hunter such as the Jagdtiger would have no use for sighting poles; these were used by either static (towed)artillery or even SP artillery when emplaced.

There was a debate a while back on this site and it was generally agreed that the "poles" on the hull sides of the Jagdtiger were in fact cleaning rods for the main armament.

I believe that the misinterpretation was due to the cleaning rods being a mix (probably) of wood and metal in their construction; the resulting differing textures and light reflections led some people to think that in black and white renditions of the Jagdtiger that these were sighting poles. As I understand it only 2 poles are used with artillery for the respective left and right arcs of fire; the Jagdtiger carries around 4 or so cleaning rods and I believe that there are locations for these on the hull sides.

Brian



Remember that discussion as well. I think the common explanation most agreed upon was that the black and white pcitures used as "reference" for two coloured cleaning rods (or whatever) were all made on a firing range, thus not deppicting a vehicle in the field... As far as I know, no one has ever shown a picture of a Jagdtiger with two-coloured cleaning rods on the front...
Precious_rob
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Posted: Friday, November 04, 2016 - 01:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Having been to Bovington Tank Museum on many occasions and seen various aspects of the museum I have no concerns about the welfare of the two vehicles being borrowed and put on display. The argument about moving items around the world and rarity does not hold water as much older and rarer items do the same such as the 'Tutankhamun' exhibit that travels around the globe.

I could also argue that the US has not taken care of some of the vehicles in their care having kept them outside in all weathers. With that said I do accept that moving something like this over water risks losing it forever. What I am surprised about is that the US has not supplied an Abrams and Bradly to the museum for display as Bovington has an exceptional display of American armour going all the way back to the Mk VIII International tank.



Moving it over water is basically what the point if my statement was. I do not doubt that Bovington will treat the piece with the utmost respect, but on the way there, although unlikely, you never know what could happen. And just another thing that bothers me about this loan, is that too my knowledge, we aren't getting anything sent over here in trade. If we are willing to send the Elefant cross the Atlantic, why not have "131" come state side for a couple months afterwards?

As for how some of our pieces are cared for in various institutions over here, sadly that was the normal across the board just about everywhere in the world for a time. We both know how many pieces Bovington pulled off of ranges or stuff that sat behind Samuar just was well as sat open air at Aberdeen.
windsheer
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Posted: Friday, November 04, 2016 - 04:11 AM UTC
not sure what you point is, America was given a Tiger 1 by the British Army in Tunisia in WW2, America had one tiger 1 and left it to rust outside and worse let collectors grab bits off it over the years. Bovington's Tiger is indoors, has been since it was given to the Museum by the Army. The range wrecks dragged out of the mud are more common British tanks. It's common practice to use obsolete equipment as hard targets as we all know.
Precious_rob
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Posted: Friday, November 04, 2016 - 04:24 AM UTC
My point is by implying that we are the only ones that took shoddy care of some the pieces in the past (not denying the truth in the statement) is a mute point because most countries museums haven't done much better up until the last couple decades. And if I'm not mistaken, the last surviving Panther F turret was found where? I believe on a British range.
Klaus-Adler
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Posted: Friday, November 04, 2016 - 05:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text

My point is by implying that we are the only ones that took shoddy care of some the pieces in the past (not denying the truth in the statement) is a mute point because most countries museums haven't done much better up until the last couple decades. And if I'm not mistaken, the last surviving Panther F turret was found where? I believe on a British range.



i think the point here is that all sides have made mistakes regarding the care and maintenance of historic vehicles, so lets all play nice now guys an gals :-)
CMOT
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Posted: Sunday, November 06, 2016 - 02:47 PM UTC
Rob you are spot on about the F turret and I have added pictures of that turret to this site.

Reference common British armour on ranges I suggest a look at the remains of the 3inch armed Churchill that is still outside and stored behind the wire of the coach park.

Getting back to Rob again: I do feel that some sort return favour is in order, unless of course the deal is that Bovington will bring the tank up to a display standard in return.
erichvon
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Posted: Sunday, November 06, 2016 - 04:14 PM UTC
I'll definitely make the effort to go down and have a look at this. I've not been to Bovington for about 20 years so imagine a lot will have changed in that time. Rob, Aberdeen is a travesty as a museum as even now priceless vehicles are sat outside rusting away while European museums are restoring vehicles not only for display but some to running condition. The privately owned Jagdpanther in running order was built out of two range targets which shows how much effort is put into vehicle restoration here. Obviously post WW2 once evaluation had been done on captured vehicles some did end up as range targets (like the Schmalturm turret which was found half buried) but the vast majority of range targets I've seen on training areas are Cold War tanks as they became available. Occasionally something of interest, usually WW2 surplus British vehicles are found and towed away in the hope of restoration or at least as parts. As Matt said, in an ideal world the inventory of Aberdeen would be shipped over here to Bovington where they can sympathetically restore the vehicles for future generations to admire rather than rust away outside. It would be the ultimate tank museum.
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