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What Color For British Captured Vehicles
Charleygnarlyp290
Joined: May 07, 2013
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Posted: Sunday, November 20, 2016 - 10:49 AM UTC
I am currently building a German Sdkfz 251/9 that was captured in Holland and pressed into service. According to the photo I have seen it was repainted in an allied color. What would that color have been? OD,or did the British use something else?
GarethM
Joined: January 28, 2015
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Posted: Sunday, November 20, 2016 - 11:01 AM UTC
Why would the British press an Sdkfz251 captured in Holland into service with plenty of M3s going around?
I would assume that usage as an ambulance makes the most sense as that would free up other vehicles for frontline use.
Allied white star and OD green make sesne to me.
I would assume that usage as an ambulance makes the most sense as that would free up other vehicles for frontline use.
Allied white star and OD green make sesne to me.
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, November 20, 2016 - 08:57 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Why would the British press an Sdkfz251 captured in Holland into service with plenty of M3s going around?
Probably for similar reasons they used this: http://i.imgur.com/0IsH51p.jpg ; it was free, and it worked!
Charleygnarlyp290
Joined: May 07, 2013
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Posted: Sunday, November 20, 2016 - 09:47 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Why would the British press an Sdkfz251 captured in Holland into service with plenty of M3s going around?
I would assume that usage as an ambulance makes the most sense as that would free up other vehicles for frontline use.
Allied white star and OD green make sesne to me.
Not sure why they would, but they did. I am just not familiar enough with British vehicles to know if they used the same green as US OD
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2016 - 10:47 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Not sure why they would, but they did. I am just not familiar enough with British vehicles to know if they used the same green as US OD
Technically no, the British version of OD was SCC15. However, when applied new it was virtually indistinguishable from US OD (that was the desired effect, after all).
So paint it in your favourite US OD (I like Tamiya) but don't fade it. It should be very new paint. It can be worn away as the field applied stuff didn't wear well at all (especially as it was frequently painted right over dirt and stowage and the like) but the colour shouldn't show any indications of fading. These captured vehicles never lasted long in Allied service as they soon ran out of spares and were abandoned.
HTH
Paul
Charleygnarlyp290
Joined: May 07, 2013
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Posted: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 12:51 AM UTC
Don't know what happened to the pic, but let's try again.
Charleygnarlyp290
Joined: May 07, 2013
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Posted: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 12:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextNot sure why they would, but they did. I am just not familiar enough with British vehicles to know if they used the same green as US OD
Technically no, the British version of OD was SCC15. However, when applied new it was virtually indistinguishable from US OD (that was the desired effect, after all).
So paint it in your favourite US OD (I like Tamiya) but don't fade it. It should be very new paint. It can be worn away as the field applied stuff didn't wear well at all (especially as it was frequently painted right over dirt and stowage and the like) but the colour shouldn't show any indications of fading. These captured vehicles never lasted long in Allied service as they soon ran out of spares and were abandoned.
HTH
Paul
Thanks Paul for the helpful reply.
And thanks for the tip of not fading it. That is the plan. I first painted the vehicle in dunkelgelb, then I am going to paint it in Tamiya OD (my new favorite brand of paint) and lightly chip is up. I have the decal set for the vehicle in my photo above, so it should be a reasonable representation.
Thanks again for the help, people.
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 10:12 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Why would the British press an Sdkfz251 captured in Holland into service with plenty of M3s going around?
The use of captured vehicles in Allied service is much rarer than their use in German hands, but it did happen and often enough that there is a reasonable selection of Axis vehicles that can be modeled in Allied service.
The key determinate as to whether a vehicle would be taken into service seems to be as simple as "Does having this vehicle provide any use to us right now?". So you see kublewagens, kettenrads, SdKfz 251s, Opel trucks and even a Panther taken up because the allied unit had a use for it and the CO didn't tell them not to. They were used until their usefulness was at an end, frequently because they ran out of spares or needed work done that the local LAD couldn't manage. Sometimes they were abandoned for a reason as simple as it ran out of ammo or gas.
A Canadian infantry unit in Italy took up an ex-Italian Semovente 75/18 and used it to knock down buildings for a couple days until it ran out of ammo and they abandoned it and moved on. In that time, though it acquired a couple hasty markings to reduce the chances that it would be shot at by other Allied troops. And then it was gone.
Captured enemy vehicles in Allied hands were pretty ephemeral and totally at the whim of the individual capturing.
They are the sort of thing you pretty much have to model by looking at a photo of an actual vehicle and modelling that. There are no generalisations.
Paul
GregVHill
Joined: September 10, 2011
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Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 08:53 AM UTC
I wouldn't act in the assumption that the vehicle has been repainted at all, apart from the red crosses for the reasons well stated above. Nobody was going to invest time in keeping it moving with no spares and repaintung it is just too damn much work under combat conditions. That was a medical unit. They were about stretcher counts and saving lives - not OD paint....
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 07:10 PM UTC
On the contrary, both the Americanized and Anglicized 251's look too dark to be still Dunklegelb. Especially the English 251 - it looks very similar in tonal value to the other vehicles in the column. Also none of the original German markings are visible (as also in the case of the US 251), so they appear to have been completely repainted.
barkingdigger
Associate Editor
#013
Joined: June 20, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 07:40 PM UTC
I wonder if these were treated as special cases - resprayed in OD specifically to make them look less German? Wouldn't want any "friendly fire" incidents!
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 07:43 PM UTC
Captured German vehicles in US service :
http://wikingeretw.com/WikingerForum/showthread.php?tid=244
H.P.
http://wikingeretw.com/WikingerForum/showthread.php?tid=244
H.P.
Charleygnarlyp290
Joined: May 07, 2013
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Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 08:01 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I wouldn't act in the assumption that the vehicle has been repainted at all, apart from the red crosses for the reasons well stated above. Nobody was going to invest time in keeping it moving with no spares and repaintung it is just too damn much work under combat conditions. That was a medical unit. They were about stretcher counts and saving lives - not OD paint....
A couple of points on the photo I posted above.
First, this late in the war most German vehicles were painted dunkelgelb, so it definitely looks to have been painted.
Second, if they took the time to add a mount for a .50 cal machine gun, taking the time to paint it isn't much of a stretch. A spray gun and compressor would make pretty quick use of a paint job, even in combat conditions.
I think they would pass the vehicle up if they weren't going to take the time to repaint it. The risk of a friendly fire incident would outweigh the usage of a vehicle still painted in the enemy's colors.
GregVHill
Joined: September 10, 2011
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Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 08:18 PM UTC
They put giant red crosses on it. End of story. That should have given everybody all the disincentive they needed to fire on the vehicle. (Except probably the SS. They were real baddies.
The big red crosses on the vehicle render the nationality of the vehicle of secondary importance. There were frequent instances of local truces and the medical troops of each side, in Europe, working - more or less- intermingled.
GregVHill
Joined: September 10, 2011
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Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 08:28 PM UTC
Though moving on to the British pic, I'd have to agree that's a repaint to the standard greenish British Drab color. Very interesting it's an American M2 .50. Somebody was a master scrounged as those things were worth their weight in gold to the Commonwealth forces as demand definitely outstripped supply of those!
RLlockie
Joined: September 06, 2013
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Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 10:11 PM UTC
The .50 was part of the CES kit for an M4 so given the general unpopularity of it in British units (it tended to get in the way when baling out), it's quite likely that they were available on replacement tanks. One ex-GAD veteran told me that in his unit they buried a load of .50s in Normandie because they were more trouble than they were worth. Not a big stretch to imagine someone in a unit taking such unwanted kit off the hands of a crew who wanted rid of it.
RickC5
Joined: June 02, 2016
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Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 - 02:34 AM UTC
As Paul stated: "The use of captured vehicles in Allied service is much rarer than their use in German hands, but it did happen and often enough that there is a reasonable selection of Axis vehicles that can be modeled in Allied service.
Captured enemy vehicles in Allied hands were pretty ephemeral and totally at the whim of the individual capturing."
FWIW, my father was in the US 75th Infantry Division in the ETO from the Battle of the Bulge until Germany's surrender. According to him, many abandoned German vehicles simply ran out of gas and once some gas was added, started up and ran fine. He said that they tried starting every soft-skinned vehicle they came across (no armor) in an effort to supplement the few trucks/jeeps they had. I have a photo of him with an Opel Blitz truck (still in German 3-color camo) that they used for quite some time. The thought was "If we can ride, we're not walking."
I doubt that infantry divisions had much use for spray painting equipment in the field.
Captured enemy vehicles in Allied hands were pretty ephemeral and totally at the whim of the individual capturing."
FWIW, my father was in the US 75th Infantry Division in the ETO from the Battle of the Bulge until Germany's surrender. According to him, many abandoned German vehicles simply ran out of gas and once some gas was added, started up and ran fine. He said that they tried starting every soft-skinned vehicle they came across (no armor) in an effort to supplement the few trucks/jeeps they had. I have a photo of him with an Opel Blitz truck (still in German 3-color camo) that they used for quite some time. The thought was "If we can ride, we're not walking."
I doubt that infantry divisions had much use for spray painting equipment in the field.
thenorm
Joined: July 13, 2010
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Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 - 06:38 AM UTC
On the subject of captured 251s, would love to tackle this one, quite a lot of work done on it to make it into an impromptu Xylophone-esque MLRS using the launchers from Sherman Calliopes, five were converted as I recall as mobile rocket launchers were needed for an assault across a river (Rhine I believe, unfortunately I did not save the description of these photos). Goes to show where there's a will there's a way.
By the way, does anyone know where I can get the full gun and breech for a Sherman that I'd need to tackle this?
By the way, does anyone know where I can get the full gun and breech for a Sherman that I'd need to tackle this?
GazzaS
#424
Joined: April 23, 2015
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Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 - 06:58 AM UTC
The Coldstream Guards used a captured Panther shortly after Market Garden. Even fired at the Germans with it on 27 November 1944 at Geijesteren Castle. It fought on through winter until the fuel pump failed during Operation Veritable.
ericadeane
Joined: October 28, 2002
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Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 - 05:32 PM UTC
Quoted Text
By the way, does anyone know where I can get the full gun and breech for a Sherman that I'd need to tackle this?
thenorm: That's actually not a Sherman breech but one from a 5cm Pak 38. They cut down the gun tube and used the elevation mechanism to raise/lower the T-34 tube array.
thenorm
Joined: July 13, 2010
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Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 - 08:06 PM UTC
Wow, yea, I did not notice that, I had assumed that they just lifted the tubes and gun from the Shermans, but this make more sense given the fact that they are kludging them together.
Seroster
Joined: July 22, 2016
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Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 - 09:04 AM UTC
I followed this thread with interest and was just looking over my newly acquired copy of British Armor In Sicily And Italy. There's a picture of a captured Marder - no surprise there - but it's clearly been given a two-tone camouflage pattern resembling the "mickey mouse" pattern, with a somewhat sloppily painted RAF roundel on the side, and also some kind of unit marking on the rear. (A two-toned square, darker above, I an't figure out the symbol in the upper half, 65 below.) IWM NA10439, says the book.
The captured 251 that Brett posted is really neat
The captured 251 that Brett posted is really neat
gastec
Joined: February 03, 2014
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Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 - 09:18 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I followed this thread with interest and was just looking over my newly acquired copy of British Armor In Sicily And Italy. There's a picture of a captured Marder - no surprise there - but it's clearly been given a two-tone camouflage pattern resembling the "mickey mouse" pattern, with a somewhat sloppily painted RAF roundel on the side, and also some kind of unit marking on the rear. (A two-toned square, darker above, I an't figure out the symbol in the upper half, 65 below.) IWM NA10439, says the book.
Pretty sure DML included those markings in one of their Marder kits.
Gary
ReluctantRenegade
Joined: March 09, 2016
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Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 01:45 PM UTC
I think we're talking about this fellow here... http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa242/_Exocet_/My%20Models/g_zps1a8086f1.jpg
ReluctantRenegade
Joined: March 09, 2016
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Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 01:46 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI followed this thread with interest and was just looking over my newly acquired copy of British Armor In Sicily And Italy. There's a picture of a captured Marder - no surprise there - but it's clearly been given a two-tone camouflage pattern resembling the "mickey mouse" pattern, with a somewhat sloppily painted RAF roundel on the side, and also some kind of unit marking on the rear. (A two-toned square, darker above, I an't figure out the symbol in the upper half, 65 below.) IWM NA10439, says the book.
Pretty sure DML included those markings in one of their Marder kits.
Gary
Correct: http://modelingmadness.com/oldpom/6464b.jpg
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