I posted this wrongly on the generic forum "Modelling in general" - apologies (!)

Is my memory failing or did the M37 ever see service in the MASSTER scheme of the early/mid 70s?

I have a vague recollection of seeing some in just such the scheme around 1974/5.

The Roden model is currently on my list of "wants".

Can anyone confirm either way?

Thanks, in advance.

Anyone?

Not sure, but I vaguly remember that I saw such a truck in MASSTER on a photo long time ago.

Thanks Hans-Hermann; all a bit of a conundrum

I believe the M37 series were replaced by the Kaiser Jeep M715 series - which I have seen in MASSTER - but there must have been an overlap I would have thought.

I cannot quite recall whether or not I saw the M37 vehicles in Germany or possibly on a big exercise on Salisbury Plain in the md 70s; it might have been the latter but as they were US Airborne units deployed from the States it seems that cannot have sported MASSTER - or could they?

Any of our American cousins with views on this?

Hmmm.. I was in Germany in 1977, traveled quite a bit, and never saw a single M37 at all by that time. We had the M151, Gamma Goat, and were just getting the Dodge 880(later called the CUCV) in service. I was in the 11th ACR, and we did have one ambulance version of he M37 at our Camp Lee border camp, but turned it in by 1978 because there were no parts available in the system for repair. So although I can't really answer the question, it seems obvious the M37 was well on its way out by the mid 70s. but it doesn't mean someone didn't have one. I saw Gama Goats in the MASSTER scheme for sure.
VR, Russ

It was in a combat illustrated or some such back in the 1970s? I remember the thing that got me were the huge black stars.

Two trips to FRG in the 70s, and I saw a number of M37s, but all were OD with either white or black markings to include national insignia. The M715 Gladiators were in both OD and the MERDC pattern, but I cannot recall seeing any in the MASSTER pattern.

There were numerous MERDC M37s rolling around Texas and California, both in desert and temperate patterns.

Interesting reading and references:

DOCUMENT LIST FOR - Camouflage

Camouflage Pattern Painting Report Of USAMERDC's Camoulge Support Team to MASSTER

Ft. Hood was the location of Project MASSTER:

Brian, one thing I've learned about things in the US Army, and that is, never say never.

However, that said, I think it is highly unlikely that there were any M-37 vehicles IN THE US Army Europe, which were painted in the MASSTER scheme.

It's a bit of a long story, but here's my supporting evidence.

I arrived in Germany in October 1972, and was assigned to 1st Bn., 2nd FA, 8th ID, V Corps in Baumholder. There are two things that I can say with certainty:

When I arrived the MASSTER paint scheme had NOT YET been put into effect for USAREUR. I've been unable to get my hands on a copy on the actual source document which ordered the change, but it was probably USAREUR Reg 525-5 (or perhaps 525-6) and dated 01 July 1973. I say probably, because I have not found a DIRECT reference to this document.

So if anybody can find a copy of USAREUR Reg 525-5 or 525-6 from July or so of 1973 please let me know!

There is a reference to VII Corps Regulation 525-6 of 01 July 1973 in an article from the AFV-G2 magazine which describes the program, and provides the colors and a few vehicle outlines. (If I were able to get my hands on THIS document it would almost certainly reference the USAREUR document which directed VII Corps to take action, but I have been unable to locate a copy of this document either).

These outlines actually came from a directive published by USAREUR back in 1966, but with slightly different colors and was cancelled before it was actually implemented. I actually have copies of the 1966 documents, which eventually led to the implementation in 1973, but while I have the BACKGROUND documents, I haven't been able to locate the IMPLEMENTATION documents.

I know for a fact that in my unit (which was a V Corps and NOT a VII Corps unit) we began to paint our vehicles in the summer of 1973 and we had some sort of directive WITH CHARTS instructing us what to do. It could NOT have been the VII Corps Reg, because that would NOT have applied to us. So there MUST have been a comparable V Corps Reg with the same number (that's how the system worked) from about the same time directing V Corps to paint vehicles.

And neither Corps would have undertaken these measures without direction from USAREUR, so by implication there would have had to have been a USAREUR Reg. directing this action.

As I said, I do not have copies of ANY of these Regulations from 1973 (it's a real mystery why nobody can seem to find them!), but suffice to say starting in the summer of 1973, all USAREUR tactical vehicles began the process of being painted in the MASSTER scheme.

Which brings me to the second thing I know. As of October of 1972 when I arrived in Germany, none of the Divisional units AS FAR AS I KNOW, still had any M-37s on hand.

There MAY have been some support units which still used the M-37 as the "3/4 Ton" Cargo vehicle, but I know the Gamma Goat was in use by all of the Divisional Combat Arms (Armor, Infantry and Artillery) units, and so far as I know all of the Divisional support units as well (Maint, Commo, Engineer, MP etc.).

There MAY have still been some units SOMEWHERE in Germany which still had not replaced their M-37s with Gamma Goats, but I don't remember ever having seen one. There were a lot of Corps Level and higher units in Germany as well, but as I said, to do not recall ever seeing any M-37s at that time.

So my recommendation would be, if you have an actual photo of an M-37 from a US Army Europe unit in the MASSTER scheme, by all means make and paint one up. But when doing so, to be accurate, I would recommend that you only use the bumper numbers of the vehicle in the photo.

To paint up an M-37 as being from one of the Tactical units in the MASSTER scheme would very likely NOT be correct.

Well, thanks to all for the responses.

I've just re-read the Tankograd book on the MASSTER, MERDC and Dualtex schemes and it hints strongly there that experimental schemes began as early as 1968 (which would I imagine) encompass the M37's dwindling service.

Thinking back (after racking my brains)to the exercise I attended on Salisbury Plain around 1974/5 all the US vehicles involved were definitely in a version of MASSTER: these included M35 trucks, Gama Goats, and M274 Mules. I am now pretty certain that there were some M37s involved because at the time my young brain mis-identified them as the Dodge trucks of WW2 origin (and I made a long term modelling note to acquire some). Needless to say, I had no camera back then.

In a way I suppose I've now answered my own question, reinforced by the Tankograd book indicating that possibly other units (other than German-based ones) may have had the scheme, or a variant of it.

I think I'll take a chance and model one - although identifying accurate bumper numbers will pose another problem!

Thanks again for all your help.

Brian

I was stationed at Illesheim from '81-85. I spent a lot of time at Graf and I remember there was a motor pool near the railhead. There were numerous derelict vehicles, such as M114s, some older Deuce-and-a-Halves, jeeps and a few trashed M37s parked along the fence line. They were all painted OD.

Brian - I went through the Tanograd book too, didn't notice any M37s, but I was thinking along the same lines as you. From reading, I figured that the seventh army had been experimenting early. Even more likely, I know support units and such are always the last to get anything new, so if it runs, they try to keep it around. It's not like your thinking of painting up a Sherman in 3 color NATO...

I love the MASSTER camo, my all time favorite! Here's my M60a1:

That's for sure (re issue of new kit): I recall in my first posting at 1st British Corps HQ in 1971 that one of the Staff branches (Provost I think) had an office truck (what we call Box Bodied Vehicles) on the venerable Bedford QL chassis; so much for the modern professional British Army I'd just joined! I was also issued '37 Pattern webbing which was a real retrograde step to my keen eyes especially as during my last few months of training we were permitted the more modern '58 pattern.

Back to the topic: the MASSTER scheme to my eyes is certainly one of the more interesting finishes. 'Love the M60A1. So far I've produced an M60A1 myself, the M577 and an M113 with trailer. if you send me your personal email by pm I'll happily swap a few pictures (I'm sure it's relatively simple to upload within a post such as this but so far I've been unable to do so - probably a combination of fat fingers and thin brain).

Thanks again for the response.

Brian

This post is pretty long and really pertains more to an in depth history of the "MASSTER" paint scheme.


I've read the Tankograd book, and here are some comments based on photo copies of source material that I have.

Per the book: "Due to the scope of the trials, it is misleading to speak of MASSTER camouflage, but as the pattern tested by units of USAREUR/7th (US)Army is commonly known as such, we will retain this terminology here."

If you change the word "tested" to "used", I totally agree with this statement. I have a copy of the US Army's Mobility Equipment Research and Development Center (MERDC)report to the US Army's Modern Army Selected Systems Test, Evaluation and Review (MASSTER)team at Fort Hood Texas, dated February 1974 which is described in the Tankograd book.

As described, extensive testing occurred at Ft. Hood, but the plans and patterns described in this report as well as the fact that it was issued in Feb 1974, make it clear that what USAREUR/7th Army began doing in July of 1973, was not a DIRECT result of this testing. So what USAREUR/7th Army did probably SHOULDN'T be called MASSTER, but everybody does, so that's that.

Tankograd further goes on to state: "During the research for this work, former US soldiers mentioned that experiments with camouflage patterns were conducted by USAREUR/7th (US) Army units as early as 1968. There was no way to verify this information at the time of writing, so this has to be treated as speculation and it is not the subject of this work."

This is only partially correct. I have photo copies of documents which show conclusively that there was in fact a program which was authorized, (but evidently not actually ever IMPLEMENTED USAREUR wide) per USAREUR Reg 746-5 dated 28 April 1966.

Several things to note about this. The first thing is, that General Abrams, as the Vice Chief of Staff, made a visit to Germany in the summer of 1966, and offered the Commander in Chief of USAREUR "help" from the Army's Engineering Center for USAREUR's program. A team from the US visited Germany in Feb-March of 1967, and between the two HQs, correspondence exists to show that USAREUR had a DRAFT of a new reg (now re-numbered 525-5) which was created in Germany and favorably reviewed by the team from the Engineering Center. But for SOME reason or reasons (I have some guesses, but only that), the program just simply disappears for the next 6 years.

The second thing is that in December of 1966, PRIOR to the arrival of the CONUS staff assistance team, USAREUR issued a 38 page supplement to the Reg 746-5 consisting of patterns for 12 different vehicles, with outlines of where each shape was to be chalked on to the vehicles, with numbers 1-4 indicating which color paint was to go in each area.

There are two important things to know about these patterns from December 1966. The first is that the COLORS specified in each area are NOT the same as those used when vehicles were actually painted starting in 1973. The second is that the PATTERNS actually show up again.

Tankograd goes on to say:
"The pattern and colors that had to be used for the MASSTER camouflage were prescribed in 'USAREUR Regulation 525-5'."

Tankograd does not indicate a DATE for this Reg. But while it COULD refer to the 525-5 mentioned back in June of 1967, I suspect that it was a NEW version issued in June 1973, because the colors specified in the original version have now been changed to include "Sand".

There was an article published in AFV-G2 which mentions a "VII Corps Reg 525-6" dated 1 June 1973, (VII Corps is one of two "next level down" commands from USAREUR, the other being V Corps) and includes patterns AND color codes for two vehicles, a tank and an M-113. The COLORS specified in the article are in fact the same four colors (in the same areas) that were used to paint all of the USAREUR/7th (US) Army vehicles in what we all call the MASSTER scheme.

But the PATTERNS in that article are the identical patterns originally created in December of 1966. Only the COLORS have been changed. What I think this means is that while there may have been some vehicles painted in the PATTERN shapes of the MASSTER scheme as early as 1967, that version of the Reg did NOT specify Sand, it called for that area to be a mix of Green and Field Drab. So any early vehicles wouldn't have looked the same. How and why this area changed to Sand is the mystery.

So I think as far as it goes, Tankograd has the history correct, but are missing a few of the background details.

So again, the bottom line is, if the intent is to paint an M-37 in the MASSTER scheme, by all means, go for it, just realize that it probably isn't "historically" accurate for what THAT'S worth (absent a photo). Given that the MASSTER scheme didn't come into use until July of 1973, and the earlier versions specified a Green/Field Drab area instead of Sand, I think it unlikely that there were any M-37's painted in it, as I think that for the most part they were out of the inventory by that time. But as I said before, when you're talking about what "Joe" does compared to what the REGS say, all bets are off!

I posted a link for a PDF version of that report in my first post. USAREUR Reg 525-5 from that time period, however, is tough to track down.

Finding a serviceable M37 in USAREUR in 1974 would likely be difficult. As I mentioned before, our M43 (M37 version ambulance) at Camp Lee on the E/W Border was really a wreck by 1977-- no parts were available in the system at all. It was painted a faded OD green, and rusting out in places, We used it just one time to transport a compound fracture victim from Camp Lee to the Aid Station in Bad Kissingen-- a distance of about 18 Miles (must have been some ride for that poor guy). It was not authorized in the MTO&E, and was considered obsolete. When it came back from that trip it was deadlined for a head gasket and worn U-Joints, and a seriously bad brake cylinder (the driver had to refill the reservoir every 10 miles or so!). I was there when it was towed out of Camp Lee in the summer of 1977 to the CAN point (cannibalization point) at Kitzigen. It was never seen again. That was the only M37 type truck I saw in my entire military career outside of a museum. If they were still around in 1974, I seriously doubt they were being used for actual operations, even as hacks. I first came into the Reserves in 1972, going active in 1976, but in those 4 years I never saw an M37 in use, and I was frequently on Fort Lewis WA (9th ID) during that time. I really think they had mostly been replaced in the active inventory by 1975. However, I do think I've seen one in a variation of the MASSTER scheme somewhere, maybe in just a pub or reg., but not on an operational vehicle. We have one at the Fort Lewis Museum here-- it's pretty beat up, but I might go "scrape some paint" and see what's underneath-- Fort Lewis was the Army's High Technology Test Bed (HTTB) in the late 70s and early 80s-- they did all kinds of weird stuff here.
VR, Russ

I'm pretty sure that it's from your link that I have a copy of that report. And as you said, finding the USAREUR Reg 525-5 (from 1973) which is what authorized and described the MASSTER scheme which actually was implemented has proven to be surprisingly difficult.

Gentlemen,

Thank you so much for your very informative replies and references; who'd a thought that a relatively innocuous question would lead to so much research and information. I found the reports in particular fascinating; all very interesting in that around the same time as the US Army was researching the efficacy of numerous camouflage paints, the British Army decided on just the two - Green and Black!

On reflection I'll take heed of your comments and when it comes to acquiring - let alone building - the Roden model I think I'll play it safe and go for as much accuracy as possible and portray it in good old Olive Drab. Otherwise without photographic proof anything in MASSTER is in danger of becoming a What-If.

Thank you again for all your comments and pointers; I am very grateful..

Brian

Looking forward to your build. I've always had a fascination with the softskin vehicles of the 50's - 70's! It's the Army I "grew up in" as a kid. (As opposed to the Army I "grew up in" as an Officer!)