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16 questions about Panzer officer uniforms
Dioramartin
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Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 - 08:01 AM UTC
So you may have noticed I’m currently doing a thing on the Diorama forum, and after research I’m still very confused about Panzer officer uniforms – Heer, not SS, summer 1943. If you’re certain of the correct answers, here’s the quiz with my guesses for the two officers concerned, and I thank you in advance for your answers/corrections:

OBERST (Colonel):

1 – jacket: field grey?
2 – pants: grey?
3- pants stripe(s)??
4: Collar: black?
5: Collar flash: Silver? Pink piping?
6: Epaulettes: ??
7: Officer's Hat: Field grey with black band?
8: Officer's Hat: Pink piping?

MAJOR:

9 – jacket: field grey?
10 – pants: grey?
11- pants stripe(s)??
12: Collar: black?
13: Collar flash: Silver? Pink piping?
14: Epaulettes: ??
15: Officer's Hat: Field grey with black band?
16: Officer's Hat: Pink piping?

Cheers,

Tim
PzDave
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Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 - 10:54 AM UTC
There are many good books available and I have seen dome decent websites with great photos.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 - 12:49 PM UTC
In the service uniform it would be the same as any other officer but with pink waffenfarbe on hat, litzen and shoulder insignia. A colonel would probably have a tailored uniform and often the color would be grey rather than field grey. Collars were green in the heart, not black. In many photos it appears black but it is green.

Panzer uniform would be black and an officer would be more likely to have retained the pink piping on the collar. But again it's a standard black panzer uniform with silver insignia and the same rank insignia as used on the service tunic.

There are so many books out there now often with full color pictures of actual or recreated uniforms but I still cling to my ancient Squadron Tank crew uniforms book. And collecting assorted 1/6 stuff doesn't hurt.
jrutman
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Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 - 08:32 PM UTC
Depends if it the "fancy" more forml uniform or the field service variety. I would go with the field one for your purposes. The color of the piping was pointed out above. At that point in the war(43) you would be safe with field grey and trousers and dark green collar. No stripes on the pants unless you ant to make him a general staff officer. Shoulder straps would be woven for an Oberst and linear stripes with a pip for the Major.
HTH,
J
justjohn
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Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 - 09:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Depends if it the "fancy" more forml uniform or the field service variety. I would go with the field one for your purposes. The color of the piping was pointed out above. At that point in the war(43) you would be safe with field grey and trousers and dark green collar. No stripes on the pants unless you ant to make him a general staff officer. Shoulder straps would be woven for an Oberst and linear stripes with a pip for the Major.
HTH,
J


I don't want to hijack this thread, but I have a question for you Jerry. Can you recommend any reference books? I am always blown away by your work.
JPTRR
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RAILROAD MODELING
#051
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Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 - 09:55 PM UTC
I don't have much to add except that "it depends". Some officers were more attached to their uniform than troops and yet some wore uniforms almost straight off the quartermasters rack. Note the one at left.


While you aren't interested in SS for this diorama, I think of "Panzer" Meyer, who occasionally can be found in uniforms hardly distinguishable from the enlisted men.


P.S., these guys need a haircut.


jrutman
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Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 - 10:34 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Depends if it the "fancy" more forml uniform or the field service variety. I would go with the field one for your purposes. The color of the piping was pointed out above. At that point in the war(43) you would be safe with field grey and trousers and dark green collar. No stripes on the pants unless you ant to make him a general staff officer. Shoulder straps would be woven for an Oberst and linear stripes with a pip for the Major.
HTH,
J


I don't want to hijack this thread, but I have a question for you Jerry. Can you recommend any reference books? I am always blown away by your work.


Osprey make a nice inexpensive line of soft cover ref books concerning the German army in WWII.
J
jrutman
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Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 - 10:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Depends if it the "fancy" more forml uniform or the field service variety. I would go with the field one for your purposes. The color of the piping was pointed out above. At that point in the war(43) you would be safe with field grey and trousers and dark green collar. No stripes on the pants unless you ant to make him a general staff officer. Shoulder straps would be woven for an Oberst and linear stripes with a pip for the Major.
HTH,
J


I am assuming here that you are showing the regular uniform and not the "panzer wrap". I usually see the higher ranking officers in the Panzer Regt wearing the regular uniform but the black panzer wrap is also worn a lot. Yes,it would always be black with the pink shoulder board outline. The pink around the collar was discontinued after a short while though.Usually black trousers as well.
J
warmonger
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Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 - 10:38 PM UTC
We need more figures in the causual (combat) clothing. Most tanker uniforms look like formal uniforms almost.
Biggles2
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Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 - 10:47 PM UTC
2 sec Google search: https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1600&bih=791&q=ww2+german+panzer+uniforms&oq=german+panzer+uniforms&gs_l=img.1.1.0j0i5i30k1l2.6854.14494.0.19721.22.18.0.4.4.0.120.1592.13j5.18.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.22.1611...0i8i30k1.bi6cRRleRfQ
easyco69
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Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 - 11:35 PM UTC
doesn't Vallejo have paint kits marked for German uniforms etc???
But check out this thread..it's pretty kool!!!!
http://www.militarymodelling.com/forums/postings.asp?th=23796

Vallejo paint

video for painting German Panzer Uniform on an Alpine figure

This guy is an amazing figure painter, he is Japanese.
justjohn
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Posted: Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 12:56 AM UTC
Thank you.
Dioramartin
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Posted: Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 05:45 AM UTC
Many thanks for all replies gents,

Maybe I have a patience-deficiency but trawling the net was what compounded my confusion, as did my own collected references over past 20+ years. I should have clarified I was after field service versions, apologies. So Biggles2 in your 2- sec search – one of many I had looked through – it didn’t answer my questions.

All up I could not find – or trust – the detail I’m looking for which is why I came to the Oracle. Chances were that by setting it up for discussion there’d be a consensus and it looks like there has been. Besides, by following that consensus, if some smartass later on proves my dio’s wrong in the uniform department…I can blame y’all!

Kidding guys, I’ll take the rap if there is one. Thanks again, results will appear in the Merc type 170 Dio build maybe next weekend.

Cheers
Kevlar06
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Posted: Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 09:43 AM UTC
It's also assumed you are referring to Panzer Officer's uniforms in Europe or Russia too right? Because if you're talking about North Africa there's a whole different set of uniforms to address in different colors and materials.
VR, Russ
AgentG
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Posted: Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 10:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

It's also assumed you are referring to Panzer Officer's uniforms in Europe or Russia too right? Because if you're talking about North Africa there's a whole different set of uniforms to address in different colors and materials.
VR, Russ


Well he did say summer 1943, so North Africa is sort of a no go........................



G
Kevlar06
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Posted: Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 11:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

It's also assumed you are referring to Panzer Officer's uniforms in Europe or Russia too right? Because if you're talking about North Africa there's a whole different set of uniforms to address in different colors and materials.
VR, Russ


Well he did say summer 1943, so North Africa is sort of a no go........................



G


I missed the "summer" part-- but as I recall those "troppen" uniforms were still in use in Sicily and southern Italy in the summer of 1943. I used to have a Luftwaffe helmet in tropical colors captured in Sicily in 1943 anyway. I still regret selling it when I was in college along with the rest of my collection.
VR, Russ
Biggles2
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Posted: Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 09:24 PM UTC
I guess it would depend on whether you're talking about staff officers, or field officers. Staff officers could be dressed up to the nines - pressed uniform, polished boots, and every bit of regalia permitted of their rank. Field officers could be dressed more like their men, only cleaner, and higher rank insignias. In any case, being panzer officers, they typically all should have pink Waffenfarbe.
Check this link. Several pics of both staff and field officers. Ignore the Lego figures and cutsie action dolls! https://www.searchincognito.com/images?eq=TtAJFIzNAbyEaDwfDCno6CaGVIzhEi9SE%2BZ45EIdUcg%3D
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 11:44 PM UTC
I think the other guys have covered most of the details, but I have to ask, if you are specifically interested in Panzer officers why you want to depict them in Service Dress? Although the Black Panzer Uniform was originally only intended for actual tank crews on duty with the vehicles, it rapidly became more widely used, including for parades and for walking out, it's dramatic effect being especially popular with the ladies! Members of tank units other than tank crews and reserve tank crews were supposed to wear normal Service Dress, but it is unlikely that an Oberst(regimental commander)or Major (battalion commander)would fall into that bracket. As far as the Heer were concerned the only difference between officers and ORs was in the rank markings. All had the pink piping around collar and collar patches (the former was discontinued in 1942, but officers serving a year later would almost certainly retain it). Many officers continued to wear the uniform style cap with their black clothing, but this was usually the "crusher cap", officially the Officers Field Service Cap, Old Style, which was a "soft" version of the Service Dress cap without the rigid spring, a style popular with veterans.
If you want to stick with the Service Dress, there was also a piped version of the Service Dress popular with staff officers. This was of similar cut and style to the normal SD, but had the trouser welts, front flap of the jacket, collar edges and cuff turnbacks piped with waffenfarbe. It would not have been worn in the field, but for walking out and parades.
Dioramartin
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Posted: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 12:36 AM UTC
Thanks guys,

Steve – maybe the simplest answer to your initial question is to ask you to look at the specific figures I have in the “Mercedes Type 170 etc” thread in the Dio forum. The scene is that they’ve been driving say 15 kms behind the front line at Kursk in summer 1943, to/from a rear supply dump/maintenance area to/from the front line. The weather has been hot for some time & looking at references such as Restayn’s hefty “Citadel – North salient” it seems very few wore black, they’re mostly in the cooler reed green.

The car is a 9th Pz Div regimental HQ vehicle with 4 occupants:

Driver – let’s say he’s a dedicated driver ferrying officers around, not a tanker but still a member of the panzer division. Field grey uniform with pink piping?

Officer 1 - (in the back seat)I’m calling him a Colonel so is that uniform correct?

Officer 2 - I’m calling him a Major, is that a correct uniform? My figure has a dividing hem half way up his forearms…in my searches I noticed a uniform which had that area down to the sleeve in brown, denoting an NCO. Would an NCO Major be plausible?

4th figure – He’s in a shirt & I’m going with JTPRR’s photo above of a crew in green, let’s say a tank commander who’s been accompanying his superiors in the car. I’m confused about what if any decoration his shoulder-things had. In the photo I assume the guy on the left’s the commander & his seem to have pink piping? On a shirt?

Any help gratefully received
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 05:10 PM UTC
Ah, now I'm with you. I'm having to edit this post yet again! You have the car clearly marked as coming from a Panzer Regiment.
OK, so these Panzer guys have opted to wear their SD, maybe they have been to HQ for a medal presentation or something.
The Reed Green clothing worn by Panzer crew you refer to in your post were the Panzer denims, which were the same design as the Panzer clothing, but had a large patch pocket on the left chest, so nothing like normal service dress. However there was a lightweight version of SD, in design it is identical, but is distinguishable in photos by its more scuffy appearance, as it is more crumpled and doesn't retain creases well.
So, the Oberst in normal SD could be in pink waffenfarbe, the driver similar. However the Oberst similarly could be a General Staff officer,who wore crimson waffenfarbe, and they also had the General Officers type "lampassen" trouser stripes in that colour. Not sure what you are getting at with the major - major is a commissioned rank so not an NCO, since he is obviously wearing the officers SD with deep turnup to the cuffs. The brown cuffs you refer to are part of the police uniform, and although there were police battalions in Russia, they were not normally attached to Panzer Divisions (not to be confused with Feldgendarmerie or military police, these police units were recruited from the Ordnungspolizei or civilian police; their uniform was "police green" with brown cuffs, not field grey).
Finally shirt sleeve order - the Wehrmacht shirt was issued in all sorts of colours ranging from plain grey to a brownish colour. Some designs had shoulder straploops, permitting those being attached. The trousers would of course be field grey, unless he is wearing black panzer trousers.
Hope this isn't too confusing!
Dioramartin
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Posted: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 06:20 PM UTC
Many thanks Steve,

that's weird, you must have edited your post in between me drafting my reply & actually posting it?! So I'm editing mine too!

So I'm scrubbing my follow-up questions as I think you've answered them all. I didn't mention hats but I'm sure I can work that out from the charts now that you've helped me work out who they are!

Thanks again,I really appreciate you help

Cheers, Tim
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