England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 14, 2006
KitMaker: 157 posts
Armorama: 133 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 25, 2017 - 03:23 PM UTC
Hi Fellas.
Im making an m60a1 at the moment.I feel the Merdc camouflage looks appealing modelling wise.What id like to ask is was the pattern carried onto the lower hull and bogies or just plain say green?.Im also hoping to do a National guard m60 vanilla in w.Germany.Any pointers for good references regarding u.s markings from 80s-90s??.
Many thanks guys.
Richard
Germany
Joined: September 12, 2008
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 304 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 25, 2017 - 05:43 PM UTC
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: October 14, 2013
KitMaker: 318 posts
Armorama: 313 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 25, 2017 - 07:36 PM UTC
This site shows all the different MERDC variants for the M60.
https://www.cybermodeler.com/armor/m60/m60_all.shtmlEngland - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 14, 2006
KitMaker: 157 posts
Armorama: 133 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 25, 2017 - 10:11 PM UTC
Many thanks Rich and Andreas for the info regarding Merdc.Much appreciated fellas.
Richard
Texas, United States
Joined: December 29, 2007
KitMaker: 57 posts
Armorama: 53 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 01:35 AM UTC
Richard,
Although the templates showed the pattern being carried under/behind the running gear--I am not sure that very many were fully painted there. The road wheels were generally left a single color (either green or black).
Some vehicles coming from a depot may have had the full pattern applied- but if units had to paint I imagine they probably skipped that part. I think the Army did not press the standard as it saved paint (and hence $$s) in an area that got muddy and covered up the pattern anyway.
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 01:51 AM UTC
Field Artillery --- The KING of BATTLE!!!
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
Showcase
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 14, 2006
KitMaker: 157 posts
Armorama: 133 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 12:00 PM UTC
Hi fellas.
Thank you for your invaluable help much appreciated indeed.
Cheers from Richard
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: July 21, 2007
KitMaker: 521 posts
Armorama: 514 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 02:24 PM UTC
Hi there,
aren't the first and last Pictures more likely the MASSTER type? Please excuse my ignorance, but I'm asking out of pure curiosity and a newbe to the Topic eager to learn...
Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Joined: October 31, 2006
KitMaker: 649 posts
Armorama: 609 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 02:52 PM UTC
Hi Marian,
No, the first and the third picture are painted in the so-called gray-desert MERDC. Please see this link:
https://sites.google.com/site/merdccamo/home/merdc-photos-1Gé
Rommel !! You magnificient bastard !!
I've read your book !!!!
G.Patton
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: July 21, 2007
KitMaker: 521 posts
Armorama: 514 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 03:22 PM UTC
Okay, thanks for the clarification
So MASSTER and MERDC are slighty reaching out to shake hands (metaphorically speaking) somewhere in between? As far as I remember MASSTER was before MERDC and more a kind of experimental camo on the search for newer/better camo schemes which resulted in MERDC eventually? Or am I on the totally wrong track here?
Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Joined: October 31, 2006
KitMaker: 649 posts
Armorama: 609 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 04:19 PM UTC
Hi,
Masster was also known as the 7th Army camouflage because it was used by the 7th Army in Germany.
See this link and you'll see the difference:
https://sites.google.com/site/merdccamo/home/7tharmyOn the mainpage you'll find many links to examples and pictures of different vehicles in different MERDC schemes.
https://sites.google.com/site/merdccamo/homeGé
Rommel !! You magnificient bastard !!
I've read your book !!!!
G.Patton
Kentucky, United States
Joined: September 26, 2007
KitMaker: 162 posts
Armorama: 116 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 05:50 PM UTC
Let me just add about painting the lower hull and road wheels of the M60 tanks. During the summer of 1979 we applied new paint on our M60A1 tanks in H (Tank)Company, 2nd Squadron, 11th ACR. We discussed painting the lower hull and road wheels as they would just get muddy and dirty and any camouflage would be covered up. In the end we did not paint the lower hull, but did paint the road wheels (brown and green).
Sometimes it is a unit decision to paint or not to paint.
Washington, United States
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 08:17 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Let me just add about painting the lower hull and road wheels of the M60 tanks. During the summer of 1979 we applied new paint on our M60A1 tanks in H (Tank)Company, 2nd Squadron, 11th ACR. We discussed painting the lower hull and road wheels as they would just get muddy and dirty and any camouflage would be covered up. In the end we did not paint the lower hull, but did paint the road wheels (brown and green).
Sometimes it is a unit decision to paint or not to paint.
...Well, my experience from the same unit (H 2/11 ACR) two years earlier is the exact opposite, as we painted the lower hulls and road wheels, but that was 1977, under a different CO. So it really depends not just on the unit, but on the timeframe too. By '79, I'd transitioned over to F Troop, were we painted the lower hulls and road wheels on the M551 where we could reach them-- not so much behind but over the wheels and ends of the hull. Re-painting was done in the motor pool, when the tank was clean, and we cleaned them every time we came in from the field-- nothing ever got put away dirty, it was SOP. I might add that rebuild or new tanks "usually" came from the depot in green-- and we'd just hit them with the paint where we could reach, not in every nook and cranny.
VR, Russ
Ontario, Canada
Joined: September 19, 2010
KitMaker: 194 posts
Armorama: 148 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 09:40 PM UTC
Sorry for going slightly off-topic, but would it have been pretty much the same with M-113 types? Especially with the track shrouds fitted?
Thanks in advance
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 09:54 PM UTC
Field Artillery --- The KING of BATTLE!!!
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
Showcase
Ontario, Canada
Joined: September 19, 2010
KitMaker: 194 posts
Armorama: 148 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 09:59 PM UTC
Thanks Gino!
Washington, United States
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 11:40 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Sorry for going slightly off-topic, but would it have been pretty much the same with M-113 types? Especially with the track shrouds fitted?
Thanks in advance
Nope-- the road wheels would certainly have been painted different colors as Gino has pointed out, but not behind the track shrouds, as those rarely if ever would have been removed in Europe (they are necessary for flotation). The only time I saw them off was when we changed a road wheel. Track shrouds themselves were very thick vulcanized rubber-fabric material, and would not have been intentionally painted (overspray maybe) where I was anyway in the CAV. The Sheridan had a pretty small clearance between the hull and top of the track-- we might squirt some paint in the clearance, but that was it. M60A1s had almost three feet of clearance between the bottom of the track run on top, and the area of the hull just above where the torsion bar came out-- that's quite a bit of space. Remember, in the field and units, painting was not an exact science-- sometimes we followed the appropriate guides, other times we'd just paint over the old camouflage colors. We used axle grease from a #5 can to mask IR surfaces, tailights, headlights and grease fittings or inspection ports, because there was never enough masking material (usually saved for optics in combination with newspaper). For touch up we used a household paintbrush or a spray can. Some things were not supposed to be painted --I.e.; plasticized canvass covers or searchlights-- antenna bases, rubber lines and hoses, etc (although occasionally someone would do it.
VR, Russ
Kansas, United States
Joined: December 25, 2012
KitMaker: 441 posts
Armorama: 441 posts
Posted: Monday, February 27, 2017 - 03:51 AM UTC
Us modelers worry more about the accuracy of these paint jobs than the average joe did with a paint gun!
I know the Tech Manuals even have some specs with exact measurements, but in reality I've seen all sorts of sloppy/creative paint jobs.
Even with the new NATO'flage... tri-color CARC paint, the touch up is pretty sloppy. I'm out at Ft Riley w the the 1 ID, 2nd Armored Brigade and the rivet counting model builders would have a fit if their models looked half as messy as some of the real things out here!
I can believe talking scarecrows and wizards in great emerald cities, but I refuse to believe there is no paperwork involved when your house lands on a witch.
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: September 30, 2015
KitMaker: 2,493 posts
Armorama: 2,344 posts
Posted: Monday, February 27, 2017 - 04:52 AM UTC
Bruce, I'm agree with the abundant differences in equipment. When I worked at Ft. Sill with 6/32 FA I seen so so much different things. Extremly faded three tone, extremely chipped three tone, rattle can touch ups. Almost limitless on the possibilities.
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
#503
Texas, United States
Joined: June 29, 2006
KitMaker: 147 posts
Armorama: 138 posts
Posted: Monday, February 27, 2017 - 05:48 AM UTC
Ain't that the truth! Same kind of fellows who seem to know everything that there is to know about combat...but have yet to leave the front yard.
Allen
#503
Texas, United States
Joined: June 29, 2006
KitMaker: 147 posts
Armorama: 138 posts
Posted: Monday, February 27, 2017 - 06:08 AM UTC
Hello Russ and Duane,
This brings up some memories. In the (then) FRG, we used the paint guns to paint the two major colors and brushes for the black. Our battalion commander did not allow the sand color to be used.
Our tracks rarely had the skirts mounted. We did not paint the rubber portions of them.
Our M60 was selected for a parade one year. It was in the summer green colors. What started out as a fairly nice trip to the wash rack turned into a complete painting party. We masked the interior and sprayed all the white parts with gloss white. In order to make the colors a little more bold, we painted the turret, main gun, glacis and engine deck by brush. The spray gun was great for just about everything else...especially the interior end connectors.
The fumes were so strong on the interior that it was no fun to drive for a while. Then, none of us wanted to take the poor thing out into the field...she was just to pretty for that!
Respectfully,
Allen
Michigan, United States
Joined: September 10, 2004
KitMaker: 1,610 posts
Armorama: 684 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 12:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Okay, thanks for the clarification
So MASSTER and MERDC are slighty reaching out to shake hands (metaphorically speaking) somewhere in between? As far as I remember MASSTER was before MERDC and more a kind of experimental camo on the search for newer/better camo schemes which resulted in MERDC eventually? Or am I on the totally wrong track here?
As pointed out, what is usually referred to as the "MASSTER" scheme should more correctly be known as the USAREUR/7th Army scheme, as it was developed by USAREUR, and as far as regulation usage, was only used but units in USAREUR/7th Army. It was introduced in about July of 1973, at which time it was applied, generally by troops in the motor pool, over the standard OD overall scheme which had been around for a long time. It was replaced by the MERDC scheme, Army wide (not just in Europe) sometime after about 1977 or so.
And once again, if anybody can get me a copy of the actual USAREUR Regulation from 1973 which implemented this scheme in the first place, I would greatly appreciate. I have been unable to locate any copies of this Reg despite numerous inquires to various HQ, and historical archive locations.
United States
Joined: February 19, 2009
KitMaker: 1,139 posts
Armorama: 1,100 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 01:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Fellas.
Im making an m60a1 at the moment.I feel the Merdc camouflage looks appealing modelling wise.What id like to ask is was the pattern carried onto the lower hull and bogies or just plain say green?.Im also hoping to do a National guard m60 vanilla in w.Germany.Any pointers for good references regarding u.s markings from 80s-90s??.
Many thanks guys.
Richard
The plain vanilla M60 was no longer in service in the time period you are talking about the only varients of the M60 that were in service in the 80's and 90's were M60A1 and the M60A3 was the and the last M60A3 that were retired in the early 90's were in 3 color NATO
camouflage
#503
Texas, United States
Joined: June 29, 2006
KitMaker: 147 posts
Armorama: 138 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 08:23 AM UTC
Hello Nick,
I don't know if you are differentiating between active duty and National Guard armor, but, both the 49th AD and 163d ACR were using the M60 through 1985 and perhaps later. These were in a variety of MERDC colors.
Respectfully,
Allen
United States
Joined: February 19, 2009
KitMaker: 1,139 posts
Armorama: 1,100 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 11:14 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hello Nick,
I don't know if you are differentiating between active duty and National Guard armor, but, both the 49th AD and 163d ACR were using the M60 through 1985 and perhaps later. These were in a variety of MERDC colors.
Respectfully,
Allen
Oh ok i always thought the M60A0 as some people called it was long out of service by the middle 70's thanks for the update
