Hi all,
Can you give me any historical (photos would be nice, too) reference information about this M4 Sherman Improvised “Assault Tank” as modeled by Panzerart? http://panzerart.pl/index.php/welcome/produkt/93
My Google search was unsuccessful..
Who used it; when was it used; and how was it used?
Thank you in advance.
James
Hosted by Darren Baker
M4 Sherman Improvised “Assault Tank”?
Petition2God
Joined: February 06, 2002
KitMaker: 1,526 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 - 10:53 PM UTC
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 - 11:11 PM UTC
Google "improvised Jumbo" That's what they were commonly referred to.
27-1025
Joined: September 16, 2004
KitMaker: 1,281 posts
Armorama: 1,222 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 - 11:15 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi all,
Can you give me any historical (photos would be nice, too) reference information about this M4 Sherman Improvised “Assault Tank” as modeled by Panzerart? http://panzerart.pl/index.php/welcome/produkt/93
My Google search was unsuccessful..
Who used it; when was it used; and how was it used?
Thank you in advance.
James
New to me but like it a lot. Think I'll be ordering this too ASAP.
Petition2God
Joined: February 06, 2002
KitMaker: 1,526 posts
Armorama: 1,294 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 12:28 AM UTC
Quoted Text
New to me but like it a lot. Think I'll be ordering this too ASAP.
Got mine from Ebay seller in Poland but LOM has it with 10% off coupon: https://www.lots-of-models.com/products/panzer-art-1-35-m4-improvised-assault-tank-resin-detail-update-re35-085
Das_Abteilung
Joined: August 31, 2010
KitMaker: 365 posts
Armorama: 351 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 12:51 AM UTC
Here's a front view of the same vehicle posted above: http://www.mairie-montry.fr/iso_album/blindes_11.jpg.
Note how the turret cheek applique curves - very hard to do in the field. I reckon these are pieces of another Sherman turret cut up and welded on. Also applique plate on turret roof above mantlet. The glacis applique is fairly conventional.
This subject has come up half a dozen times on various forums since Panzer Art first released this kit in about 2010, with no clear conclusions. I think Panzer Art might have caused the problem with their description. Had they just called it "improvised applique armour" I think we would have been more satisfied. It's no secret that there were very many improvised applique armour ideas applied to Shermans.
I've had a skim through Hunnicutt and he doesn't mention "improvised Jumbos" or anything similar.
Note how the turret cheek applique curves - very hard to do in the field. I reckon these are pieces of another Sherman turret cut up and welded on. Also applique plate on turret roof above mantlet. The glacis applique is fairly conventional.
This subject has come up half a dozen times on various forums since Panzer Art first released this kit in about 2010, with no clear conclusions. I think Panzer Art might have caused the problem with their description. Had they just called it "improvised applique armour" I think we would have been more satisfied. It's no secret that there were very many improvised applique armour ideas applied to Shermans.
I've had a skim through Hunnicutt and he doesn't mention "improvised Jumbos" or anything similar.
woodstock74
Joined: December 28, 2002
KitMaker: 1,189 posts
Armorama: 692 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 01:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Here's a front view of the same vehicle posted above: http://www.mairie-montry.fr/iso_album/blindes_11.jpg.
Note how the turret cheek applique curves - very hard to do in the field. I reckon these are pieces of another Sherman turret cut up and welded on. Also applique plate on turret roof above mantlet. The glacis applique is fairly conventional.
This subject has come up half a dozen times on various forums since Panzer Art first released this kit in about 2010, with no clear conclusions. I think Panzer Art might have caused the problem with their description. Had they just called it "improvised applique armour" I think we would have been more satisfied. It's no secret that there were very many improvised applique armour ideas applied to Shermans.
I've had a skim through Hunnicutt and he doesn't mention "improvised Jumbos" or anything similar.
That IS one of the more aggressively modified Shermans. It does indeed appear that they split a donor turret in half and scabbed on each turret side onto the new turret clam-shell like. Also appears to be a piece in the middle stitching the two add-on halves together.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 03:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I've had a skim through Hunnicutt and he doesn't mention "improvised Jumbos" or anything similar.
He really doesn't go into field expedients or the update kits that were made to uparmor tanks to make expedient jumbos. He does mention there weren't enough Jumbos to go around but not how the troops cut up other tanks to uparmor tanks for expedient point tanks. A lot of wartime stuff done on the tanks is missing from that book or just mentioned in passing.
A couple of Zaloga's Sherman books go over it though. One of Abrams' Thnderbolts had the armor kit on it. Workshops cut up tanks and made the modifications. There was supposedly an uparmor kit to make a expedient jumbo just like there were update kits for add new features to older tanks.
Dragon did a kit of one expedient jumbo for their first M4A3E8 kit back in the day. There are pictures of Shermans with cut up chunks of German tanks on the glacis as well as the "Super Pershing" having the extra armor added.
Never underestimate the ingenuity of the American fighting man.
Like they said in Vietnam "We have done so much, for so long, with so little; we are now capable of doing anything with nothing."
Das_Abteilung
Joined: August 31, 2010
KitMaker: 365 posts
Armorama: 351 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 05:34 AM UTC
That's the photo. I couldn't work out how to post it. Agreed, one of the Hunnicut weaknesses is that he doesn't really cover field mods other than official ones: but it was worth a look. I couldn't find anything else in my limited library. I've not seen inside the Son of Sherman book - and at £430 second-hand on Amazon I'm never likely to - but I believe it covers field mods and expedients in more detail. It is supposed to be the new definitive M4 reference.
Belt_Fed
Joined: February 02, 2008
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,325 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 05:51 AM UTC
It was fairly common to see applique armor on Shermans towards the end of the year, whether it be with sandbags, concrete, or armor plates salvaged from knocked out vehicles.
ericadeane
Joined: October 28, 2002
KitMaker: 4,021 posts
Armorama: 3,947 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 05:28 PM UTC
Das abteiling, go to wwww.bookfinder.com. Much more reasonably priced copies of Son of Sherman there
27-1025
Joined: September 16, 2004
KitMaker: 1,281 posts
Armorama: 1,222 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 05:51 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Das abteiling, go to wwww.bookfinder.com. Much more reasonably priced copies of Son of Sherman there
Some of the prices being asked for that book are breathtaking. Glad I got mine for retail
Totalize
Joined: February 04, 2009
KitMaker: 743 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 08:21 PM UTC
You asked about the unit and while I can't be sure specifically about this tank, the U.S. 3rd Armored Division did do a number of field improvisations of their Shermans late in the War by adding Applique armour to the turrets of their tanks from destroyed Shermans and possibly German tanks as well. I did a 3rd Armor Division M4A3 Sherman a few years back that fought in Cologne and I added some Applique armor from an Old Tamiya Sherman kit I had. My Sherman was not the assault version above.
Petition2God
Joined: February 06, 2002
KitMaker: 1,526 posts
Armorama: 1,294 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 09:53 PM UTC
Thank you all! Some very interesting discussion here!
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