Was wondering how many powder bags you guys would keep out in the open when firing?
The pieces I will be using are the 203 MM and the 175 MM in Nam.
And did they come in wood crates or just tubes, any pics of them as to size?
Thanks again
Jeff
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Powder bags , how many kept out?
sgtreef
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Posted: Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 02:31 PM UTC
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 03:51 PM UTC
So . . . How come I can see the title/header but don't see any posts?
KL
KL
CMOT
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Posted: Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 04:21 PM UTC
If you don't see any posts it would indicate that you have possibly blocked the poster. I do not know of any other reason.
Frenchy
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Posted: Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 04:30 PM UTC
I guess Gino should have some answers for you 
, anyway here's a M110 epmlacement in Vietnam. The propelling charge canisters are in the foreground :
Full size
M2 8" Propelling charge canister :
M2 Propelling charge ("white bag" charge) :
H.P.
, anyway here's a M110 epmlacement in Vietnam. The propelling charge canisters are in the foreground :Full size
M2 8" Propelling charge canister :
M2 Propelling charge ("white bag" charge) :
H.P.
sgtreef
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Posted: Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 05:05 PM UTC
Thanks again.
Boy that stuff way out in the open.
Boy that stuff way out in the open.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 09:01 PM UTC
Quoted Text
If you don't see any posts it would indicate that you have possibly blocked the poster. I do not know of any other reason.
Hmm, I have never intentionally blocked anyone . . . Where is the list kept of who the system THINKS I have blocked?
KL
27-1025
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Posted: Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 09:08 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Was wondering how many powder bags you guys would keep out in the open when firing?
The pieces I will be using are the 203 MM and the 175 MM in Nam.
And did they come in wood crates or just tubes, any pics of them as to size?
Thanks again
Jeff
The bags are only removed from the container when firing a mission. Any leftovers are segregated and burned in a pit.
ArtyG37B
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Posted: Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 09:37 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Was wondering how many powder bags you guys would keep out in the open when firing?
The pieces I will be using are the 203 MM and the 175 MM in Nam.
And did they come in wood crates or just tubes, any pics of them as to size?
Thanks again
Jeff
When I was on M109s we kept the charge bags in their canisters till we got a fire mission, we never knew whether it would be white bag or green bag. once we got the ammo order we would open up 6.
bkkinman
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Posted: Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 09:43 PM UTC
it depends on the firing solution- the charge type (White bag or Green Bag) then a number of charges 5,6 7 etc. So in famous words--It depends---. But each mission may have a different charge- so having a variety of leftover bags would be accurate.
HTH
Bret
HTH
Bret
Paulinsibculo
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Posted: Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 10:02 PM UTC
The 'left-overs' are treated carefully, also in other, non-US, artillery units. Though rather unlikely they are goods with a fire risk and therefore collected in a steel box out of the gun itself.
In Dutch units these bags were collected by specialists in order to be destroyed in controlled conditions.
Furthermore, grenades may have been outside their transport packages, the propellant was kept in the original boxes until it was know which type and how many was needed for the shot.
In Dutch units these bags were collected by specialists in order to be destroyed in controlled conditions.
Furthermore, grenades may have been outside their transport packages, the propellant was kept in the original boxes until it was know which type and how many was needed for the shot.
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 - 01:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Was wondering how many powder bags you guys would keep out in the open when firing?
The pieces I will be using are the 203 MM and the 175 MM in Nam.
And did they come in wood crates or just tubes, any pics of them as to size?
Thanks again
Jeff
key here is M110/M107 platform. These guns rarely if ever shot zone sweeps due to their slow rate of fire. The M107 doesn't shoot powder charges as we think of it, but what was known as "zones one, two, and three". The 8" shoots charges, and if memory is right they only shoot white bag powder. (I can't remember shooting any green bag powder). So lets say an FO calls in a fire mission, and states he plans on shooting three rounds of HE. Then your going to see three powder charges out by the crane. If he calls for nine, then you'll see nine charges of powder. Now I might add here that the powder charges will vary per mission and how the parabolic equation figures out. Similar for the M107, but remember the powder charge is 5'7" long and about a foot in diameter. This one is handed up to the loader very gently. Never loaded via the hydraulic rammer!
By the way the photo shows a unit just getting setup on an OP. Way to tell is that not every SPG is setup to shoot and you also see the auto collimator on the tripod. Normally the guns are laid in a lazy W formation. This has everything to do with the impact zone. Also that's probably the "base piece" in the photo.
gary
Knuckles
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 - 01:53 AM UTC
They shoot five and a half FEET of powder?
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 - 01:56 AM UTC
Quoted Text
it depends on the firing solution- the charge type (White bag or Green Bag) then a number of charges 5,6 7 etc. So in famous words--It depends---. But each mission may have a different charge- so having a variety of leftover bags would be accurate.
HTH
Bret
in Vietnam, the max charge was always the goto charge. never exactly knew why, and I spent an agonizing six weeks in the FDC section. On a typical towed 155 unit you shot four white bag charges for every single green bag charge. I've shot white at 3000 yards and out to 14,000 yards. Yet I've shot green bag from 100 feet to 3000 yards.
By the way, you never burn left over powder in a pit or even a barrel. You lay it out flat on the ground, and cut open one bag to leave a trail about one inch wide and twenty feet long. Then take a long drag on a cigarette and lay it on the one inch line. Then get outta there as the heat is unreal.
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 - 02:00 AM UTC
Quoted Text
They shoot five and a half FEET of powder?
a 175 gun (it is known as a gun or a rifle)shoots a 147 lb. round with a zone 3 three charge being five feet seven inches long. A condition we call "overbore." I was trained extensively on M107's, and was supposed to have been in a unit right outside of the "Rockpile."
gary
Knuckles
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 - 02:04 AM UTC
Frenchy
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 - 02:06 AM UTC
175 mm Propelling charge canisters (most are packed in wooden wrap) :
and here you can see the Propelling charge "white bag" (at least I think that's what is is ) laying on the M107 folding crew seat :
H.P.
and here you can see the Propelling charge "white bag" (at least I think that's what is is
) laying on the M107 folding crew seat : H.P.
berwickj
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 - 02:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
By the way, you never burn left over powder in a pit or even a barrel. You lay it out flat on the ground, and cut open one bag to leave a trail about one inch wide and twenty feet long. Then take a long drag on a cigarette and lay it on the one inch line. Then get outta there as the heat is unreal.
gary
Did the same thing on towed 105s in the RCA.
John
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 - 04:43 AM UTC
As the others have said, the actual powder charge is left inside the metal canister until it is needed for a fire mission due to safety concerns. The powder can be accidentally ignited and it burns very hot and very quickly. I have seen an entire M109A6 howitzer burn down to a pile of molten aluminum due to a powder fire. The breech was prematurely opened after a misfire and the powder caught fire, then set the other powder bag that was improperly taken out of its canister as well. Not pretty.
sgtreef
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 - 04:58 AM UTC
I am sure learning a lot here.
So how do you pack that bag up in there?
Jeff
So how do you pack that bag up in there?
Jeff
HeavyArty
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 - 05:10 AM UTC
The bag is actually a long tube, slightly less in diameter than the breech. It slides into the breech and the ignighter side has a red pad so you put it in the correct way (red to the rear - "I see red" in the open breech). The ingighter end has a section of slower burning powder that is lit by a primer in the breech block that is fired like a shotgun shell, lighting the main powder charge.
Green bag and white bag for 155mm howitzers.
You untie the side straps and reduce the higher numbered charges for lesser ranges.
Green bag and white bag for 155mm howitzers.
You untie the side straps and reduce the higher numbered charges for lesser ranges.
sgtreef
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 - 05:16 AM UTC
Way cool that is and thanks Gino.
Jeff
Jeff
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 - 09:24 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The bag is actually a long tube, slightly less in diameter than the breech. It slides into the breech and the ignighter side has a red pad so you put it in the correct way (red to the rear - "I see red" in the open breech). The ingighter end has a section of slower burning powder that is lit by a primer in the breech block that is fired like a shotgun shell, lighting the main powder charge.
Green bag and white bag for 155mm howitzers.
You untie the side straps and reduce the higher numbered charges for lesser ranges.
we never untied the powder charges to make a cut charge. We simply pulled out the unused charges and tucked the straps inward to hold everything in place. Sounds complicated, but in the end is simple.
One thing I always did, was to "prep" the powder canisters upon arrival. The star knob at the end came safety wired, and was packed in a vacuum. I cut the wire and opened the canister, then put the end cap back in place with just enough pressure to hold it tight. I've seen them so tight, that we had to use a hammer to break them loose. There is always one canister loaded with powder that is never used. We marked it with yellow paint. It was the one that had the thermometer inside it. (critical)
The red igniter pad is very dangerous. We had a couple culled powder charges that had to be burnt. The guy ignited the red pad, and spent a month in Japan with some nasty burns.
Also note that inside a powder bunker (HE projos as well)) there will be an isolated group of powder canisters that will contain about 100 charges (maybe 70). This are a select lot number that is known as a contact powder lot (or projo). This is what you use when shooting close to the good guys. These two powder lot numbers are the same for everybody in the unit. When one gun gets down to about thirty shots; they start hunting another select lot right away. They don't hunt this new lot in the field, but in the rear. You need at least 1000 rounds. I went thru three contact lots of powder in less than two weeks in the spring of 68.
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 - 09:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Way cool that is and thanks Gino.
Jeff
you've not had fun till you get to shoot a charge one green bag with less than two seconds on a 565 time fuse over HE or WP. I shot a second over WP down by Quang Nghai. A serious attention getter.
gary
thathaway3
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 - 08:06 PM UTC
Quoted Text
in Vietnam, the max charge was always the goto charge. never exactly knew why, and I spent an agonizing six weeks in the FDC section. On a typical towed 155 unit you shot four white bag charges for every single green bag charge. I've shot white at 3000 yards and out to 14,000 yards. Yet I've shot green bag from 100 feet to 3000 yards.
As a former Fire Direction Officer (FDO) who ran an FDC in Germany for a year I can answer that question. There are two reasons you want to use the HIGHEST charge possible when calculating firing data.
For any given range to the target there are usually two or more possible charges (or number of powder bag increments) which will reach the target so you CAN select any of them.
However the more increments you use, the higher the muzzle velocity of the round when you fire it and while it would seem that the answer is that it gets the round there FASTER, and that's true, the difference is not more than a few seconds.
The primary reason for using a higher charge is that because of the faster muzzle velocity, the round will not drop as far during the (shorter) time it takes to get there, meaning instead of having to point the muzzle higher in the air, you can shoot with a flatter trajectory. The faster and lower trajectory makes it MARGINALLY more difficult for a counter fire radar to detect your position, although I'm certain that the technology of today makes even that less of an issue.
A flatter trajectory is also better if you have to use a MECHANICAL time fuze and you're looking to get a 50 meter height of burst. If the round is coming at the target in more of a "down" angle as opposed to an "across" angle, a very small difference in the time setting can make a big difference in the height of burst. Variable or Proximity fuzes don't have that problem.
And the OTHER reason for using a higher charge is simply fewer left over bags which are hanging around in the pit and have to be laid out and burned.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 - 09:55 PM UTC
Quoted Text
.
As a former Fire Direction Officer (FDO) who ran an FDC in Germany for a year I can answer that question. There are two reasons you want to use the HIGHEST charge possible when calculating firing data . . .
Was there any consideration for the faster barrel wear (from using higher charges) when choosing the firing data?
KL
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