England - North West, United Kingdom
Joined: April 20, 2004
KitMaker: 2,439 posts
Armorama: 1,980 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 12:43 PM UTC
Been doing some research on my up and coming Panzer IV ausf E build,I won't to build #11 of the 11th Panzer division and found a couple of photos of #11 but they look some what different.
First picture shows missing antenna deflector,slightly larger balkenkreuz,missing jack block and different spare track layout.
Are these pictures the same vehicle at different times or two completely different tanks with the same number?
Cheers
Karl
Never in the field of scale modelling was so much owed by so many to so few.
Connecticut, United States
Joined: April 02, 2005
KitMaker: 3,608 posts
Armorama: 3,092 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 12:59 PM UTC
These are two different tanks. Check out the difference in the hull machine gun and the main gun barrel shroud.
Best,
Matt
SSG, INF, USA (Ret.)
"I am waiting for the tanks, and the Americans."
General Philippe Petain, September 1917
New Jersey, United States
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 01:30 PM UTC
Staring at the pictures I'm not convinced it's two different vehicles. All the major differences are missing gear that could have lost in combat or training. Even the glacis add-on armor is missing.
But I am positive that at least two of the crewmen are the same, except one now has noticeably longer hair...
"The only thing a man should take seriously is the fact that nothing should be taken seriously."
Samuel Butler, Victorian satirist
Steve Willoughby
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 04:11 PM UTC
FYI the second picture has been taken in April 1941 during "Operation 25" in Yugoslavia.
H.P.
"Find the Bastards, then Pile On"
Col. George W.Patton III 's standing order for the troopers of the 11th Armoured Cavalry Regiment
Washington, United States
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 08:49 PM UTC
Not seeing the pictures on either my pc or tablet.
Nevada, United States
Joined: December 21, 2008
KitMaker: 1,109 posts
Armorama: 1,095 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 08:57 PM UTC
Lasci la pistola. Porti le cannoli.
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 10:19 PM UTC
Here's picture #2 :
H.P.
"Find the Bastards, then Pile On"
Col. George W.Patton III 's standing order for the troopers of the 11th Armoured Cavalry Regiment
England - North West, United Kingdom
Joined: April 20, 2004
KitMaker: 2,439 posts
Armorama: 1,980 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 10:46 PM UTC
Can no one see the pictures?
Never in the field of scale modelling was so much owed by so many to so few.
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: November 19, 2008
KitMaker: 2,249 posts
Armorama: 2,007 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 11:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Can no one see the pictures?
It shows a broken link, but if you copy and paste the url into a browser it asks for a Google account log in.
North Carolina, United States
Joined: February 19, 2016
KitMaker: 10 posts
Armorama: 10 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 11:07 PM UTC
I only see a round grey circle with a white minus sign in the middle. Frenchy's image shows.
England - North West, United Kingdom
Joined: April 20, 2004
KitMaker: 2,439 posts
Armorama: 1,980 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 11:34 PM UTC
Don't know what's happened might be Google photos that I uploaded them on.
Should work now.
Never in the field of scale modelling was so much owed by so many to so few.
Victoria, Australia
Joined: August 06, 2011
KitMaker: 1,314 posts
Armorama: 1,217 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 12:20 AM UTC
I agree two different vehicles, note that the Balkan cross are also a different size/ thickness, plus there is no jack block in the 2nd pic
On the work bench: To many started & nothing finished!!
T55 ( Libyan)
S-Boat
BRDM 2 (Syrian)
BM21-Grad (Iraqi)
Victoria, Australia
Joined: August 06, 2011
KitMaker: 1,314 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 12:22 AM UTC
Sorry no jack block in the 1st pic
On the work bench: To many started & nothing finished!!
T55 ( Libyan)
S-Boat
BRDM 2 (Syrian)
BM21-Grad (Iraqi)
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 09, 2015
KitMaker: 1,063 posts
Armorama: 1,000 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 12:36 AM UTC
Same divisional markings but if you look under the upper hull lifting hook the unit insignia is different. In Frenchy's picture it looks like a circle with the numeral 1 inside. In PanzerKarl's upper picture it look rectangular or square. The picture is blurry but it is not a circle.
"No plan survives contact with the enemy." Helmuth von Moltke the Elder
Arizona, United States
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 1,808 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 01:29 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Don't know what's happened might be Google photos that I uploaded them on.
Should work now.
The top picture shows a tank after some heavy use, missing fenders etc. The most obvious difference is this one lacks applique armor in front of the driver.
Bottom picture, tank is in much better shape and has applique in front of the driver.
I would say different tank at different times. Possibly with the same number, 11.
I found a nifty feature on the forums called HIDE USER.
I was going to try it on myself and go stealth, but it only works on other users.
New Jersey, United States
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 05:01 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Same divisional markings but if you look under the upper hull lifting hook the unit insignia is different. In Frenchy's picture it looks like a circle with the numeral 1 inside. In PanzerKarl's upper picture it look rectangular or square. The picture is blurry but it is not a circle.
It just looks like It was scratched out. That's not reason enough to assume two different tanks. They often did remove the official divisional insignia for security purposes and that is what it looks like here not a different insignia.
And I still should point out how similar two of the crew look between the pictures. Same noses and cheek structure and the driver's sweater looks very similar to identical too.
"The only thing a man should take seriously is the fact that nothing should be taken seriously."
Samuel Butler, Victorian satirist
Steve Willoughby
Arizona, United States
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 1,808 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 06:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
Don't know what's happened might be Google photos that I uploaded them on.
Should work now.
The top picture shows a tank after some heavy use, missing fenders etc. The most obvious difference is this one lacks applique armor in front of the driver.
Bottom picture, tank is in much better shape and has applique in front of the driver.
I would say different tank at different times. Possibly with the same number, 11.
Second look, the beat up tank has applique, but not on the hull front. The mount for the plate in front of the bow mg is there, and it is possible the hull front plates were lost in combat. I agree with Stephen, the front marking has been removed. Maybe painted over.
Same tank at different times, before an after combat.
I found a nifty feature on the forums called HIDE USER.
I was going to try it on myself and go stealth, but it only works on other users.
Georgia, United States
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
Armorama: 1,860 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 09:09 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Same tank at different times, before an after combat.
I'm inclined to agree it is the same tank at different times. Missing gear like jacks and wooden blocks don't ID a vehicle, as there are many reasons why they might not be in the pic.
On the Campaign Trail:
Tank Destroyer 2020
South Carolina, United States
Joined: December 14, 2006
KitMaker: 1,355 posts
Armorama: 979 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 09:14 AM UTC
Could this be the same tank (picture found at
this website 
Zoom in and it looks like a "11" on the turret and the small circle logo on the upper hull side near the front next to the lifting hook.
ESSAYONS!
"Man does not live until he looks to the future, and that is his salvation in the worst of times.".... (Author Unknown)
AMPS #2102
Georgia, United States
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
Armorama: 1,860 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 10:02 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Could this be the same tank (picture found at this website
Zoom in and it looks like a "11" on the turret and the small circle logo on the upper hull side near the front next to the lifting hook.
Winner winner chicken dinner!
On the Campaign Trail:
Tank Destroyer 2020
England - North West, United Kingdom
Joined: April 20, 2004
KitMaker: 2,439 posts
Armorama: 1,980 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 11:39 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Could this be the same tank (picture found at this website
Zoom in and it looks like a "11" on the turret and the small circle logo on the upper hull side near the front next to the lifting hook.
You sir are a gentleman and a scholar
I have been looking for days for more photographic evidence of this vehicle.
I was unsure but now I am convinced it's the same vehicle different time.
Does anyone know why it was missing it's rear stowage bin?
Thanks for all your help I can crack on now making some improvements to the Dragon kit.
Have a good day
Karl
Never in the field of scale modelling was so much owed by so many to so few.
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 04:47 PM UTC
I know it won't help you at all
but I think the tank pictured in this picture :
could be the very same one in
second position in this picture :
judging by the two houses in the background and by the respective attitudes of the crew on the tank....
H.P.
"Find the Bastards, then Pile On"
Col. George W.Patton III 's standing order for the troopers of the 11th Armoured Cavalry Regiment
England - North West, United Kingdom
Joined: April 20, 2004
KitMaker: 2,439 posts
Armorama: 1,980 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 05:18 PM UTC
Yes most defiantly the second vehicle is #11.
Not sure if it's just me but I always like to find pictures of the tank that I want to build gives me some idea of what is on the vehicle and what is missing and damage and such.
Thanks Frenchy
Never in the field of scale modelling was so much owed by so many to so few.
South Carolina, United States
Joined: December 14, 2006
KitMaker: 1,355 posts
Armorama: 979 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 06:10 PM UTC
What's interesting is even though markings and other features appear to match, the front hull plate with the Driver's Vision Port and the Hull MG are different in each picture.
#1 Hull Spaced Armor:
#2 Hull Spaced Armor missing but there is a frame around the Hull MG, no ridge over the Driver's Vision Port:
#3 Hull Spaced Armor missing, NO frame around the Hull MG, but there appears to be a ridge over the Driver's Vision Port:
What's even more interesting is that since damaged fenders ends appear to be present in picture #3, to me that picture (#3) should be in between #1 and #2 in time, as #2 is missing the fender ends.
ESSAYONS!
"Man does not live until he looks to the future, and that is his salvation in the worst of times.".... (Author Unknown)
AMPS #2102
England - North West, United Kingdom
Joined: April 20, 2004
KitMaker: 2,439 posts
Armorama: 1,980 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 06:27 PM UTC
It's a very complicated Panzer
Should I build it as Picture #1 picture #2 or picture #3
Ha ha
Never in the field of scale modelling was so much owed by so many to so few.
