AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Matthew Toms
Making a tank look more like steel?
Removed by original poster on 08/02/17 - 20:44:34 (GMT).
George587
Joined: September 06, 2016
KitMaker: 14 posts
Armorama: 11 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 01:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I was a little confused about this posting, until I did as he said and looked at "Wilber Wright Trumpeter BR 52". This bring us to the FSM web page. I take it George is "Wilber Wright", since his FSM profile matches what he's said above. He's done a nice clean build of the BR 52 (although PB has deleted his images on the actual FSM website-- a problem most of you are experiencing here as well). I don't "Google" I use "Bing" and his photos come up there in the "Image"section with a link to the FSM blog. It doesnt look like there is much weathering on his BR 52, but all I can see at FSM are laudatory comments on his build-- I don't see any "nonsense" thier either. For the life of me, I don't see what "nonsense" he's referring to at either site. George buddy-- you need to be a little more clear on what you want and what you mean. Several folks have steered you in the right direction.
VR, Russ
How much clearer could the original question have been? Then someone that doesn't know me is going to lecture a master modeler asking a precise question that it's called "Weathering. Really? Several good answers and a dose of lecturing condescending replies from a couple, when they don't know me, my experience, or general expertise.
George587
Joined: September 06, 2016
KitMaker: 14 posts
Armorama: 11 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 01:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
These guides might help George
http://www.migjimenez.com/en/content/7-downloads-ammo-of-mig-jimenez
Back to the Jagdtiger he has used the burnishing well around the top of the turret to accentuate the thickness of the armour plate, thus giving it mass and depth that equates to the feeling of solidity and weight.
The MIG dark steel pigment is the answer here. Thanks.
That's the answer. No Lecture. See how easy that was.
Namabiiru
Associate Editor
#399
Joined: March 05, 2014
KitMaker: 2,888 posts
Armorama: 1,920 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 02:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThese guides might help George
http://www.migjimenez.com/en/content/7-downloads-ammo-of-mig-jimenez
Back to the Jagdtiger he has used the burnishing well around the top of the turret to accentuate the thickness of the armour plate, thus giving it mass and depth that equates to the feeling of solidity and weight.
The MIG dark steel pigment is the answer here. Thanks.
That's the answer. No Lecture. See how easy that was.
I like the MIG dark steel and use it quite a bit where bare steel is needed. AFAIK a cheap tube of graphite (which I think someone already mentioned) works as well. Have not tried any of the other metallic pigments yet.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 03:37 AM UTC
I don't mean to hijack your thread, but can somebody who's tried give us pros and cons of graphite, over purpose made pigment? I've only used graphite. However, I am looking at purchasing Mig's Dark Iron or Steel piment(s).
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 03:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I don't mean to hijack your thread, but can somebody who's tried give us pros and cons of graphite, over purpose made pigment? I've only used graphite. However, I am looking at purchasing Mig's Dark Iron or Steel piment(s).
Easy, back in the day we didn't have all these ready made pigments, washes, filters, mud and other stuff that are now available so we made our own. Graphite was what there was/is plus it's a lot cheaper. You can use it directly from a pencil, grind it yourself on some sand paper, get graphite powder lube (messy). The pros for the ready made is you can get more shade variations. And It's probably not graphite so it's not such a mess to apply.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 03:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI don't mean to hijack your thread, but can somebody who's tried give us pros and cons of graphite, over purpose made pigment? I've only used graphite. However, I am looking at purchasing Mig's Dark Iron or Steel piment(s).
Easy, back in the day we didn't have all these ready made pigments, washes, filters, mud and other stuff that are now available so we made our own. Graphite was what there was/is plus it's a lot cheaper. You can use it directly from a pencil, grind it yourself on some sand paper, get graphite powder lube (messy). The pros for the ready made is you can get more shade variations. And It's probably not graphite so it's not such a mess to apply.
Thank you for the succinct answer. One thing I like about graphite is being able to apply it, directly from a pencil. I've never noticed that it is too much of a mess. I'm afraid I would not know which shade of pigment to use where.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 04:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextI don't mean to hijack your thread, but can somebody who's tried give us pros and cons of graphite, over purpose made pigment? I've only used graphite. However, I am looking at purchasing Mig's Dark Iron or Steel piment(s).
Easy, back in the day we didn't have all these ready made pigments, washes, filters, mud and other stuff that are now available so we made our own. Graphite was what there was/is plus it's a lot cheaper. You can use it directly from a pencil, grind it yourself on some sand paper, get graphite powder lube (messy). The pros for the ready made is you can get more shade variations. And It's probably not graphite so it's not such a mess to apply.
Thank you for the succinct answer. One thing I like about graphite is being able to apply it, directly from a pencil. I've never noticed that it is too much of a mess. I'm afraid I would not know which shade of pigment to use where.
Matt-- you can make your own "steel pigment" just by rubbing a number 2 pencil over some sandpaper. I use it both ways-- and for 40 years now I've never purchased a commercial "steel" pigment. Also, you can use a pencil to simulate battle damage marks in armor by using a drill bit to make a small indentation, then using the pencil point to rub in the indentation.
VR, Russ
joepanzer
Joined: January 21, 2004
KitMaker: 803 posts
Armorama: 740 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 06:27 AM UTC
I believe Derwent makes a set of tinted graphite pencils that might serve to imitate the different metal "flavors"??
I have a set that act as watercolor pencils. But it's graphite. And it totally changes the color.
Strange.
I have a set that act as watercolor pencils. But it's graphite. And it totally changes the color.
Strange.
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
Armorama: 1,860 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 06:30 AM UTC
I use graphite on just about every armor build I do. Even a few aircraft when appropriate. With some practice you can get a number of useful effects out of one little pencil.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 06:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextI don't mean to hijack your thread, but can somebody who's tried give us pros and cons of graphite, over purpose made pigment? I've only used graphite. However, I am looking at purchasing Mig's Dark Iron or Steel piment(s).
Easy, back in the day we didn't have all these ready made pigments, washes, filters, mud and other stuff that are now available so we made our own. Graphite was what there was/is plus it's a lot cheaper. You can use it directly from a pencil, grind it yourself on some sand paper, get graphite powder lube (messy). The pros for the ready made is you can get more shade variations. And It's probably not graphite so it's not such a mess to apply.
Thank you for the succinct answer. One thing I like about graphite is being able to apply it, directly from a pencil. I've never noticed that it is too much of a mess. I'm afraid I would not know which shade of pigment to use where.
Matt-- you can make your own "steel pigment" just by rubbing a number 2 pencil over some sandpaper. I use it both ways-- and for 40 years now I've never purchased a commercial "steel" pigment. Also, you can use a pencil to simulate battle damage marks in armor by using a drill bit to make a small indentation, then using the pencil point to rub in the indentation.
VR, Russ
I never thought trying a drill bit to simulate damage. I am working, on a project right now that will benefit from this technique. Thank you.
I apologize for taking this off topic George.
Taylortony
Joined: November 30, 2010
KitMaker: 126 posts
Armorama: 102 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 07:34 PM UTC
George and others, I recommend you read the IS3 article on here
http://ak-interactive.com/v2/downloads-2/tutorials/
http://ak-interactive.com/v2/downloads-2/tutorials/
sgtreef
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
Armorama: 4,347 posts
Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 06:04 AM UTC
I still use Graphite , that I got from my first real job , back in 73. 
I was told could take a Planters Peanut jar of it home , as we got it in big buckets. Still almost full. A little goes a long way.
Dang that was 44 years ago.
Enjoy.
I was told could take a Planters Peanut jar of it home , as we got it in big buckets. Still almost full. A little goes a long way.
Dang that was 44 years ago.
Enjoy.
Das_Abteilung
Joined: August 31, 2010
KitMaker: 365 posts
Armorama: 351 posts
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 - 08:25 PM UTC
I agree that much wear and tear weathering is hugely overdone. Artistry has perhaps overtaken realism and reality. In WW2, vehicles had very short combat lives and rarely survived long enough to get into the sort of dilapidated, sometimes almost paint-less, state that many modellers depict.
And the only damn fool question is the one you don't ask when you should. The purpose of forums like this is to help those who need help and knowledge, not be critical of or sarcastic about that lack of knowledge or to make ourselves look good. We all started somewhere, and it isn't where we are today.
People tend to forget that the only bright metal you might see worn on an AFV - stand fast track and sprocket wearing surfaces - would be sheet-metal parts like stowage bins, and weld metal. The latter seems to remain bright metal regardless. Armour plate adopts a dark brown colour as part of the heat treatment and carburisation process and, while not being strictly stainless, often contains substances like nickel and the afore-mentioned carbon that serve to inhibit rust. So wear through would be to that dark brown and not to bright shiny metal. The light metal parts would of course tend to rust.
Graphite powder and pencils are excellent for reproducing metal edges and areas that are highly-trafficked and worn. I find that metallic pigments tend to get where you don't want them to be and are often then hard to get rid of. Graphite is quite dense and falls or blows off more easily. I have a set of wooden drawing pencils in a range of hard and soft grades. I also have several grades of solid graphite pencils, where the long side of the point can be used to good effect and wider effects can be achieved by shaping the point. Carpenter's pencils with their thick soft rectangular core can be useful too. Use sand paper to shape, catch the dust and there's your free graphite powder to use on a finger, cotton bud, etc. A finger tip is my preferred tool for doing the outside of tracks
Shell and bullet strikes would contain smears of the projectile material and the local momentary melting would potentially alter the metallurgy at that point, so rusting may result.
German gun barrels were finished in a dark grey heat-resistant lacquer and not always painted at the tank factory or if replaced in the field. So any wear through the panzer grey, dunkelgelb, etc top coat would initially be to that dark grey. AFAIK wear through to bare metal was unusual except for impact damage.
High manganese tracks wear to an almost golden shade with a hint of brown, and not especially bright. Outside face wear on ordinary steel tracks is best represented with graphite, not shiny paint or pigment. The running contact surfaces inside will however most usually be highly polished if the vehicle is in use. I use a metaliser paste on a flat brush or cotton swab. But watch where the wheels and teeth contact the tracks. It isn't usually full-width so you get a striped effect of polished and dirty. A Jagdtiger, for example - assuming Henschel suspension and standard tracks - will have 8 points of contact between tracks, wheels, idlers and sprockets. Some of which will overlap, but I'm sure there is an un-worn strip between the outer road wheels and the sprocket teeth, and of course no shiny wear outside the sprockets. Paper stumps or cotton buds can be used for a bit of burnishing.
Hope some of these potted observations are helpful.
And the only damn fool question is the one you don't ask when you should. The purpose of forums like this is to help those who need help and knowledge, not be critical of or sarcastic about that lack of knowledge or to make ourselves look good. We all started somewhere, and it isn't where we are today.
People tend to forget that the only bright metal you might see worn on an AFV - stand fast track and sprocket wearing surfaces - would be sheet-metal parts like stowage bins, and weld metal. The latter seems to remain bright metal regardless. Armour plate adopts a dark brown colour as part of the heat treatment and carburisation process and, while not being strictly stainless, often contains substances like nickel and the afore-mentioned carbon that serve to inhibit rust. So wear through would be to that dark brown and not to bright shiny metal. The light metal parts would of course tend to rust.
Graphite powder and pencils are excellent for reproducing metal edges and areas that are highly-trafficked and worn. I find that metallic pigments tend to get where you don't want them to be and are often then hard to get rid of. Graphite is quite dense and falls or blows off more easily. I have a set of wooden drawing pencils in a range of hard and soft grades. I also have several grades of solid graphite pencils, where the long side of the point can be used to good effect and wider effects can be achieved by shaping the point. Carpenter's pencils with their thick soft rectangular core can be useful too. Use sand paper to shape, catch the dust and there's your free graphite powder to use on a finger, cotton bud, etc. A finger tip is my preferred tool for doing the outside of tracks
Shell and bullet strikes would contain smears of the projectile material and the local momentary melting would potentially alter the metallurgy at that point, so rusting may result.
German gun barrels were finished in a dark grey heat-resistant lacquer and not always painted at the tank factory or if replaced in the field. So any wear through the panzer grey, dunkelgelb, etc top coat would initially be to that dark grey. AFAIK wear through to bare metal was unusual except for impact damage.
High manganese tracks wear to an almost golden shade with a hint of brown, and not especially bright. Outside face wear on ordinary steel tracks is best represented with graphite, not shiny paint or pigment. The running contact surfaces inside will however most usually be highly polished if the vehicle is in use. I use a metaliser paste on a flat brush or cotton swab. But watch where the wheels and teeth contact the tracks. It isn't usually full-width so you get a striped effect of polished and dirty. A Jagdtiger, for example - assuming Henschel suspension and standard tracks - will have 8 points of contact between tracks, wheels, idlers and sprockets. Some of which will overlap, but I'm sure there is an un-worn strip between the outer road wheels and the sprocket teeth, and of course no shiny wear outside the sprockets. Paper stumps or cotton buds can be used for a bit of burnishing.
Hope some of these potted observations are helpful.
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