Armor/AFV
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afv club fit issues
trakpin
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 667 posts
Armorama: 639 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 03:59 PM UTC
is there some special black magical way to fit the top decks to their RAAC Centurion? while not the same type engine deck parts on the Sho't Kal went in perfectly. for the other, either the parts are too wide, the lower hull sides too thick or both. also, the turret ring is a git off center from he hull side protrusions. thinking on getting a Sho't and salvaging what parts I can from the RAAC, including the proper unused parts I already have from the Sho't Kal and starting over
Pedro
Joined: May 26, 2003
KitMaker: 1,208 posts
Armorama: 1,023 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 06:04 PM UTC
Fit should rather be splendid, granted, the moulds are a 'few' years old but still have they deteriorated this bad? Nothing but perfect when I built mine back in 2006 or 2007.
Maybe these photos of assembled hull from PMMS will help you a bit?
https://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/afvclub/afv35100d01.htm
HTH
Greg
Maybe these photos of assembled hull from PMMS will help you a bit?
https://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/afvclub/afv35100d01.htm
HTH
Greg
trakpin
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 667 posts
Armorama: 639 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 06:13 PM UTC
I'm looking as those at this very moment. what it is, is, the rear engine decks sit on TOP of the hull sides, rather than being flush/counter sunk. the Sho't kal I built up had a PERfect fit, tho that has diff deck parts. even that one's decks parts, which weren't used, wouldn't fit properly. got a Sho't ordered off sprubros. now I just gotta figure on how to remove the suspension, w/out damaging them.
Pedro
Joined: May 26, 2003
KitMaker: 1,208 posts
Armorama: 1,023 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 07:57 PM UTC
Could you just press the deck parts inside the hull sides? I'm guessing the hull tub got somewhat warped, so maybe jjust try to press them inside?
Greg
Greg
frank01
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 195 posts
Armorama: 175 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 09:08 PM UTC
no issues with the three i have made,
did you put c37 under the c31/c41 grills,
I usely place in c37 then c34, c24 so the front lines up then grills (c31/c41) and last c38,c40
did you put c37 under the c31/c41 grills,
I usely place in c37 then c34, c24 so the front lines up then grills (c31/c41) and last c38,c40
TigerTiger
Joined: January 19, 2017
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 31 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 09:10 PM UTC
No problem with mine it was a perfect fit, suspect you may have got a duff one or one that was stored near some heat.
trakpin
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 667 posts
Armorama: 639 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 09:15 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Could you just press the deck parts inside the hull sides? I'm guessing the hull tub got somewhat warped, so maybe just try to press them inside?
Greg
nope, no press fit. either one side or the other would still sit atop the hull side. the decks are almost as wide as the hull itself, the outer surface/edge. forcing them in would result in the sides bowing outward. after a LOT of scraping, had no sandpaper just a #11, I did get them in, but that resulted in a broken turret ring.
01, don't have it here with me now, it's still at work, but I'm assuming you're referring to the flat plate then the grills. the ring deck wouldn't slide in under the forward edge of the grills. even the hinges wouldn't line up w/out some scraping. hast to be a duff parts. the turret went together easily enuff
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 09:26 PM UTC
I'll check the fit of one of mine later this evening.
/ Robin
/ Robin
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 01:59 AM UTC
I am happy to report that the fit is perfect.
The parts C38 and C31+C40 almost falls into the lower hull.
Part C37 (the turret ring) also fits perfectly.
NOTE: it is not supposed to fit between the hull sides.
The turret ring overhangs the hull sides by 1 mm or slightly more. The hull sides have little circle segments to match this overhang. A close examination of the underside of C37 shows that there is a small ledge molded into the edge. The bottom one third of C37 fits between the hull sides and the upper two thirds overhang. The arcs on the outside of the lower hull fits up into the underside of the turret ring.
When C37 is in place the edges and the upper edges of the hull forms a ledge or corner. This ledge should presumably have a weld bead in the corner.
See this image at Prime Portal (it's a Mk 5):
http://data3.primeportal.net/tanks/mark_minnis/centurion_mk5/images/centurion_mk5_25_of_71.jpg
There is some wire/string hanging down from the turret and below the string, slightly to the right there is something "white". This white something is directly on the wel bead and the edge of the hull "roof" (C37) can be seen. The object in front is part C23 and C2.
/ Robin
The parts C38 and C31+C40 almost falls into the lower hull.
Part C37 (the turret ring) also fits perfectly.
NOTE: it is not supposed to fit between the hull sides.
The turret ring overhangs the hull sides by 1 mm or slightly more. The hull sides have little circle segments to match this overhang. A close examination of the underside of C37 shows that there is a small ledge molded into the edge. The bottom one third of C37 fits between the hull sides and the upper two thirds overhang. The arcs on the outside of the lower hull fits up into the underside of the turret ring.
When C37 is in place the edges and the upper edges of the hull forms a ledge or corner. This ledge should presumably have a weld bead in the corner.
See this image at Prime Portal (it's a Mk 5):
http://data3.primeportal.net/tanks/mark_minnis/centurion_mk5/images/centurion_mk5_25_of_71.jpg
There is some wire/string hanging down from the turret and below the string, slightly to the right there is something "white". This white something is directly on the wel bead and the edge of the hull "roof" (C37) can be seen. The object in front is part C23 and C2.
/ Robin
trakpin
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 667 posts
Armorama: 639 posts
Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 02:24 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I am happy to report that the fit is perfect.
The parts C38 and C31+C40 almost falls into the lower hull.
Part C37 (the turret ring) also fits perfectly.
NOTE: it is not supposed to fit between the hull sides.
The turret ring overhangs the hull sides by 1 mm or slightly more. The hull sides have little circle segments to match this overhang. A close examination of the underside of C37 shows that there is a small ledge molded into the edge. The bottom one third of C37 fits between the hull sides and the upper two thirds overhang. The arcs on the outside of the lower hull fits up into the underside of the turret ring.
When C37 is in place the edges and the upper edges of the hull forms a ledge or corner. This ledge should presumably have a weld bead in the corner.
See this image at Prime Portal (it's a Mk 5):
http://data3.primeportal.net/tanks/mark_minnis/centurion_mk5/images/centurion_mk5_25_of_71.jpg
There is some wire/string hanging down from the turret and below the string, slightly to the right there is something "white". This white something is directly on the wel bead and the edge of the hull "roof" (C37) can be seen. The object in front is part C23 and C2.
/ Robin
you sure? all the pix I've seen, including one on pmms, show the aft engine deck, grill and flat plate, as being flush
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 02:28 AM UTC
The engineering of C37 is rather obvious and I had to filter through a lot of images to find the one I provided the link for.
It has to be a photo which looks in under the turret side bins from the front or slightly from the outside in over the storage bins over the tracks.
The engine deck itself is flush, the parts wanted to drop into the hull as soon as I breathed on them ....
C37 is narrower at the rear end where it fits between the raised sides of the lower hull, it goes in underneath the engine deck.
/ Robin
It has to be a photo which looks in under the turret side bins from the front or slightly from the outside in over the storage bins over the tracks.
The engine deck itself is flush, the parts wanted to drop into the hull as soon as I breathed on them ....
C37 is narrower at the rear end where it fits between the raised sides of the lower hull, it goes in underneath the engine deck.
/ Robin
trakpin
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 667 posts
Armorama: 639 posts
Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 02:33 AM UTC
so, why would the Sho't kal go together as intended, but not this one? the revised engine deck of the Sho't fit between the hull sides easily enuff, and both types would have the be the same width
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 02:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
so, why would the Sho't kal go together as intended, but not this one? the revised engine deck of the Sho't fit between the hull sides easily enuff, and both types would have the be the same width
Which kit number? 35124 ?
My 35124 is too far back in the stash so I can't get at it without pulling out a lot of boxes so I checked 35277 (IDF Sho't Kal Dalet with battering ram) instead and part C37 and the lower hull are the same. C37 slides in under the engine deck.
/ Robin
Edit:
Right front of a Mk 5A (whatever that means ..)
http://data3.primeportal.net/tanks/mark_minnis/centurion_mk5a/images/centurion_mk5a_03_of_19.jpg
Look at the edge of the horizontal hull top, just behind the sloping plate with the drivers hatch, the front right corner of the horizontal plate is visible as well as the weld bead.
A better view of the camouflaged one in the snow:
http://data3.primeportal.net/tanks/mark_minnis/centurion_mk5/images/centurion_mk5_24_of_71.jpg
The edge of the top plate is visible which means that it cannot be flush inside the hull sides.
This image shows the edge of the hull side next to the sloping plate (upper section of the glacis, part C34).
C34 is inside the sides of the hull. C24 is at the very front of the picture and extends over the hull sides.
Part C37 overlaps the hull sides halfway, the front left corner and the weld bead is visible next to the little iced over puddle on the sponson boxes.
http://data3.primeportal.net/tanks/mark_minnis/centurion_mk5/images/centurion_mk5_30_of_71.jpg
View from above, photographers shoe is visible on top of C37 and then there is a "ditch" with the weld bead and then comes the sponson boxes.
http://data3.primeportal.net/tanks/mark_minnis/centurion_mk5/images/centurion_mk5_37_of_71.jpg
Front right corner of a Mk 6:
http://data3.primeportal.net/tanks/robert_de_craecker/centurion_fv4011_mk.6_105mm_l7a1/images/centurion_fv4011_mk.6_105mm_17a1_56_of_56.jpg
Same corner of C37 is visible and C34 comes up from between the hull sides and meets C37 with weld beads filling up around the corner of C37 and the triangular visible edge of C34.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 03:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
so, why would the Sho't kal go together as intended, but not this one? the revised engine deck of the Sho't fit between the hull sides easily enuff, and both types would have the be the same width
Warped parts?
Trying to force C37 down between the hull sides would bring everything out of alignment. The top of the glacis would not meet C37 as it should, there would be a small "step" behind the top of the glacis and front edge of C37.
The hull sides would get forced aside and there would possibly be a gap at the sides of the the engine deck.
As I noted above: The engine deck parts on my kit fit perfectly between the raised hull sides and rest on top of the rear edge of C37.
/ Robin
trakpin
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 667 posts
Armorama: 639 posts
Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 04:02 PM UTC
nope, no warpage either, al least there didn't appear to be. to get 37 under 31/41 the indents had to be narrowed as well to fit inside sidewalls. about the pic above, that "step" isn't there, forward of the turret ring sits on top of the sides.
if the Sho't doesn't have similar issues, I'm putting it up to a bad molding somehow. if it DOES, then these'll be the last afv club. if so, here's hoping takom comes out with a decent Centurion, just like their Chieftains
if the Sho't doesn't have similar issues, I'm putting it up to a bad molding somehow. if it DOES, then these'll be the last afv club. if so, here's hoping takom comes out with a decent Centurion, just like their Chieftains
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 05:32 PM UTC
Measurements:
35100
Thickness of hull sidewall at turret ring: 1.6 mm (1.65 left side, 1.55 right side)
Inside distance between top of hull sidewalls at centre of the protrusions for the turret ring: 54.8 mm
Same measurement where the hull sides rise up for the engine deck: 55.0
Inside hull sidewalls at top of the little ledge for the engine deck parts: 55.7 mm
Width of part C37,
under the engine deck: 55.2 mm (a very slight press fit) since the edges of the cut-outs are angled to fit the angle of the hull sidewalls the distance between the sidewalls should be measured 1 mm up on the slope so I think they are an exact fit. The slight pressure fit could be caused by the mold flash where the two gussets/angles are on top of C37 and I haven't filed down all of the injection gate either.
over the cutouts to fit the hull sidewalls at the turret ring: 54.8 mm
maximum width, the overlap over the top of the hull sides: 56.6 mm
width over turret ring protrusions: 61.7 mm
Width over turret ring protrusions on lower hull: 60.3 mm
which should fit into the inside diameter of C37: 60.3 mm
Lower hull width outside of engine deck: 59.3 mm
The stamping inside the lower hull reads: "AFV-CLUB 35100-A 2006 TAIWAN"
Conclusion: The top deck parts in my 35100 fit perfectly.
/ Robin
Dryfit with all flash and injection gates more or less still in place. Note the little corner created by the top of the hull side, the front of C37 and the side of C34.
The 'corner' on the right (drivers) side (the slight "lift" of C37 is caused by a slight banana-shape of C37, cured with glue and a slight pressure):
that weld corner on the Mk 6 at Prime Portal:
For some reason I got broken links, it looks OK right now but ...
35100
Thickness of hull sidewall at turret ring: 1.6 mm (1.65 left side, 1.55 right side)
Inside distance between top of hull sidewalls at centre of the protrusions for the turret ring: 54.8 mm
Same measurement where the hull sides rise up for the engine deck: 55.0
Inside hull sidewalls at top of the little ledge for the engine deck parts: 55.7 mm
Width of part C37,
under the engine deck: 55.2 mm (a very slight press fit) since the edges of the cut-outs are angled to fit the angle of the hull sidewalls the distance between the sidewalls should be measured 1 mm up on the slope so I think they are an exact fit. The slight pressure fit could be caused by the mold flash where the two gussets/angles are on top of C37 and I haven't filed down all of the injection gate either.
over the cutouts to fit the hull sidewalls at the turret ring: 54.8 mm
maximum width, the overlap over the top of the hull sides: 56.6 mm
width over turret ring protrusions: 61.7 mm
Width over turret ring protrusions on lower hull: 60.3 mm
which should fit into the inside diameter of C37: 60.3 mm
Lower hull width outside of engine deck: 59.3 mm
The stamping inside the lower hull reads: "AFV-CLUB 35100-A 2006 TAIWAN"
Conclusion: The top deck parts in my 35100 fit perfectly.
/ Robin
Dryfit with all flash and injection gates more or less still in place. Note the little corner created by the top of the hull side, the front of C37 and the side of C34.
The 'corner' on the right (drivers) side (the slight "lift" of C37 is caused by a slight banana-shape of C37, cured with glue and a slight pressure):
that weld corner on the Mk 6 at Prime Portal:
For some reason I got broken links, it looks OK right now but ...
Removed by original poster on 08/08/17 - 13:21:31 (GMT).
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 06:22 PM UTC
Maybe this works more reliably ....
Removed by original poster on 08/08/17 - 14:19:52 (GMT).
TigerTiger
Joined: January 19, 2017
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 31 posts
Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 11:43 PM UTC
Trakpin do you have any photos?
I've built a couple and had none of the issues you describe.
I've built a couple and had none of the issues you describe.
trakpin
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 667 posts
Armorama: 639 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 01:26 AM UTC
appreciate the input. no pix, as they wouldn't show much anyway due to scraping the edges of 31/41 grill section and the transmission cover and drivers hatch section to make them fit, which I think left the turret ring out of center and which broke at the sides/thinnest. turret no longer fits. I'll wait and see how things fit with the Sho't.
in trying to force the parts in, they'd spring back up. also, Robin, what kit are those in the last pix? plastic color suggests IDF tanks, and as I said previously, my Sho't kal had NO hull fit issues
in trying to force the parts in, they'd spring back up. also, Robin, what kit are those in the last pix? plastic color suggests IDF tanks, and as I said previously, my Sho't kal had NO hull fit issues
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 02:24 AM UTC
Photo of 35100 taken in bright sunlight without any white balance correction or post processing to fix the strange colour.
Parts springing back up when forced in. This is caused by the sloping sides of the hull. The further down the narrower it gets and as soon as you release the parts the pressure from the hull sides and the low friction of the plastic will cause the parts to pop back up.
I have scanned the front half underside of C37 and added some arrows to point at relevant features.
Red: the ledge that overhangs the top of the hull sides. This edge shall NOT be forced down between the hull sides since this will cause fit issues with C34 (roof over driver) and C24 (front section of glacis). It will also cause C37 to appear too wide at the cutouts at the rear end. The width of C37 at this point fits between the hull sides at the intended height over the hull bottom. Since the hull sides are not vertical the width inside will decrease closer to the hull bottom causing C37 too jam if it is forced down. There will also be a gap under the front edge of C31/C41.
Blue: The cutout to receive the lip at the rear edge of C34, forcing C37 down will push C34 deeper into the hull and it will not fit due to the sloping hull sides (narrower and narrower further down ..). If C34 is forced into the wrong position (height above floor and/or slope angle) there will probably be issues with the joint between C34 and C24.
Green: Turret ring overhang. If C37 is forced down then the protrusions on the hull sides will not fit up inside this ring and the protrusions will have to be filed down.
Hope the linking to the image works ...
/ Robin
Parts springing back up when forced in. This is caused by the sloping sides of the hull. The further down the narrower it gets and as soon as you release the parts the pressure from the hull sides and the low friction of the plastic will cause the parts to pop back up.
I have scanned the front half underside of C37 and added some arrows to point at relevant features.
Red: the ledge that overhangs the top of the hull sides. This edge shall NOT be forced down between the hull sides since this will cause fit issues with C34 (roof over driver) and C24 (front section of glacis). It will also cause C37 to appear too wide at the cutouts at the rear end. The width of C37 at this point fits between the hull sides at the intended height over the hull bottom. Since the hull sides are not vertical the width inside will decrease closer to the hull bottom causing C37 too jam if it is forced down. There will also be a gap under the front edge of C31/C41.
Blue: The cutout to receive the lip at the rear edge of C34, forcing C37 down will push C34 deeper into the hull and it will not fit due to the sloping hull sides (narrower and narrower further down ..). If C34 is forced into the wrong position (height above floor and/or slope angle) there will probably be issues with the joint between C34 and C24.
Green: Turret ring overhang. If C37 is forced down then the protrusions on the hull sides will not fit up inside this ring and the protrusions will have to be filed down.
Hope the linking to the image works ...
/ Robin
trakpin
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 667 posts
Armorama: 639 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 02:56 AM UTC
dunno what it is, but the parts were molded as they should be, as shown in the scan. it's just that they simply didn't fit w/out some surgery. the ring overhang seemed a bit to large on mine. there was a noticeable between the hull and ring. with the exception of of the rear of 37, being under 31/41 and not fitting, it's the only part that sorta fit forward, in that it was almost the same width as the hull. just don't understand it
m4sherman
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 1,808 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 03:50 AM UTC
Both RAAC and Shot Centurions have the same front hull parts.
If you glued part C24 on first, like I did, and the hull sides were not spread out properly, parts C34 and C37 will not fit. I had to pop C24 off and use C37 to hold the hull sides in the proper place. After I had sanded C34 down to fit of course. I also had C37 bow up due to the squeeze effect and I ended up adding a thick brace underneath.
I suspect you got caught by the same hull squeeze. My other Centurion kit, the 1967 Shot was ok. It's good to know I'm not the only victim out there.
If you glued part C24 on first, like I did, and the hull sides were not spread out properly, parts C34 and C37 will not fit. I had to pop C24 off and use C37 to hold the hull sides in the proper place. After I had sanded C34 down to fit of course. I also had C37 bow up due to the squeeze effect and I ended up adding a thick brace underneath.
I suspect you got caught by the same hull squeeze. My other Centurion kit, the 1967 Shot was ok. It's good to know I'm not the only victim out there.
trakpin
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 667 posts
Armorama: 639 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 04:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Both RAAC and Shot Centurions have the same front hull parts.
If you glued part C24 on first, like I did, and the hull sides were not spread out properly, parts C34 and C37 will not fit. I had to pop C24 off and use C37 to hold the hull sides in the proper place. After I had sanded C34 down to fit of course. I also had C37 bow up due to the squeeze effect and I ended up adding a thick brace underneath.
I suspect you got caught by the same hull squeeze. My other Centurion kit, the 1967 Shot was ok. It's good to know I'm not the only victim out there.
yeah, that's possible, except I went from the rear forward. seeing as your Sho't was ok, I'll use mine, when it gets here, to build up a Brit Mk5, leaving off certain parts of course
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