This is a question to all those who are a lover of German armor. Why is there so much emphisis placed on new kits towards German WW2 armor?
I was looking through the new Fine Scale Modeler with the 2004 new kit releases, and it would seem most new 1/35th scale kits are WW2 German. Why is this? Are most of you here into WW2 armor?
I question this because outside of a few battles, German military equipment didnt seem to fair very well, US and Russian forces defeated them soundly on both fronts. Why is there such an interest in this area?
Now most if not all modern combat has been successfully won with US designed or built equipment, why not more new kits in this area? As an example, most of Dragon's new kits are German, with a few kits later this year devoted to US armor. Does US armor not sell very well outside of America? Is this where the money is, WW2 German?
This post is not an attack on anyone or their interests, and in no way do I feel my opinion is anything more than just that, my opinion. I know many other nations have fielded very capable weapon systems, so again, not an attack towards anyone. Just looking for some input from others on this topic.
Melon
Hosted by Darren Baker
Why German Armor?
melon
Joined: November 21, 2003
KitMaker: 347 posts
Armorama: 313 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 02:15 PM UTC
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 02:32 PM UTC
I believe that German armor is a big seller in the Far East. While I do not see the attraction to wanting to build the tank Michael Wittmann rode when his regular tank had the oil changed, there is a lot more WW2 German armor builders than allied. I am impressed by their work, not that Allied builders aren't any good.
The Germans had a lot of interesting and neat pieces with elaborate camouflage schemes.
The Germans had a lot of interesting and neat pieces with elaborate camouflage schemes.
MEBM
Joined: July 19, 2003
KitMaker: 1,055 posts
Armorama: 530 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 02:39 PM UTC
Well, with so many fronts (i.e. Russian, African, Western, Italian, etc....), the Germans made all kind of different vehicles and so many varients. Take the Sdkfz. 251 (Hanomag) for example: I think there are about 20-30 varients of it. When you make all of those, from every front, chances are you only have a few years left in your life :-). Also, take a look at some of the camoflauge patterns. There's MILLIONS of them! With Allied (US) you just have olive drab. It's gets a little, well, boring after a while. With German, you can make wild patterns with different colors (i.e. African Front with it's three to sometimes four color pattern).
Now, yes, German armor was defeated on all fronts, but keep in mind that they weren't always like that. Take France, Poland, the beginning of the Russian Front, and the beginning of the African Front.
Finally, yes, German Armor just seems to be where the money is at. Plenty of US citizens are pure-bled American, there is just more choice with German. I hope I haven't offended you. Thanks for your time.
EDIT: Blast you, Sabot! I was here first! I'm just a slow typer!
STOMP!
STOMP!
STOMP!
STOMP!
SLAM! #:-)
Now, yes, German armor was defeated on all fronts, but keep in mind that they weren't always like that. Take France, Poland, the beginning of the Russian Front, and the beginning of the African Front.
Finally, yes, German Armor just seems to be where the money is at. Plenty of US citizens are pure-bled American, there is just more choice with German. I hope I haven't offended you. Thanks for your time.
EDIT: Blast you, Sabot! I was here first! I'm just a slow typer!
STOMP!
STOMP!
STOMP!
STOMP!
SLAM! #:-)
War_Machine
Joined: February 11, 2003
KitMaker: 702 posts
Armorama: 385 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 02:43 PM UTC
I think that a lot of the appeal lies in the looks of German armor from WW2. German armor, especially in the last two years, had very appealing lines and looked like powerful, brutish beasts. They just look cool and nasty at the same time. In addition, German armor often had elaborate and widely varying camouflage patterns which gives modellers a lot of different finishing options, whereas allied armor tends to be drab and monochromatic or had only simple cammo. Finally, the literature of WW2 had largely mythologized German armor to near invincibility in the past and that perception still lingers and, I think, influences many builders to look with greater admiration on German subjects.
Personally, I like to build anything so long as it's camouflaged (yes, one color schemes count), has tracks, and gets muddy, dusty, or grimy, but that's just me.
Personally, I like to build anything so long as it's camouflaged (yes, one color schemes count), has tracks, and gets muddy, dusty, or grimy, but that's just me.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 02:52 PM UTC
Quoted Text
1940 French armor was superior to 1940 German armor. Germany defeated France with tactics (Blitzkrieg). The French were still prepared for a WW1 style frontal assault.Now, yes, German armor was defeated on all fronts, but keep in mind that they weren't always like that. Take France, Poland, the beginning of the Russian Front, and the beginning of the African Front.
melon
Joined: November 21, 2003
KitMaker: 347 posts
Armorama: 313 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 02:53 PM UTC
Thanks for the quick relpys! Just sitting here at work, bored. And to MEBM, no offense taken. I never really explored German armor, no interest in it. Just curious as to the appeal of it all. Another question, are most people who visit here into modern or WW2 armor? To the monitors, are younger modelers, (under say 30 yrs of age) into modern and the older crowd into WW2? When I arrive into my fifties, am I going to be defending my love of late 20th century US armor? 
Melon.
Melon.
Kencelot
Joined: December 27, 2001
KitMaker: 4,268 posts
Armorama: 2,804 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 02:57 PM UTC
I often ask myself this very same question Melon.
There just seems to be an attraction to the varied color and camo schemes employed by the Germans, as opposed to the more mono toned colors of the Allies.
As far as the different vehicle versions go as a reason to produce them in plastic, I disagree. The Allies had just as many variants of their vehicles too. There are so many Allied vehicles that actively participated in the war that are still not even considered in plastic nor 1/35th.
I still hold hope.
So, it comes down to what sells, gets produced. We need more Allied modelers!
There just seems to be an attraction to the varied color and camo schemes employed by the Germans, as opposed to the more mono toned colors of the Allies.
As far as the different vehicle versions go as a reason to produce them in plastic, I disagree. The Allies had just as many variants of their vehicles too. There are so many Allied vehicles that actively participated in the war that are still not even considered in plastic nor 1/35th.
I still hold hope.
So, it comes down to what sells, gets produced. We need more Allied modelers!
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 03:08 PM UTC
What I find interesting is that modelers are either "WW2" or "Modern". WW2 lasted from 1939-1945.
I do modern armor, but I tend to categorize modern armor into several eras:
1. Korean War, although I do not think of it as modern.
2. Vietnam, this is the real beginning of modern armor.
3. Cold War, although the DoD considers the Cold War from 1945 until the fall of the Wall, in model building it is normally the European theater 1960 until 1990. REFORGERs and NTCs fall into this category.
4. Desert Storm
5. OIF (aka Desert Storm II)
There are several smaller conflicts/genres, like IDF/Middle East Wars, Soviets in Afghanistan, Somalia, IFOR/SFOR/KFOR, Russians in Chechnya, Panama, etc.
I do modern armor, but I tend to categorize modern armor into several eras:
1. Korean War, although I do not think of it as modern.
2. Vietnam, this is the real beginning of modern armor.
3. Cold War, although the DoD considers the Cold War from 1945 until the fall of the Wall, in model building it is normally the European theater 1960 until 1990. REFORGERs and NTCs fall into this category.
4. Desert Storm
5. OIF (aka Desert Storm II)
There are several smaller conflicts/genres, like IDF/Middle East Wars, Soviets in Afghanistan, Somalia, IFOR/SFOR/KFOR, Russians in Chechnya, Panama, etc.
Halfyank
Joined: February 01, 2003
KitMaker: 5,221 posts
Armorama: 1,245 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 03:14 PM UTC
Quoted Text
So, it comes down to what sells, gets produced.
Having been beaten up on this issue too many times I'm really resisting getting involved in this one. I do want to ask one question though? Don't you think the above statement might just be a self fulfilling prophecy? I know this is a totally unscientific obsevation but I notice that the three Hobby Lobby stores, admitedly not a huge model source, carry mainly American items, not just tanks but ships and planes as well. What I notice is that what sells is what's new, weather it's American, British, or German. If, just if mind you, the major companies came out with more new Allied kits then maybe they would sell as well as the German kits do now.
ShermiesRule
Joined: December 11, 2003
KitMaker: 5,409 posts
Armorama: 3,777 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 03:36 PM UTC
Personally I prefer US WW2 Armor but I an intrigued by the later German heavies from Mark V and later. I think the big guns and humongous size just looks overpowering when compared to a Shermie.
hworth18
Joined: January 10, 2003
KitMaker: 426 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 04:30 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Well, with so many fronts (i.e. Russian, African, Western, Italian, etc....), the Germans made all kind of different vehicles and so many varients. Take the Sdkfz. 251 (Hanomag) for example: I think there are about 20-30 varients of it. When you make all of those, from every front, chances are you only have a few years left in your life :-). Also, take a look at some of the camoflauge patterns. There's MILLIONS of them! With Allied (US) you just have olive drab. It's gets a little, well, boring after a while. With German, you can make wild patterns with different colors (i.e. African Front with it's three to sometimes four color pattern).
Now, yes, German armor was defeated on all fronts, but keep in mind that they weren't always like that. Take France, Poland, the beginning of the Russian Front, and the beginning of the African Front.
Finally, yes, German Armor just seems to be where the money is at. Plenty of US citizens are pure-bled American, there is just more choice with German. I hope I haven't offended you. Thanks for your time.
I'll agree with that!!!!!!
capnjock
Joined: May 19, 2003
KitMaker: 860 posts
Armorama: 411 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 04:45 PM UTC
I REALLY like modern the best. 2nd is WW1 British 3rd is self-propelled guns anybodies. After that it is some pieces German and some American. To me it really has to do with the look of the thing(also just happen to have a soft spot for fiels arty).
capnjock
capnjock
garrybeebe
Joined: November 24, 2003
KitMaker: 1,969 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 04:51 PM UTC
Ok, I have a little different take on all of this. Now I build Armor, ships and aircraft. With ships, I build any countries navies. More heavily tword Germany ships, but there are more Germany ship kits available. But with Armor and Aircraft I only have interest in US and a few british subjects. Why? I realy cant say, I'm trying to figure that one out myself !
Now about what era to model, I'm big into WW-2 subjects. Specialy ships. For me this has to do with history. I love studying WW-2 history, so my modeling falls in line with that. Also the Vietnam era, becouse I can relate with that era. Style and looks has very little to do with my choice in era or country. But like what has been said, thats just me.
Just my 3 clams worth!
Garry
Now about what era to model, I'm big into WW-2 subjects. Specialy ships. For me this has to do with history. I love studying WW-2 history, so my modeling falls in line with that. Also the Vietnam era, becouse I can relate with that era. Style and looks has very little to do with my choice in era or country. But like what has been said, thats just me.
Just my 3 clams worth!
Garry
Weebl
Joined: November 04, 2003
KitMaker: 32 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 06:48 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Another question, are most people who visit here into modern or WW2 armor? To the monitors, are younger modelers, (under say 30 yrs of age) into modern and the older crowd into WW2?
That's not true, at least not for me
. I'm 16, and I love building German just because of the different varieties in vehicles, camo schemes, the places where they fought etc....They look cool too
Rick
Demsul
Joined: December 04, 2002
KitMaker: 29 posts
Armorama: 11 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 07:20 PM UTC
Yep, German WWII gear just looks cooler, from the cammo patterns on tanks to the uniforms. That's why I build german stuff. (I'm not good at it, but what the heck) I also build Allied gear, but lean more toward German.
warthog
Joined: July 29, 2002
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
Armorama: 1,080 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 07:49 PM UTC
I prefer german WW-II armor because of the variety of subjects as mentioned by others. Variety of subjects includes size, shape and color as compared to allied w/c is very limited in a way (not refering to capability but more of the variety). Just my opinion
crossbow
Joined: April 11, 2003
KitMaker: 1,387 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 07:55 PM UTC
Hi,
It's just a question of design. Be honest now compare the elegant curves and lines of a Panther or Kingtiger against the square mobile pillboxes like a Churchill or Cromwell .
Kris
O-o-o, am I going to get some flak now #:-) #:-)
It's just a question of design. Be honest now compare the elegant curves and lines of a Panther or Kingtiger against the square mobile pillboxes like a Churchill or Cromwell
.Kris
O-o-o, am I going to get some flak now #:-) #:-)
straightedge
Joined: January 18, 2004
KitMaker: 1,352 posts
Armorama: 629 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 08:08 PM UTC
Now me I love all military models, and sense I've been coming here, I've opened my eyes to a lot more, before I wanted to do just modern armor, but after looking, and listening to others, I've found out a lot of this older armor has great looks to, and the real big shocker was when I started to see where all the ideas for the M1A1 came from, see I thought it was all from our country here in the US, but if you look it up, you will find out like I did. Always keep an open mind, there is a lot to learn.
APbullet
Joined: October 21, 2003
KitMaker: 236 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 08:34 PM UTC
This is an interesting discussion. I think why people like German armor becasue its rare nowadays. In every museum you see lots of allied stuff but you are lucky when you see more then three good German vehicles. So with moddeling you can created the specific look of German vehicles for yourself.
Another point is that America started to fight in Europe in 1944, whilst the Germans where figthing for over 5 years by then. Hence the enormous amount of different vehicles.
The allies defeated the Germans because of several reasons, like germany had shortage in everything at the start of the war. I believe the had only enough halftracks for three infantry divisions, whilst the had a lot more divisions. Also hitler wasn't all that capable in tactics and strategy.
America build around 55.000 shermans, while for example, the germans build only 1300 tigers. Statistically you needed 4 to 5 shermans to destroy a panther or tiger. So imagine if the germans had as much tigers and panthers as the americans had sherman!!!
And don't forget that the Russians lost over 20 million people in the war!!
Another point is that America started to fight in Europe in 1944, whilst the Germans where figthing for over 5 years by then. Hence the enormous amount of different vehicles.
The allies defeated the Germans because of several reasons, like germany had shortage in everything at the start of the war. I believe the had only enough halftracks for three infantry divisions, whilst the had a lot more divisions. Also hitler wasn't all that capable in tactics and strategy.
America build around 55.000 shermans, while for example, the germans build only 1300 tigers. Statistically you needed 4 to 5 shermans to destroy a panther or tiger. So imagine if the germans had as much tigers and panthers as the americans had sherman!!!
And don't forget that the Russians lost over 20 million people in the war!!
sgirty
Joined: February 12, 2003
KitMaker: 1,315 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 11:45 PM UTC
Hi. I build mostly German stuff because I simply like to. Now I occasionally build Russian, American and British stuff too, both W.W.II and modern, but I normally stick to the German AFVs. Why? There's a mulitude of reasons I suppose. Availability is probably a lot of it.
But more or less I'm just simply 'drawn' to the German side of the war. I find their equipment, uniforms, weapons, etc fascinating. Just like I find myself 'drawn' to reading about the Am. Civil War, colonial American life, and Native American history. Has nothing to do with politics, or 'the good' guys vs. the bad guys' thing as the only side I tend to fall on concerning ANY time period in world history is with the American Indians and their relationships with the Euo-Americans.
I simply build what I like in this hobby, with no national affiliations, past or present, involved. It's rreally as simple as that.
Take care, Sgirty
But more or less I'm just simply 'drawn' to the German side of the war. I find their equipment, uniforms, weapons, etc fascinating. Just like I find myself 'drawn' to reading about the Am. Civil War, colonial American life, and Native American history. Has nothing to do with politics, or 'the good' guys vs. the bad guys' thing as the only side I tend to fall on concerning ANY time period in world history is with the American Indians and their relationships with the Euo-Americans.
I simply build what I like in this hobby, with no national affiliations, past or present, involved. It's rreally as simple as that.
Take care, Sgirty
M113
Joined: March 02, 2003
KitMaker: 411 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, March 05, 2004 - 12:45 AM UTC
The answer is so simple :
Because they all are "Ultimate Driving Machines" :-)
Think about BMW & Mercedes.
Seriously, The world has to thank God, they were out of oil, at last times of WWII.
If u think about the V-1s, V-2s and Messerchmitt first Jets (they were at production level at that time).
And there's another subject that i'm very interested in (and not solved yet, if it's true or not) is the NAZI UFOs, polar submarines bases etc..etc..
And off course lots of variants of each vehicles they have produced, the "Ausführungs".
Simply they really had lots of vehicles, in all fronts.
Because they all are "Ultimate Driving Machines" :-)
Think about BMW & Mercedes.
Seriously, The world has to thank God, they were out of oil, at last times of WWII.
If u think about the V-1s, V-2s and Messerchmitt first Jets (they were at production level at that time).
And there's another subject that i'm very interested in (and not solved yet, if it's true or not) is the NAZI UFOs, polar submarines bases etc..etc..
And off course lots of variants of each vehicles they have produced, the "Ausführungs".
Simply they really had lots of vehicles, in all fronts.
cire
Joined: July 06, 2003
KitMaker: 5 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, March 05, 2004 - 12:57 AM UTC
Well, most of the Allied Tanks are just boring to me.
Sherman Variants, that's it. (yeah I know, there are different things around). I like some of the British vehicles. Stuart and Bishop look very "funny" to me.
Cheers
Eric
Sherman Variants, that's it. (yeah I know, there are different things around). I like some of the British vehicles. Stuart and Bishop look very "funny" to me.
Cheers
Eric
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Friday, March 05, 2004 - 01:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I do modern armor, but I tend to categorize modern armor into several eras:
1. Korean War, although I do not think of it as modern.
2. Vietnam, this is the real beginning of modern armor.
3. Cold War, although the DoD considers the Cold War from 1945 until the fall of the Wall, in model building it is normally the European theater 1960 until 1990. REFORGERs and NTCs fall into this category.
4. Desert Storm
5. OIF (aka Desert Storm II)
I agree 100% with Rob. I build only modern stuff and only in more "strict" definition of "modern" - that is everything beginning from the Vietnam war. I exclude equipment used during Korean War, as I agree with Rob that it was not really modern yet.
I never felt inclination to build German WWII armor - maybe it has something to do with the history of my country. Sure there are thousands of German armor modelers in Poland, but I somehow do not find it cool to build e.g. SS vehicles
I mostly build western armor and aircraft. I've built two AFVs and one aircraft in Polish colors, but western equipment is much more interesting for me and I do not plan to build any more models of Russian-origin equipment. Russian armor does not interest me at all - maybe growing up in a shadow of the Iron Curtain developed the interest in what was behind it in me
Cheers,
Pawel
greatbrit
Joined: May 14, 2003
KitMaker: 2,127 posts
Armorama: 1,217 posts
Posted: Friday, March 05, 2004 - 01:12 AM UTC
i wasnt going to get involved here, but,
i think the main reasons german armour is so popular are;
availability of kits.(loads of kits of loads of versions)
variety of schemes(different camo schemes etc)
the misguided image of superiority(all allied armys had machines equal if not superior)
the view that the germans had more vehicles and more varients is simply untrue, the allies, particularly US and britain had just as many vehicles and varients. they just arent avaliable in kit form and arent as well known.
fair enough the germans did use a huge number of camoflage schemes, and the main reason for this was none of them worked, so they had to keep changing them! OD worked and was retained.(how many modern vehicles are painted in ambush camo?)
most german equipment could be matched by allied stuff. all of the german victories in the early part of the war were due to superior tactics, not superior kit. as has already been mentioned, french tanks were better, as were british in 1940, but the germans won by use of excellent tactical decisions.
the availability of kits i think is the biggest factor. people can only buy the kits that are on the market, and as long as these sell, then the manufacturers will make more. so its a vicious circle really.
just my opinion
cheers
joe
i think the main reasons german armour is so popular are;
availability of kits.(loads of kits of loads of versions)
variety of schemes(different camo schemes etc)
the misguided image of superiority(all allied armys had machines equal if not superior)
the view that the germans had more vehicles and more varients is simply untrue, the allies, particularly US and britain had just as many vehicles and varients. they just arent avaliable in kit form and arent as well known.
fair enough the germans did use a huge number of camoflage schemes, and the main reason for this was none of them worked, so they had to keep changing them! OD worked and was retained.(how many modern vehicles are painted in ambush camo?)
most german equipment could be matched by allied stuff. all of the german victories in the early part of the war were due to superior tactics, not superior kit. as has already been mentioned, french tanks were better, as were british in 1940, but the germans won by use of excellent tactical decisions.
the availability of kits i think is the biggest factor. people can only buy the kits that are on the market, and as long as these sell, then the manufacturers will make more. so its a vicious circle really.
just my opinion
cheers
joe
APbullet
Joined: October 21, 2003
KitMaker: 236 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, March 05, 2004 - 01:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
fair enough the germans did use a huge number of camoflage schemes, and the main reason for this was none of them worked, so they had to keep changing them! OD worked and was retained.(how many modern vehicles are painted in ambush camo?)
Well mayby it didn't work on the vehicles but it worked on the SS-uniforms. The German army of today still uses a similair pattern for there uniforms.
 |
WEB HOSTING BY
Copyright ©2021 Armorama and Kitmaker Network, a subsidiary of Silver Star Enterprises
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.