Looking at specifically at the German Pak 40, but equally applies to most anti-tank guns.
When opened do the trails open (and possibly lock) to a fixed width or can the crew open them to what ever angle they feel necessary to operate the weapon.
If variable why would you open them wide in some situation and narrow in others - is it just down to the terrain - and what would be best - as wide as possible?
And are the trails independent - can you open the trails to different angles or are they geared so that they open together by the same amount.
Cheers,
Nigel
Hosted by Darren Baker
Anti Tank Gun Trails
nheather
Joined: November 12, 2007
KitMaker: 295 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 03, 2017 - 01:08 PM UTC
GazzaS
#424
Joined: April 23, 2015
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Posted: Friday, November 03, 2017 - 01:24 PM UTC
I served in USMC artillery. I served two towed howitzer systems, the M101 105mm howitzer and the M198 155mm howitzer.
Both had trails that open to one position. There was no partial way to operate the weapon with the trails. I'm sure it could be done in an emergency, but there was no "in-between" way to lock the trails.
Gaz
Both had trails that open to one position. There was no partial way to operate the weapon with the trails. I'm sure it could be done in an emergency, but there was no "in-between" way to lock the trails.
Gaz
Hohenstaufen
Joined: December 13, 2004
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Posted: Friday, November 03, 2017 - 03:39 PM UTC
I believe in the case of the Pak40 that they opened to a fixed angle and that once that angle was reached it automatically also locked the suspension.
nheather
Joined: November 12, 2007
KitMaker: 295 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 03, 2017 - 04:08 PM UTC
Thanks for the replies, that is what I would have thought, if there is an angle that the designers have deemed to give the best stability and operation then the design would enforce that.
But google images do show different splay angles - I dismiss the ones as monuments or in museums because clearly they aren't operational.
But there are still images of Pak 40s being fired with different angles, most two different, one about 60 degrees (30 each side) and the other nearer 90 degrees (45 each side)
But google images do show different splay angles - I dismiss the ones as monuments or in museums because clearly they aren't operational.
But there are still images of Pak 40s being fired with different angles, most two different, one about 60 degrees (30 each side) and the other nearer 90 degrees (45 each side)
nheather
Joined: November 12, 2007
KitMaker: 295 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 03, 2017 - 04:25 PM UTC
A friend has just lent me a book with some technical drawings in.
They show the trails splayed about 65 degrees (32.5 degrees each side).
I imagine that if this is by design for best stability then most ATG trails will splay to a similar angle.
Or another way to look at it for the Pak 40, is the that end of the trails (the spades) sit about twice the width of the wheels on the axle - remember this may only be true for the Pak 40 as it will depend on the length of the trail.
Cheers,
Nigel
They show the trails splayed about 65 degrees (32.5 degrees each side).
I imagine that if this is by design for best stability then most ATG trails will splay to a similar angle.
Or another way to look at it for the Pak 40, is the that end of the trails (the spades) sit about twice the width of the wheels on the axle - remember this may only be true for the Pak 40 as it will depend on the length of the trail.
Cheers,
Nigel
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 03, 2017 - 05:54 PM UTC
Most anti-tank guns (and some field artillery) could be fired in an emergency with the trails closed or opened only enough to release the travel locks. The problem would be that firing the weapon when traversed could overturn the carriage, cause it hop uncontrollably and injure the crew, things like that, so the wide trail spread is desirable.
Locks are needed because the geometry of two trails and the carriage is unstable, even if the spades are dug in. Firing off-center could push the whole carriage and close the trail on one side.
As a rule, trails move independently.
KL
Locks are needed because the geometry of two trails and the carriage is unstable, even if the spades are dug in. Firing off-center could push the whole carriage and close the trail on one side.
As a rule, trails move independently.
KL
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 03, 2017 - 07:25 PM UTC
Be very careful trying to deduce the angle of something from a profile photo. You have to take the camera angle and lens the photographer used. It is probable that at least some of the seemingly deviant angles observed are due to illusions of perspective and not the actual angle of the trails.
nheather
Joined: November 12, 2007
KitMaker: 295 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 03, 2017 - 10:43 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Be very careful trying to deduce the angle of something from a profile photo. You have to take the camera angle and lens the photographer used. It is probable that at least some of the seemingly deviant angles observed are due to illusions of perspective and not the actual angle of the trails.
Thanks, I got my info from technical drawings - a top (or plan) elevation.
Cheers,
Nigel
d6mst0
#453
Joined: August 28, 2016
KitMaker: 1,925 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 03, 2017 - 11:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Most anti-tank guns (and some field artillery) could be fired in an emergency with the trails closed or opened only enough to release the travel locks. The problem would be that firing the weapon when traversed could overturn the carriage, cause it hop uncontrollably and injure the crew, things like that, so the wide trail spread is desirable.
I just watched a video of Pk40 in action in Russia where the tails were only partially opened and several members of the crew were pressing them down as the gun was being fired. At each firing the gun would jump back several feet no matter how hard the crew was pushing against the trails.
varanusk
Managing Editor
Joined: July 04, 2013
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Posted: Friday, November 03, 2017 - 11:57 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I believe in the case of the Pak40 that they opened to a fixed angle and that once that angle was reached it automatically also locked the suspension.
100% correct. We have recently restored one and it works as said. Any other position than fully open does not lock the trails nor the suspension.
Whether it could be (safely) operated or not is another question...
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Saturday, November 04, 2017 - 04:05 PM UTC
Technical plans often will show the whole range of movement, not the proper use of the item. They're not to be trusted for figuring out how it's deployed or used. That's why most user manuals just show scrap views on how to do something and not ful technical schematics.
In all likelihood there were prescribed angles depending on situation with the locked out one being the default. So there was a safety range of operation but recommended minimum and maximum that were well within the full range of motion. Just because it can do that doesn't mean you should.
In all likelihood there were prescribed angles depending on situation with the locked out one being the default. So there was a safety range of operation but recommended minimum and maximum that were well within the full range of motion. Just because it can do that doesn't mean you should.
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