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For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
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Release Originality?
Bravo1102
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Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 03:13 PM UTC

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Every Dragon Tiger has been an update or different variation of a 12 year old kit. Lots of new tooling for variants, but not an all new kit.


Here are the sprues of Dragon's latest Tiger.

The red blocks cover the parts that date back to their first Tiger, #6252



As you can see, the hull, the turret, the wheels and tracks are all more recent than 6252. I don't see how that can be the same "old kit".

David

I knew you couldn't let it alone. You're missing the point. My point is it is not a completely new tooled kit but new parts with re tooled and tweaked bits added to a pre-existing mold.

Look at the listings in Scalemates. I used that as my guide. New tool is new tool from the ground up but new parts and tweaked is not new tool. New and improved variant but not new tool.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 03:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text


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Every Dragon Tiger has been an update or different variation of a 12 year old kit. Lots of new tooling for variants, but not an all new kit.


Here are the sprues of Dragon's latest Tiger.

The red blocks cover the parts that date back to their first Tiger, #6252



As you can see, the hull, the turret, the wheels and tracks are all more recent than 6252. I don't see how that can be the same "old kit".

David

I knew you couldn't let it alone. You're missing the point. My point is it is not a completely new tooled kit but new parts with re tooled and tweaked bits added to a pre-existing mold.

Look at the listings in Scalemates. I used that as my guide. New tool is new tool from the ground up but new parts and tweaked is not new tool. New and improved variant but not new tool.


New tool - add some & remove some - add some - add some more - rework/replace some - add some - remove/replace some - et.c.
How much would need to be replaced in each "generation" to call it a new kit?
/ Robin
The_musings_of_NBNoG
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Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 03:31 PM UTC
What is a new kit: if these are our internal measures ? ;

To be built now; AFV kits..... Not held back by un-started; un-finished, a surfer of the "Build to Finnish". Gonna buy that fashion accessory and 'Make it Work'

To be built soon; ..purse's, shoes,
and un-built AFV kits..... the optimist of subject enjoyment and additional kits are there "to fullfill options of needed details, also: kit optimisim".

To be built when all the extras are collected;..blue jeans/ patches, with a rinestone kit,
and un-built AFV kits..... the optimist of subject enjoyment and additional details are there "to be an as yet un-fullfilled kit optimisim".

1) Kits
-
2) Kits with Interior
-
3) Kits with exterior
....Vehicle Transporter
....Vehicle repair
....Vehicle with integrated ""Item"" - ie..scud
-
4) Kit ~ "extremis"

Br52 Kriegslocomotive pulling a German Railway Gun
Leopold with all the assorted PE

Two German Panzerlok BR.57 Armoured Locomotive with Two ore tandems pulling,Two Panzertragerwagen with Tanks and Two German Army Cannon Railcarwith pulling a 80cm Dora Railway Gun with all the assorted PE for all.

M4A3 Sherman pulled by a U.S. 40 Ton Tank
Transporter "Dragon Wagon" with all the assorted PE

Tiger 1 with interior pulled by a German 18 Ton
Heavy Half-Track Famo and Tank Transporter Sd.Ah.116
with all the assorted PE

T-54 with interior pulled by a KRAZ-260V w/ Trailer
with all the assorted PE

BMPT w/ added engine pulled by a Ukraine KRAZ-6446
Tractor w/Trailer with all the assorted PE

Leopard2A7 w/ added engine pulled by a Faun Elefant
SLT56 with all the assorted PE

T-72B/B1 MBT w/Kontakt-1 pulled by a Maz-537G
with all the assorted PE

M1A1 with interior with added MBV pulled by a
M1070 with all the assorted PE

M1132 Stryker ESV
(trumpeter..(the lowest cost to part ratio)
- with added PE Slat, pulled by a M1070 with all the assorted add-ons (engine/+/transmission/resin, add on armor/PE and assorted tie-downs).


guni-kid
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Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 04:27 PM UTC

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[...]

Br52 Kriegslocomotive pulling a German Railway Gun
Leopold with all the assorted PE

Two German Panzerlok BR.57 Armoured Locomotive with Two ore tandems pulling,Two Panzertragerwagen with Tanks and Two German Army Cannon Railcarwith pulling a 80cm Dora Railway Gun with all the assorted PE for all.

M4A3 Sherman pulled by a U.S. 40 Ton Tank
Transporter "Dragon Wagon" with all the assorted PE

Tiger 1 with interior pulled by a German 18 Ton
Heavy Half-Track Famo and Tank Transporter Sd.Ah.116
with all the assorted PE

T-54 with interior pulled by a KRAZ-260V w/ Trailer
with all the assorted PE

BMPT w/ added engine pulled by a Ukraine KRAZ-6446
Tractor w/Trailer with all the assorted PE

Leopard2A7 w/ added engine pulled by a Faun Elefant
SLT56 with all the assorted PE

T-72B/B1 MBT w/Kontakt-1 pulled by a Maz-537G
with all the assorted PE

M1A1 with interior with added MBV pulled by a
M1070 with all the assorted PE

M1132 Stryker ESV
(trumpeter..(the lowest cost to part ratio)
- with added PE Slat, pulled by a M1070 with all the assorted add-ons (engine/+/transmission/resin, add on armor/PE and assorted tie-downs).




Eeeeeeyyy, you forgot:

Scammels pulling Crusader Guntractor and gun tank;

M19 Tank Transporter pulling an M4 High Speed Tractor;

Hanomag SS100 pulling a fully set up V2 rocket;

[add more here if you please]


I mean seriously, most of us spending time here in the forums and posting about "wants" and "to-haves" have stashes that last several livetimes and there are more kits out there readily available I would buy in an instant if I only had the space for them. With the perspective of probably never ever being built by me (because it is just too (no: toooooo) much hiding in my stash). So yes, we can wish for special kits to come out in plastic, but I for myself can say with a good conscience: There will never ever be a time I will get bored by not having enough kit choices.

Let's be honest: Some of us sometimes behave worse than small kids when it comes to modelling: The more we get, the more we demand and it will never end, not matter what the companies do. So my advice: relax and enjoy screening your stash for what all great kits you have in there to find your next build...
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 06:20 PM UTC

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......
.....
Let's be honest: Some of us sometimes behave worse than small kids when it comes to modelling: The more we get, the more we demand and it will never end, not matter what the companies do. So my advice: relax and enjoy screening your stash for what all great kits you have in there to find your next build...


Who needs a local hobby store when checking the stash is like visiting a medium sized hobby shop
With the words of Freddie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFDcoX7s6rE

/ Robin
guni-kid
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Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 06:41 PM UTC

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......
.....
Let's be honest: Some of us sometimes behave worse than small kids when it comes to modelling: The more we get, the more we demand and it will never end, not matter what the companies do. So my advice: relax and enjoy screening your stash for what all great kits you have in there to find your next build...


Who needs a local hobby store when checking the stash is like visiting a medium sized hobby shop
With the words of Freddie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFDcoX7s6rE

/ Robin


That's what I'm talking about!
Bravo1102
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Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 06:52 PM UTC

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Every Dragon Tiger has been an update or different variation of a 12 year old kit. Lots of new tooling for variants, but not an all new kit.


Here are the sprues of Dragon's latest Tiger.

The red blocks cover the parts that date back to their first Tiger, #6252



As you can see, the hull, the turret, the wheels and tracks are all more recent than 6252. I don't see how that can be the same "old kit".

David

I knew you couldn't let it alone. You're missing the point. My point is it is not a completely new tooled kit but new parts with re tooled and tweaked bits added to a pre-existing mold.

Look at the listings in Scalemates. I used that as my guide. New tool is new tool from the ground up but new parts and tweaked is not new tool. New and improved variant but not new tool.


New tool - add some & remove some - add some - add some more - rework/replace some - add some - remove/replace some - et.c.
How much would need to be replaced in each "generation" to call it a new kit?
/ Robin


Okay so Dragon is reinventing their Tiger with X number of tweaks. But still outside of them and venerable Tamiya kits and tweaked Academy there really are no other choices and I say there is room for more Tigers. (Some companies sadly don't count even if I do have their attempt in the stash.

Let every company do a Tiger, get it out of their system. I suffered through two Italeri kits and kicking myself I didn't shell out for something else.

And for some reason. I want to do more Tiger variants and another Panther A because the one I have is also an Italeri kit.

If they sell and give people choice, go for it. Maybe if they sell a ton of Tigers someone will do a rarity. ICM may be funding their oddball softskins by doing the Tiger II.

But not enough M3 Stuarts. Or even M3 halftracks or light Panzers. How about someone else pump out some Pzkpfw I and II?
reteip9
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Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 07:31 PM UTC
The way I see it most of the new panther kits aren't even in direct competition with the each other or older kits either through price or available options.
Meng Panther A: Costs around €40 which makes it more expensive than the Tamiya and Italeri kits but this one's probably far more detailed and accurate, Dragon Ausf A is nigh impossible to find in shops over here and a new release from Dragon would probably be ~€70 or so, also this kit gives an option to build a Befehlspanther which as far as I know nobody else has done.
Takom Panther A: as far as I know first Panther A kit with a full interior
Ryefield Panther Ausf G: as far as I know first Panther G kit with a full interior.
If you look past the Panther label and really look at what's inside the box then you'll see that each kit offers something the other doesn't wich is probably why I'll buy all three.
Jmarles
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Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 10:55 PM UTC
Hobby Boss just announced some FAV dune buggy thing and the third or fourth FB comment was "Can you do this other one instead?"!

Modellers are never happy!
barrowb98
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Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 11:55 PM UTC

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Every Dragon Tiger has been an update or different variation of a 12 year old kit. Lots of new tooling for variants, but not an all new kit.


Here are the sprues of Dragon's latest Tiger.

The red blocks cover the parts that date back to their first Tiger, #6252



As you can see, the hull, the turret, the wheels and tracks are all more recent than 6252. I don't see how that can be the same "old kit".

David

I knew you couldn't let it alone. You're missing the point. My point is it is not a completely new tooled kit but new parts with re tooled and tweaked bits added to a pre-existing mold.

Look at the listings in Scalemates. I used that as my guide. New tool is new tool from the ground up but new parts and tweaked is not new tool. New and improved variant but not new tool.


New tool - add some & remove some - add some - add some more - rework/replace some - add some - remove/replace some - et.c.
How much would need to be replaced in each "generation" to call it a new kit?
/ Robin

Ah yes, the old Ship of Theseus paradox-

"The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned from Crete had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their places, in so much that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same."
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 12:50 AM UTC
Thanks for the Theseus paradox!
This has filled a hole in my education

I was thinking about another story about someones great-great ....great grandfathers old axe. It had been handed down through the generations. Some times the handle got replaced, another time the head was reforged with some fresh steel to replace the metal that had been ground away by use and sharpening. Once the whole head was replaced but it was still the same old axe At least the "essence" of the axe was the same ...
Oh well, we are all made up of the "dust" from some exploding supernova anyway
/ Robin
babaoriley
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 03:36 AM UTC
The thought of yet another Tiger or Panther bores me to tears. I got over "panzer fever" and now I'd much rather build something else, from a different nation and/or a different era. However, these days I can easily do that, I can buy kits of an astonishing range of vehicles that once upon a time would have to have been scratch-built or at least heavily modified. Now they're off-the-shelf kits with super-detail PE/resin upgrade packages available from accessory makers. So since my modelling interests are largely being met then I have no problem with the industry also releasing more Tigers and Panthers to meet the never-ending demand for panzers, panzers, panzers. I want those model companies to remain profitable so they're around to produce kits in which I have more of an interest.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 05:32 AM UTC

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Ah yes, the old Ship of Theseus paradox-

"The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned from Crete had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their places, in so much that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same."


A more modern example: In the first half of the 20th Century the tax laws were such that it was decidedly more advantageous for American railroads to repair the rolling stock than replace it. Some railroads performed very extensive repairs, often completely stripping away the wooden structure above the metal frame and replacing it with an all-metal one, replacing the couplers, brakes, wheels, and trucks, and keeping the result on the register as the same car. One writer described it as "They jacked the painted-on car number up off the body and rolled a new boxcar underneath."

KL
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 05:40 AM UTC

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. . . I agree that there are gaps which people in my situation (time and cash poor) would prefer to see filled . . .


However, as time goes on those gaps are getting smaller, and more importantly, so are the number of potential customers for the subjects. If you have only 100 people worldwide are interested in the subject, it's hard to justify a kit production effort.


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As it stands now, we really are only getting what they want to give us.


That's one way to look at it, but you could also say they are only interested in giving us kits that they think won't kill their company. Can you blame them for doing that?

KL
Jmarles
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 07:44 AM UTC
At least things are getting more varied. Sure, there's a few tigers and panthers but we also have a tonne of modern stuff from Trumpeter, HB, DML,Miniart, Takom and Meng, etc. FAV, T55, Patriot, a bunch of Russian stuff, etc. Thunder, IBG and Mirror are sure treating the allied world pretty good. AFV club is usually good for releasing cool stuff (albeit a bit slowly).
Bravo1102
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 01:41 PM UTC

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At least things are getting more varied. Sure, there's a few tigers and panthers but we also have a tonne of modern stuff from Trumpeter, HB, DML,Miniart, Takom and Meng, etc. FAV, T55, Patriot, a bunch of Russian stuff, etc. Thunder, IBG and Mirror are sure treating the allied world pretty good. AFV club is usually good for releasing cool stuff (albeit a bit slowly).


Tiger variations are so well documented that companies just have to do early, mid, late meaning that we seemingly get three kits for Tigers every time as opposed to one Crusader or Valentine or Turan. But at least now we have kits of the early cruiser tanks and several variations of Toldi and Turan and whole line-ups of T-54/55. Dragon's endless parade of Tiger production variants has been buried lately under Miniart's progression of T-54/55 production variants.

In the end it's perception rather than reality. Some if us are tuned to pay attention to every Panzer release and gripe about it whereas every other release gets no notice. I'm waiting for the "what not another T-55!" complaints to start.

Because no matter what is released two things are always true: someone will find fault with the kit's accuracy and someone will bemoan the choice of subject. Every time without fail both comments appear.

As for AFV club being slow? They actually bother to get it right. Not very often you hear about some tiny glitch in their often delayed new releases just that there aren't enough of them. I wonder how many AFV club Churchills or Centurions were bought compared to the Tigers and Panthers. Like to see numbers on that. Probably more of each Dragon variation is purchased than the whole slew of Churchills combined.
(Please no remarks on competitive sexiness. People who talk about panzers as so sexy have a shelf full of Panzer books and never even took a backwards glance at anything else. Its like comparing the relative merits of anything. A Tiger is the big brassy blonde and the Churchill is the little Latina to use one easily envisioned example)
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 01:54 PM UTC

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.....
I wonder how many AFV club Churchills or Centurions were bought compared to the Tigers and Panthers. Like to see numbers on that. Probably more of each Dragon variation is purchased than the whole slew of Churchills combined.


I bought one of each of the Churchills and more than one of each of the Centurions, to build OOB and with conversions from Legend or Accurate Armour. I think I "need" a few more of the so called NATO version but I'm not quite sure.
One thing is certain though, the Tigers make up less than 1% of my stash
/ Robin
guni-kid
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 02:32 PM UTC
Looks like we're coming to a point, where agreement outways disagreement, i. e.: We see a ton of Panzers and it's going on, some of us like it and see it as justified, especially if you take the companies perspective. On the other hand there are enough of us getting bored by it but having tons (yes, plural this time!) of alternatives to go by...

So I guess everyone could be happy: We have literally hundreds of different kits out there very well crafted and interesting enough to keep us busy for several lifetimes and yet, we still have lots of opportunities to bemoan the still missing!
Bravo1102
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 02:47 PM UTC

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.....
I wonder how many AFV club Churchills or Centurions were bought compared to the Tigers and Panthers. Like to see numbers on that. Probably more of each Dragon variation is purchased than the whole slew of Churchills combined.


I bought one of each of the Churchills and more than one of each of the Centurions, to build OOB and with conversions from Legend or Accurate Armour. I think I "need" a few more of the so called NATO version but I'm not quite sure.
One thing is certain though, the Tigers make up less than 1% of my stash
/ Robin

With more than 400 kits in my stash, Tigers make up about 1% of mine. To show my priorities, I have 5 Tiger I kits and 2 Tiger 2, but nearly 20 Napoleonic hussar figures.

But as bad as we think it is with tanks, the airplane guys have it worse. Just how many P-51D kits do you need?
Jmarles
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 02:56 PM UTC
Yep there's always someone complaining lol. Yesh AFV have some really nice stuff. I was lucky enough to grab some used but still "new" ones for $20 each - the Churchill AVRE and the Centurion with bulldozer. The Churchill running gear is insane! We certainly are spoiled these days but we will still complain. Maybe it keeps the manufacturers on their toes..who knows. It seems my stash is growing even though I promised myself no more kits! I get scared every time I go to my Scalemates stash manager now!
tanknick22
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 04:08 PM UTC

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.....
I wonder how many AFV club Churchills or Centurions were bought compared to the Tigers and Panthers. Like to see numbers on that. Probably more of each Dragon variation is purchased than the whole slew of Churchills combined.


I bought one of each of the Churchills and more than one of each of the Centurions, to build OOB and with conversions from Legend or Accurate Armour. I think I "need" a few more of the so called NATO version but I'm not quite sure.
One thing is certain though, the Tigers make up less than 1% of my stash
/ Robin

With more than 400 kits in my stash, Tigers make up about 1% of mine. To show my priorities, I have 5 Tiger I kits and 2 Tiger 2, but nearly 20 Napoleonic hussar figures.

But as bad as we think it is with tanks, the airplane guys have it worse. Just how many P-51D kits do you need?



I have one tiger in my collection thats all I need i dont care
how many new Tgers or Panthers or M3 Lee?Grants come out I want to see more modern US stuff
as for the airplane guys they have a fetish for the BF109 and FW190
and the comapnies keep pumping them out too
barnsley
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 05:34 PM UTC
Well some one is buying all those Tiggers and Panthers
Me 109 Spits and Zeros are selling
But a lot is down to brand loyalty
People like a particular brand Trumpeter Meng Takom Tamiya and will buy their products so if they do a Tiger Panther it will sell
Bravo1102
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 06:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text



I have one tiger in my collection thats all I need i dont care
how many new Tgers or Panthers or M3 Lee?Grants come out I want to see more modern US stuff
as for the airplane guys they have a fetish for the BF109 and FW190
and the comapnies keep pumping them out too

Trumpeter is pumping out the softskins and how many M1A2 do we need? New M113 and updated M109 and all the mine resistant stuff -- I have five Tigers for different variants and markings, the same reason I have 3 Sheridans and 5 M48's and 8 M60's. I have 2 M41's, 3 M3 Lee's, 3 Grants ( again different variants) so no myopia or blinders on my collecting. I like putting the variations next to each other to show how the same vehicle changes over time.

But P-51D? One variant of a series, very little variation during production. A Me109G-6 is more different from a Me109G-14 but P-51D is a P-51D. Two variations.
Tail vane and canopy. Most kits come with them in the box so not even a need of two different boxings. (There are other variations but you really need to look close to see them. Its not like the different cupola, wheels and storage between Tigers or the gun tubes, turrets and sights on M60s or even the gun positions and tails between B-17Gs!)

And every company that makes 1/48 jets has to have a F-4C/D? Every time I turn around yet another boxing or all new Phantom.
Jmarles
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 11:02 PM UTC
Also if you look at the big picture instead of your own ethnocentric view on what you like (I have one tiger and don't care about anymore...give me more modern stuff..)
How do you think Dragon can afford to make an M48 bridgelayer or a new(ish) patriot? That's right. By selling hundreds of thousands of stugs, panthers, jagdpanthers, tigers, jagdtigers, panzer I, II and IIIs, marders, jagdpanzers etc.
babaoriley
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Posted: Thursday, December 14, 2017 - 12:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I wonder how many AFV club Churchills or Centurions were bought compared to the Tigers and Panthers. Like to see numbers on that.

I'd love to see that too, but the model companies no doubt regard sales figures as secret business info and are not about to share it with their competitors. But it would be interesting to know what it costs to bring a new kit to market, how many they have to sell to break even and then turn a profit, what the big sellers are, which kits bombed and were considered failures and so on.

Profitability aside, professional pride must be a factor too. I have to think that at least some of the folks running these companies get a warm glow when their new kit receives rave reviews from the various websites and magazines, it can't all be under the control of the bean-counters. Of course if the highly-reviewed kit fails to sell and loses money I'm sure that is discussed at length at the next managerial meeting.
 _GOTOTOP