Starting to wonder what is going on in the modelling world, it seems we are about see a slew of newly tooled Panther kits on the way, including a new announcement this morning from Rye Field. Also I saw that Miniart is now jumping on the M3 Lee/Grant bandwagen. And it was not that long ago where we saw a slew of newly tooled King Tigers.
With all the subjects still not covered in plastic, why are companies looking to copy each other?
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SgtRam
Contributing Writer
#197
Joined: March 06, 2011
KitMaker: 3,971 posts
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Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 - 05:10 PM UTC
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 - 05:22 PM UTC
Look at the number of Tiger and King Tiger kits that came out last year. They go with what sales and cats will always sale.
JohnTapsell
Joined: August 24, 2011
KitMaker: 227 posts
Armorama: 226 posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 - 05:24 PM UTC
Because they see a chance to grab a piece of the market.
Model companies are commercial enterprises, just like any other industry. Those companies are interested in making money rather than filling gaps in the pantheon of the armoured vehicle kits. The model industry is booming globally and there is an appetite for new kits in markets across the world - companies will produce what will sell in large numbers rather than satisfy the more specialised tastes of 'serious' modellers (as opposed the majority of kit buyers who are casual builders).
There are far too many TVs and smartphones on the market - we don't 'need' any more of them but the market is big enough to accommodate new entrants so new players continue to appear and copy each other.
Regards,
John
Model companies are commercial enterprises, just like any other industry. Those companies are interested in making money rather than filling gaps in the pantheon of the armoured vehicle kits. The model industry is booming globally and there is an appetite for new kits in markets across the world - companies will produce what will sell in large numbers rather than satisfy the more specialised tastes of 'serious' modellers (as opposed the majority of kit buyers who are casual builders).
There are far too many TVs and smartphones on the market - we don't 'need' any more of them but the market is big enough to accommodate new entrants so new players continue to appear and copy each other.
Regards,
John
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 - 05:50 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Starting to wonder what is going on in the modelling world, it seems we are about see a slew of newly tooled Panther kits on the way, including a new announcement this morning from Rye Field. Also I saw that Miniart is now jumping on the M3 Lee/Grant bandwagen. And it was not that long ago where we saw a slew of newly tooled King Tigers.
With all the subjects still not covered in plastic, why are companies looking to copy each other?
It may seem like "everyone" and their inlaws are releasing new Panthers, Tigers, Abrams, M113, M60, M48, Magach, T-55/62/64/72/84/90, Merkava, softskins, Armata, AML-60/90, Patriot systems, THAAD, Russian rocket launchers, tracked SCUD, M31 TRV, CV-90 variants (and THAT was unexpected!), M-270 variants, Iskander, Bereg, S-300 launchers and radar systems, Csaba, ADGZ, obscure 1920's-1930's Soviet tanks, more softskins, civilian vehicles, technicals, soviet trucks, WW I tanks and guns, tank transporters, early British armour et.c.
Which serious modeler can put up with this narrow selection for ever? Is it time to start scratch building?
Swedish armour and trucks from the period 1915 to 2000 is still missing and there was some armour produced in South America as well. A lot of the French armour, US trucks, British vehicles and many engineer vehicles are still missing as well so the manufacturers REALLY need to get their acts together and start producing some of the really significant and interesting vehicles.
My microscopic fraction of a Bitcoin (two cents)
/ Robin
ericadeane
Joined: October 28, 2002
KitMaker: 4,021 posts
Armorama: 3,947 posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 - 05:56 PM UTC
It's quite obvious and simple. Rye Fields Models makes no money when a DML Panther is sold.
As for "filling in the gaps" of oddball subjects that haven't been previously covered or not updated, again -- it's a financial decision.
With the capital at hand, how do you allocate? Do you produce another Pz IV and reap in more revenue for future business cycles versus how much money/time you can sink into getting out an M103 Super Heavy tank, for instance. And if you find that examples and/or research docs are scares, then what?
As for "filling in the gaps" of oddball subjects that haven't been previously covered or not updated, again -- it's a financial decision.
With the capital at hand, how do you allocate? Do you produce another Pz IV and reap in more revenue for future business cycles versus how much money/time you can sink into getting out an M103 Super Heavy tank, for instance. And if you find that examples and/or research docs are scares, then what?
ubermensche
Joined: January 05, 2014
KitMaker: 22 posts
Armorama: 20 posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 - 06:15 PM UTC
Quoted Text
There are far too many TVs and smartphones on the market - we don't 'need' any more of them but the market is big enough to accommodate new entrants so new players continue to appear and copy each other.
I don't know how accurate that comparison is. The things is that after 2-3 years, your phone starts showing obsolescence: it's getting slower, it can't update to new apps, etc, etc, so getting a new one someone becomes a necessity.
But once I finish building a my Tiger, it just stays on the shelf for decoration purposes. And unless people are hardcore Panzer nuts, they probably won't get the 4th new Dragon Tiger Wittmann 1943 edition and the RFM Tiger just because.
Kaktusas
Joined: April 12, 2017
KitMaker: 196 posts
Armorama: 196 posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 - 07:06 PM UTC
I think its great. The more choice we got, the better prices we will get. They make kits that will sell, that's it. There will always be tons of kits that will be never released in plastic, because only 10 buyers will find it interesting.
If i would pick all kits i realy want to build now (i mean realy realy), that would be at least 10 years worth stash. So i never run into problems like there is no specific tank model on the market, i have nothing to build
If i would pick all kits i realy want to build now (i mean realy realy), that would be at least 10 years worth stash. So i never run into problems like there is no specific tank model on the market, i have nothing to build
firstcircle
Joined: November 19, 2008
KitMaker: 2,249 posts
Armorama: 2,007 posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 - 07:48 PM UTC
There are some manufacturers that aren't following the well-beaten path.
For example, it's not the biggest range, but look at IBG's 1/35 scale catalogue here:1/35
They don't have a Tiger or a Panther, but for German fans they do have a Einheitsdiesel Kfz.61 Fernsprechbetriebskraftwagen ..., OK, so some but not too much armour, more trucks.
In the smaller scale they even have some Swedish armour, as well as Hungarian and Japanese.
And clearly they are still following the pattern of creating sprues that can form the basis of multiple variants, so even with more "unusual" vehicles it isn't necessarily a blind alley.
So I guess their behaviour can be reinforced by punters buying and building them. Just to pick an example I noticed (while reviewing IBG's Turan this week) is that after Darren posted a review of Bronco's 1/35 Turan in May, I haven't seen anyone blogging or doing a feature on that kit on here, though perhaps I am wrong. (I suspect the majority of 1/35 kits that are sold are never finished in any case
)
For example, it's not the biggest range, but look at IBG's 1/35 scale catalogue here:1/35
They don't have a Tiger or a Panther, but for German fans they do have a Einheitsdiesel Kfz.61 Fernsprechbetriebskraftwagen ..., OK, so some but not too much armour, more trucks.
In the smaller scale they even have some Swedish armour, as well as Hungarian and Japanese.
And clearly they are still following the pattern of creating sprues that can form the basis of multiple variants, so even with more "unusual" vehicles it isn't necessarily a blind alley.
So I guess their behaviour can be reinforced by punters buying and building them. Just to pick an example I noticed (while reviewing IBG's Turan this week) is that after Darren posted a review of Bronco's 1/35 Turan in May, I haven't seen anyone blogging or doing a feature on that kit on here, though perhaps I am wrong. (I suspect the majority of 1/35 kits that are sold are never finished in any case
)
barrowb98
Joined: April 20, 2015
KitMaker: 119 posts
Armorama: 119 posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 - 08:10 PM UTC
Why do they seem to duplicate each other? The development time for a new model can take several years and in that time your competitors can come to the same decision you made regarding subject matter. The model world is rather small, we all hear from the same customers, so we hear the same suggestions and complaints. Sometimes you come to the same conclusion independently of each other. Rumors go around pretty easily in the model world so they have a pretty good idea of what their competition is up to so sometimes you come to the same conclusion not so independently.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 - 08:14 PM UTC
Honestly after ten years without a new Lee and so many bemoaning the lack of one, we have two companies going for it ...
The last new Ausf A panther was Dragon 10 years ago and before that Italeri 24 years ago. So is it really a rush? It was the Panther D that we got four kits of in a few years (ICM, Zvezda, Dragon, Tamiya). Dragon's Panther G are somewhat recent and The only other company is Tamiya from 20 plus years ago.
We should all take a step back and look at Scalemates and see that outside of last year's slew of King Tigers most of the kits we think are all over are really ancient. Outside of Dragon; Academy and Tamiya have Tiger I. Academy's got an update a couple of years ago, Tamiya' s are from the 1990s, and RFM saw an opening to do a more specific variant than Academy or Tamiya. And now Trumpeter will do an all new kit. It'll be the only second all new Tiger I since 2005. (Every Dragon Tiger has been an update or different variation of a 12 year old kit. Lots of new tooling for variants, but not an all new kit.)
If we go with the phone and TV analogy, the technology makes stuff obsolete almost the moment you enter all your phone numbers into your brand new phone. So were not seeing lots of companies copying each other so much as replacing obsolete kits.
And I know I will see tons of Tiger and Panthers before I see one Turan.
Now Takom and Miniart, M3 Stuart. Russian lend lease M3 Stuart...
The last new Ausf A panther was Dragon 10 years ago and before that Italeri 24 years ago. So is it really a rush? It was the Panther D that we got four kits of in a few years (ICM, Zvezda, Dragon, Tamiya). Dragon's Panther G are somewhat recent and The only other company is Tamiya from 20 plus years ago.
We should all take a step back and look at Scalemates and see that outside of last year's slew of King Tigers most of the kits we think are all over are really ancient. Outside of Dragon; Academy and Tamiya have Tiger I. Academy's got an update a couple of years ago, Tamiya' s are from the 1990s, and RFM saw an opening to do a more specific variant than Academy or Tamiya. And now Trumpeter will do an all new kit. It'll be the only second all new Tiger I since 2005. (Every Dragon Tiger has been an update or different variation of a 12 year old kit. Lots of new tooling for variants, but not an all new kit.)
If we go with the phone and TV analogy, the technology makes stuff obsolete almost the moment you enter all your phone numbers into your brand new phone. So were not seeing lots of companies copying each other so much as replacing obsolete kits.
And I know I will see tons of Tiger and Panthers before I see one Turan.
Now Takom and Miniart, M3 Stuart. Russian lend lease M3 Stuart...
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 - 08:16 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextStarting to wonder what is going on in the modelling world, it seems we are about see a slew of newly tooled Panther kits on the way, including a new announcement this morning from Rye Field. Also I saw that Miniart is now jumping on the M3 Lee/Grant bandwagen. And it was not that long ago where we saw a slew of newly tooled King Tigers.
With all the subjects still not covered in plastic, why are companies looking to copy each other?
It may seem like "everyone" and their inlaws are releasing new Panthers, Tigers, Abrams, M113, M60, M48, Magach, T-55/62/64/72/84/90, Merkava, softskins, Armata, AML-60/90, Patriot systems, THAAD, Russian rocket launchers, tracked SCUD, M31 TRV, CV-90 variants (and THAT was unexpected!), M-270 variants, Iskander, Bereg, S-300 launchers and radar systems, Csaba, ADGZ, obscure 1920's-1930's Soviet tanks, more softskins, civilian vehicles, technicals, soviet trucks, WW I tanks and guns, tank transporters, early British armour et.c.
Which serious modeler can put up with this narrow selection for ever? Is it time to start scratch building?
Swedish armour and trucks from the period 1915 to 2000 is still missing and there was some armour produced in South America as well. A lot of the French armour, US trucks, British vehicles and many engineer vehicles are still missing as well so the manufacturers REALLY need to get their acts together and start producing some of the really significant and interesting vehicles.
My microscopic fraction of a Bitcoin (two cents)
/ Robin
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 - 11:47 PM UTC
In addition to Roy's and John's thoughts above (purely commercial reasons) being the primary reasons, this:
will not dissuade a company from making a new version. I bet that for every tiger model built, there are 15 in people's stashes waiting for "the right time".
And while those kits wait, if a better model comes along, we will buy it and plan to build that one instead.
I am not a collector, but I do have about 300 kits in the stash. Not being a collector, I have no compunctions in swapping out a new, better kit for an older one if a new one comes along. I have gotten rid of Heller AMX 13s, Tamiya Lees, Grants and Stuarts (shouldn't have done that, of course). I will now get rid of my Academy Lee. I dumped resin STRV103 and C15TA kits. All because new ones came along.
That's the market for these new kits of older subjects. Even if nominally very well served.
Quoted Text
But once I finish building a my Tiger, it just stays on the shelf for decoration purposes.
will not dissuade a company from making a new version. I bet that for every tiger model built, there are 15 in people's stashes waiting for "the right time".
And while those kits wait, if a better model comes along, we will buy it and plan to build that one instead.
I am not a collector, but I do have about 300 kits in the stash. Not being a collector, I have no compunctions in swapping out a new, better kit for an older one if a new one comes along. I have gotten rid of Heller AMX 13s, Tamiya Lees, Grants and Stuarts (shouldn't have done that, of course). I will now get rid of my Academy Lee. I dumped resin STRV103 and C15TA kits. All because new ones came along.
That's the market for these new kits of older subjects. Even if nominally very well served.
petbat
Joined: August 06, 2005
KitMaker: 3,353 posts
Armorama: 3,121 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 01:23 AM UTC
There are 2 very simple reasons:
1) A proven sales market for a product shows almost assured profits; Sex sells and the market says a Panther or Tiger or M1 is sexy.
2) Modellers are like anyone else, 'if it is shiny and new - it will be mine'.
The pure cost to tool up a new kit is considerable and the retail price to recover that has to be factored in. Too high and you will only have a small market that will pay it; too low and you may never recover it sufficiently. Can your capital sustain your production and recovery - Tristar is but one example.
The list of vehicles that could be produced is huge. But the manufacturers need to be assured of a long enough market penetration to recoup outlays and move to profit. That is no longer possible with the number of manufacturers in competition. Therefore most will err to what they know will sell, based on history not the desires as posted on forums.
In the 70's, for 1/35th scale you had Tamiya and Italeri dominating the AFV scene. There were minor players (Heller, Lindburg, etc) but the shops were full of Big T and Brother I kits. They had an easy 10 plus years life on a mould, simply because they were the only players in the market. They paid for themselves over and over adding profit to capital reserves. Their range of kits produced was therefore huge and sustainable.
The risk now is someone will bring a similar vehicle out soon after you do, and undercut your sales, or they may beat you to the punch... so produce something you know will sell at quantity, even with the completion - and keep the price to market.
As to shiny and new -
How many unbuilt kits end up on Ebay or at swap meets after a newer kit is released? I know guys that have several kits of the same vehicle in variants and still buy the new kit on the block....
It does not matter how many other manufacturers have engineered a kit, new is seen as better, even if sometimes it is not. If there is a gimmick in it, it is desirable.
Take the current Miniart and Meng trend to issue tanks with interiors...which you can not see much of through the hatches. The full potential is only realised if it is depicted as knocked out with turret off, a situation few modellers actually depict,.... yet they are selling like the proverbial hot cakes.
When an odd ball kit is produced, it is a risk if there is a long term market or not. You will get a first run spike, but how much longer will it run? What price do you sell at? Here in Australia A retailer will sell a Tamiya Dragon Wagon with Trailer or Famo with Trailer for around $260 - 300 AUD. You see them at Swap meets for around $80-$100 AUD. The Thunder Model Scammell with trailer was just $75 AUD last week from my local pusher and fellow club member.
Big T does not sell so many of these transporter kits at their price any more, but they made their money. Thunder at a much lesser price is working volume over profit and the way they are running off the shelf has tapped a market.... but for how long before the market that has interest in it has gone? Shiny and new... (and bloody good too, tyre tread notwithstanding)
1) A proven sales market for a product shows almost assured profits; Sex sells and the market says a Panther or Tiger or M1 is sexy.
2) Modellers are like anyone else, 'if it is shiny and new - it will be mine'.
The pure cost to tool up a new kit is considerable and the retail price to recover that has to be factored in. Too high and you will only have a small market that will pay it; too low and you may never recover it sufficiently. Can your capital sustain your production and recovery - Tristar is but one example.
The list of vehicles that could be produced is huge. But the manufacturers need to be assured of a long enough market penetration to recoup outlays and move to profit. That is no longer possible with the number of manufacturers in competition. Therefore most will err to what they know will sell, based on history not the desires as posted on forums.
In the 70's, for 1/35th scale you had Tamiya and Italeri dominating the AFV scene. There were minor players (Heller, Lindburg, etc) but the shops were full of Big T and Brother I kits. They had an easy 10 plus years life on a mould, simply because they were the only players in the market. They paid for themselves over and over adding profit to capital reserves. Their range of kits produced was therefore huge and sustainable.
The risk now is someone will bring a similar vehicle out soon after you do, and undercut your sales, or they may beat you to the punch... so produce something you know will sell at quantity, even with the completion - and keep the price to market.
As to shiny and new -
How many unbuilt kits end up on Ebay or at swap meets after a newer kit is released? I know guys that have several kits of the same vehicle in variants and still buy the new kit on the block....
It does not matter how many other manufacturers have engineered a kit, new is seen as better, even if sometimes it is not. If there is a gimmick in it, it is desirable.
Take the current Miniart and Meng trend to issue tanks with interiors...which you can not see much of through the hatches. The full potential is only realised if it is depicted as knocked out with turret off, a situation few modellers actually depict,.... yet they are selling like the proverbial hot cakes.
When an odd ball kit is produced, it is a risk if there is a long term market or not. You will get a first run spike, but how much longer will it run? What price do you sell at? Here in Australia A retailer will sell a Tamiya Dragon Wagon with Trailer or Famo with Trailer for around $260 - 300 AUD. You see them at Swap meets for around $80-$100 AUD. The Thunder Model Scammell with trailer was just $75 AUD last week from my local pusher and fellow club member.
Big T does not sell so many of these transporter kits at their price any more, but they made their money. Thunder at a much lesser price is working volume over profit and the way they are running off the shelf has tapped a market.... but for how long before the market that has interest in it has gone? Shiny and new... (and bloody good too, tyre tread notwithstanding)
JohnTapsell
Joined: August 24, 2011
KitMaker: 227 posts
Armorama: 226 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 03:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I bet that for every tiger model built, there are 15 in people's stashes waiting for "the right time".
Now there I disagree with you. You are making a classic assumption that all kit builders have stashes.
The vast majority of model buyers are casual builders who buy a Tiger Tank because they take a fancy to it, build it out of the box, in the kit markings and then put it on a shelf. Then they go back to the hobby store (or online retailer) and buy the next kit they fancy, which may be a 1/48 F-16 or a 1/24 Chevy Impala. They don't care about millimetre accuracy, whether it's 'early' or 'late', whether it has the right shaped turret or whatever - they just want to build a Tiger Tank (and anything else that takes their fancy).
Those people represent the mass market that companies are marketing their product line to. That market has probably never heard of half the vehicles we are waiting for in plastic, but they have heard of Tigers, Panthers, Shermans, Abrams and T-34s etc. A manufacturer is rarely going to release a product that has little or no resonance with their primary market.
That's where the majority of kits are sold - not to us weirdos and obsessives who actually like to research our subjects, to compare kits and praise (or curse) the various manufacturers who never seem to release what we (the minority market) seem to feel are so important.
Regards,
John
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 03:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI bet that for every tiger model built, there are 15 in people's stashes waiting for "the right time".
Now there I disagree with you. You are making a classic assumption that all kit builders have stashes.
The vast majority of model buyers are casual builders who buy a Tiger Tank because they take a fancy to it, build it out of the box, in the kit markings and then put it on a shelf. Then they go back to the hobby store (or online retailer) and buy the next kit they fancy, which may be a 1/48 F-16 or a 1/24 Chevy Impala. They don't care about millimetre accuracy, whether it's 'early' or 'late', whether it has the right shaped turret or whatever - they just want to build a Tiger Tank (and anything else that takes their fancy).
Those people represent the mass market that companies are marketing their product line to. That market has probably never heard of half the vehicles we are waiting for in plastic, but they have heard of Tigers, Panthers, Shermans, Abrams and T-34s etc. A manufacturer is rarely going to release a product that has little or no resonance with their primary market.
That's where the majority of kits are sold - not to us weirdos and obsessives who actually like to research our subjects, to compare kits and praise (or curse) the various manufacturers who never seem to release what we (the minority market) seem to feel are so important.
Regards,
John
and we (the obsessive weirdos) are STILL getting a lot of the stuff WE fancy.
Yes, I have the "mandatory" Tigers in the stash....
/ Robin
sgtreef
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
Armorama: 4,347 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 04:35 AM UTC
I know might not fit here, but here goes, Dragon made a bunch of 1/6 scale kits about 10 years back , then zip, zero,stopped, right before they were supposed to come out with the Firefly in 1/6 scale , which as you know is big.But never happened, don't know if any of you know but in that world 1/6 scale they took advance orders on them, but guess what never appeared, after a year most wanted their money back , as to advanced ordering had to pay a small fee, at some shops.I did get the Sherman thought glad I did on that. But said other things coming never showed up,wish they would of done the 88 MM in 1/6 scale in plastic, would have that in a minute.So I think might not of sold enough, or waiting to get the market all messed up, then reissue it. Strange world the modeling world is, and not enough young kids have $400.00 to drop on a model kit. a phone yes but not a kit.
Jmarles
Joined: November 02, 2008
KitMaker: 1,138 posts
Armorama: 953 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 04:44 AM UTC
To respond to the original query, and it looks like some valid points put forth by others also, there are a couple of things to note. What is perceived to be unoriginal is a safe bet for sales. I imagine at some point every company wants a Tiger, Panther etc in their stable. DML tigers don't make RFM money etc. And quite frankly, sales of "Turtles", 1917 Ford ambulances and B1b's are not going to pay the bills. Also there is a perception out there especially among non-axis modelers that the market is getting flooded by "evil panzers". ( As evidenced by the almost histrionic comments in the recent news announcements about Tigers and Panthers). In fact the flow of Panthers has been rather sparse as someone has already noted. And, indeed, as newer tooled kits come out I don't see a problem with that - otherwise we would be stuck with the old awful Tigers! I truly believe high sales of panzers etc. are great for everyone because profits on panzers means firms like Takom and Meng can maybe make less profitable and more esoteric kits. There has been a steady flow of weird and wonderful modern kits and I am pretty sure the numbers would eclipse axis releases. We have a cool US recovery tank coming out soon that I think surprised many. And we still have no decent Bergepanther which is odd, considerimg Tamiya, DML, Meng, RFM are all kitting panthers. Maybe soon who knows! As always there is a ton of wants on those perennial wish lists - cold war stuff, softskins, obscure allied stuff etc. I don't agree that most modellers are casual and don't have stashes. It certainly is the golden age of modelling, that's for sure 
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 05:56 AM UTC
I find it unbelievable that anyone who has been in this hobby for five or more years has not had this question answered to their satisfaction at some point. It seems that the fact that model companies are businesses and business do what they think will make them money is unfathomable to a great many people. Or is it that people understand market economies but have this lingering notion that kitting some arcane subject is a guaranteed path to tremendous success. If only someone had the GUTS to try!
And a willingness to risk their entire company . . .
KL
And a willingness to risk their entire company . . .
KL
MrCompletely
Joined: February 12, 2016
KitMaker: 128 posts
Armorama: 120 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 08:34 AM UTC
I understand of course, that model companies are businesses out to make a profit by ensuring sales. I think most of us modellers are of a particular vintage and perhaps a good percentage are retired and have the time and money to lavish on their hobby. I'm not in that position yet (retired) nor am I well off, or likely to be, ever. Personally I think we are in a current 'Golden Age' of sorts in regards to the variety of models on offer now, which I've been dreaming about a good 4 decades. That said however, I agree that there are gaps which people in my situation (time and cash poor) would prefer to see filled, rather than further permutations of (what WE see as) well enough represented vehicles. I can't justify buying every variation of a Panther A, much as I might WANT to. If my scratch-building skills were better perhaps I could fill those gaps myself, but sadly that's not the case. Another point to consider is : why don't the companies canvas the market to see what modellers want? As it stands now, we really are only getting what they want to give us.
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
Armorama: 1,860 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 10:08 AM UTC
Revell of Germany has a section of possible future kits that they have visitors vote on. Some of those eventually come out, but not all.
Case in point being a 1/32 Dornier Do 17 to go along with their Ju 88 and He 111. It gets tons of votes and has been popular in every other scale, but nothing so far.
Case in point being a 1/32 Dornier Do 17 to go along with their Ju 88 and He 111. It gets tons of votes and has been popular in every other scale, but nothing so far.
ALBOWIE
Joined: February 28, 2006
KitMaker: 1,605 posts
Armorama: 1,565 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 10:29 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Starting to wonder what is going on in the modelling world, it seems we are about see a slew of newly tooled Panther kits on the way, including a new announcement this morning from Rye Field. Also I saw that Miniart is now jumping on the M3 Lee/Grant bandwagen. And it was not that long ago where we saw a slew of newly tooled King Tigers.
With all the subjects still not covered in plastic, why are companies looking to copy each other?
To put it simply they see those subjects as good sellers and don't make a cent off another producers kit of it. Makes perfect commercial sense. They are in it to make money, some choose to do un kitted subjects to carve out their niche and supplement them with tried and true Favourites they feel they can improve on or offer for a better value price
Al
drabslab
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,186 posts
Armorama: 190 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 01:04 PM UTC
Quoted Text
With all the subjects still not covered in plastic, why are companies looking to copy each other?
Because it is easy money.
And it appears as if there is one "background company" doing all the research, designing the model and the moulds and selling it to several brands.
By the way, the same may apply to other parts of the hobby. There was a time that all attention went to resin, then photo-etch and today its waethering books and paint brands.
But we should not worry about it, the more choice the better. The only trap to avoid is to buy only to increase the stash.
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 01:50 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Every Dragon Tiger has been an update or different variation of a 12 year old kit. Lots of new tooling for variants, but not an all new kit.
Here are the sprues of Dragon's latest Tiger.
The red blocks cover the parts that date back to their first Tiger, #6252
As you can see, the hull, the turret, the wheels and tracks are all more recent than 6252. I don't see how that can be the same "old kit".
David
drabslab
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,186 posts
Armorama: 190 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 02:20 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I find it unbelievable that anyone who has been in this hobby for five or more years has not had this question answered to their satisfaction at some point. It seems that the fact that model companies are businesses and business do what they think will make them money is unfathomable to a great many people. Or is it that people understand market economies but have this lingering notion that kitting some arcane subject is a guaranteed path to tremendous success. If only someone had the GUTS to try!
And a willingness to risk their entire company . . .
KL
Good point Kurt!
The question is what is bigger: 1% share of the entire market of the 1/35 scale TIGER Tank (whatever version), or 100% of a subject that has never been released before?
Never released may go hand in hand with "was also an exceptional appearance in real life", or "this thing performed so poorly soldiers left it behind".
And yes, its only economy, the companies produces what modellers buy, hence, the absence of exotic kits is only due to the kit manufacturers havign the experience that exotic models don't sell.
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 03:11 PM UTC
Some modellers want more accurate models and a 12 year old Panther is going to be less accurate than a new one by a company that seems to strive for more accurate kits. And yes model companies have to make kits that sell. Look at the new line of Star Wars kits that are coming out with the release of the new movie. There was a thread about new paint companies a couple weeks back and why are there so many new ones, why do we need them. Well this is like that, why are there new Panthers when there is already so many kits available? It's because that is how an economy works. Supply and demand or in the case of some folks wanting new/more accurate kits: demand and supply. 40 years ago you went out and got a Sherman model. It may look like a Sherman but you would be hard pressed to figure out which model. 30 years ago you could get one that was a reasonable representation of a variant but still had flaws. 20 years ago, you could start getting more variants including post war and IDF. Now you can get one buy after market parts to depict a specific tank from an obscure photo you found in a 70 year old news clipping right down to correct tracks, turret and foundry marks. Modelers demanded and the industry supplied and I've been reading for years how everyone wants a more accurate Panther with and interior and we BMC when they finally deliver. What do people want next, a kit that once you open the box it assembles and paints itself?
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