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The Wehrmacht's Most Monstrous Unit
long_tom
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 02:40 PM UTC

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"Those who fail to heed the lessons of the past are bound to repeat them" or words to that effect! I for one hope that we collectively never allow these types any place in our societies ever again! History is full of examples of these cowardly scum!


There are always people like that around and always will be.
adamant
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 02:57 PM UTC

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"Those who fail to heed the lessons of the past are bound to repeat them" or words to that effect! I for one hope that we collectively never allow these types any place in our societies ever again! History is full of examples of these cowardly scum!


There are always people like that around and always will be.



Yes, hopefully, our societies will never find a use for them the way Germany did.
HansBouwmeester
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 03:19 PM UTC

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"Those who fail to heed the lessons of the past are bound to repeat them" or words to that effect! I for one hope that we collectively never allow these types any place in our societies ever again! History is full of examples of these cowardly scum!


There are always people like that around and always will be.



Yes, hopefully, our societies will never find a use for them the way Germany did.



In my country they get all the support they need because they are "SJW's" and call themselves anti-facists but it was Churchill who once said that new facists would call themselves anti-facists. Here history is repeating itsselve.
adamant
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 03:25 PM UTC

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"Those who fail to heed the lessons of the past are bound to repeat them" or words to that effect! I for one hope that we collectively never allow these types any place in our societies ever again! History is full of examples of these cowardly scum!


There are always people like that around and always will be.



Yes, hopefully, our societies will never find a use for them the way Germany did.



In my country they get all the support they need because they are "SJW's" and call themselves anti-facists but it was Churchill who once said that new facists would call themselves anti-facists. Here history is repeating itsselve.



In NZ, specifically Auckland, they work for police and fly out of Mechanics Bay! So I bow to your superior knowledge on this repetition of history good sir!
Vierville
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 04:28 PM UTC

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When the Russians captured the Kaminski Brigade" at the end of the war the Russian Army unit who captured them contacted their HQ. The reply was to kill them all--on the spot. The SS unit was that bad.



PzDave, this proves precisely that in a war both sides commit breaches of whatever rules of engagement are in place at the time but only the losing side gets labelled as "evil".

Killing captured troops on the spot was one of the things that got the SS their infamy but when the Russians killed the captured SS as you stated above, that's a sign of how bad the SS were? Weren't the Russians breaking rules of engagement too!?

And the Russian army was notorious for their brutality, to their own troops, to their captives and to the civillians that were killed and raped by them. But because they were on the Allies' side this was forgotten.

If western countries applied their rules fairly, not only the swastika and SS runes would be banned, but also the hammer and sickle and red star emblem as both symbolised mass atrocities. But they were committing these acts in the Allies' name so we forget that conveniently.

As I posted earlier on in this thread, war by its very nature is a dirty filthy business whose sole purpose is to kill as many of the other side before they kill you. In our modern world where absolutely everything is governed by rules and regulations which control every minute aspect of life in order to soften, control and aplease those who take offence, we have lost touch with the very basic reality that when two sides go to war, their only objective is to kill each other.

Attrocities and violations were committed by ALL sides in WW2. 75 years later, we simply cannot transpose the circumstances of those events onto our understanding of the modern world and make judgements based on how we live today.
long_tom
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 06:27 PM UTC

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"Those who fail to heed the lessons of the past are bound to repeat them" or words to that effect! I for one hope that we collectively never allow these types any place in our societies ever again! History is full of examples of these cowardly scum!


There are always people like that around and always will be.



Yes, hopefully, our societies will never find a use for them the way Germany did.



In my country they get all the support they need because they are "SJW's" and call themselves anti-facists but it was Churchill who once said that new facists would call themselves anti-facists. Here history is repeating itsselve.



In NZ, specifically Auckland, they work for police and fly out of Mechanics Bay! So I bow to your superior knowledge on this repetition of history good sir!


In the USA, there may be bad police officers, but most of them are saints compared to the people who complain about police brutality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu1vrb-cvwU
The song was supposed to be a protest against police brutality but instead it convinced the public that those who complain about it are worse scumbags than the worst police.
Biggles2
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 09:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text



Attrocities and violations were committed by ALL sides in WW2. 75 years later, we simply cannot transpose the circumstances of those events onto our understanding of the modern world and make judgements based on how we live today.


Apparently there was a generally circulated Allied un-written order NOT to take prisoners on D-Day. Of course, this will NEVER be admitted to. There are several anecdotes by veterans,in documentaries, (US, British, and Canadian) who attest to witnessing the shooting of surrendering Wehrmacht - reason being there was no place to hold prisoners, or personnel to guard them. These incidents were too widespread to be just co-incidental. A lot of those surrendering were just too happy to out of the Nazi army, and out of the war. Unfortunately, for them, they decided to surrender on the wong day!
HansBouwmeester
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 10:34 PM UTC
[quote]
Quoted Text



Attrocities and violations were committed by ALL sides in WW2. 75 years later, we simply cannot transpose the circumstances of those events onto our understanding of the modern world and make judgements based on how we live today.



So true, if only we did try to understand those events and project them to our way of living. Here, we do not have bad cops. Our cops lost every bit of respect and can be rediculed and bashed. Here a highly decorated Veteran that fought in Afghanistan is prosecuted for killing an enemy during his tour of duty. Here we welcome those who left the country to join IS. Here the mayor of a major city welcomes salafism... If only we tried to understand and act accordingly.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 11:32 PM UTC

[/quote]
Apparently there was a generally circulated Allied un-written order NOT to take prisoners on D-Day. Of course, this will NEVER be admitted to. There are several anecdotes by veterans,in documentaries, (US, British, and Canadian) who attest to witnessing the shooting of surrendering Wehrmacht - reason being there was no place to hold prisoners, or personnel to guard them. These incidents were too widespread to be just co-incidental. A lot of those surrendering were just too happy to out of the Nazi army, and out of the war. Unfortunately, for them, they decided to surrender on the wong day!
[/quote]

Not sure where you got your info from-- but on the other hand there is documented, unrefutable proof of hundreds of German prisoners being taken on D-Day, not only form the prisoners themselves, but in the form of photographs which exist today. Prisoners were taken at Point du Hoc, Behind Omaha and Utah beach, and at Sword and Juno beaches, and have been documented in various books from the Longest Day by Cornelius Ryan to the latest historical tomes. There are photos of prisoner in holding pens and on the beaches. My German landlord was in an 88mm AA unit captured behind Sword beach on D+4, spent a day "at the beach" in a holding pen, and was transferred by LCVP back to England to sit out the war until 1946 in a British POW camp. so I doubt there was ever an "uncirculated directive" stating otherwise. Weber (my landlord) said he was in a camp (one of several) that had about 400 prisoners by D+5 that were captured on D-Day or shortly thereafter. So Prisoners were indeed being taken, and moved to the rear. I have no doubt that some units and individuals did in fact shoot prisoners, but I'd say that was the exception, not the norm on the Day of Days. One other comment Weber told me was that the "Star in the Circle" markings on allied tanks made great aiming points.
VR, Russ
long_tom
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 11:37 PM UTC

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One other comment Weber told me was that the "Star in the Circle" markings on allied tanks made great aiming points.
VR, Russ


The Germans had to eliminate the white crosses on their tanks after the Polish war for the exact same reason!
adamant
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 11:38 PM UTC

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"Those who fail to heed the lessons of the past are bound to repeat them" or words to that effect! I for one hope that we collectively never allow these types any place in our societies ever again! History is full of examples of these cowardly scum!


There are always people like that around and always will be.



Yes, hopefully, our societies will never find a use for them the way Germany did.



In my country they get all the support they need because they are "SJW's" and call themselves anti-facists but it was Churchill who once said that new facists would call themselves anti-facists. Here history is repeating itsselve.



In NZ, specifically Auckland, they work for police and fly out of Mechanics Bay! So I bow to your superior knowledge on this repetition of history good sir!


In the USA, there may be bad police officers, but most of them are saints compared to the people who complain about police brutality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu1vrb-cvwU
The song was supposed to be a protest against police brutality but instead it convinced the public that those who complain about it are worse scumbags than the worst police.



That's painfully obvious. Whilst he may have played the part of mr policeman on the big screen I doubt Ice T's anyone's example of a pillar of society by any stretch.

I've maintained for some time now that Auckland police's utilization of its air asset has been unlawful, incidences in which I've been roused from needed sleep owing to early starts at work because the said asset runs harassment, milk -runs over my residence on multiple occasions tells me all I need to know about this particular part of Auckland police's operation and the hierarchy involved. And before anyone says they could be chasing criminals etc, well, it's happened so many times and only when I've needed to start work early in the past year or so. Something I'm damn sure Work and Saftey NZ would be very interested in!

I am more than happy with your ground pounder policeman, no problems what so ever with their conduct!(which in case anyone is wondering I have had no contact with what so ever in the stated time frame) But this group operating out of Mechanics Bay, need crossed stick grenades painted to their aircrafts fusalage. Sad but true!
Vierville
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Posted: Saturday, February 24, 2018 - 12:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text




Apparently there was a generally circulated Allied un-written order NOT to take prisoners on D-Day. Of course, this will NEVER be admitted to. There are several anecdotes by veterans,in documentaries, (US, British, and Canadian) who attest to witnessing the shooting of surrendering Wehrmacht - reason being there was no place to hold prisoners, or personnel to guard them. These incidents were too widespread to be just co-incidental. A lot of those surrendering were just too happy to out of the Nazi army, and out of the war. Unfortunately, for them, they decided to surrender on the wong day!
[/quote]

Not sure where you got your info from-- but on the other hand there is documented, unrefutable proof of hundreds of German prisoners being taken on D-Day, not only form the prisoners themselves, but in the form of photographs which exist today. Prisoners were taken at Point du Hoc, Behind Omaha and Utah beach, and at Sword and Juno beaches, and have been documented in various books from the Longest Day by Cornelius Ryan to the latest historical tomes. There are photos of prisoner in holding pens and on the beaches. My German landlord was in an 88mm AA unit captured behind Sword beach on D+4, spent a day "at the beach" in a holding pen, and was transferred by LCVP back to England to sit out the war until 1946 in a British POW camp. so I doubt there was ever an "uncirculated directive" stating otherwise. Weber (my landlord) said he was in a camp (one of several) that had about 400 prisoners by D+5 that were captured on D-Day or shortly thereafter. So Prisoners were indeed being taken, and moved to the rear. I have no doubt that some units and individuals did in fact shoot prisoners, but I'd say that was the exception, not the norm on the Day of Days. One other comment Weber told me was that the "Star in the Circle" markings on allied tanks made great aiming points.
VR, Russ[/quote]

Hi Russ.

There was no general order to the Allied troops on D-Day to take no prisoners, as you correctly indicate. The order was issued to the airborne troops only, along with the order to not shoot unless absolutely necessary but rather use knives or grenades to kill any germans encountered until daylight to avoid mass confusion.

The above is pretty well documented.

Of course, there were many German prisoners taken by the Allies and it was not a general practice to kill prisoners but it did happen.

My point is that nobody was squeaky clean.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Saturday, February 24, 2018 - 12:41 AM UTC

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Hear hear!! Mr.Bravo, I sa.ute you for your, 1000% correct, comment.
The biggest problem these days is the complete lack of historic knowledge by those you, in spite of that lack, feel intitled to have an opinion.
I have a "MyLittlePony"-generation niece that went to Hiroshima. She was shocked by what she saw, almost broke down in tears for those poor Japanese victems and cursed the massmurdering Americans who dropped the bom.
I asked her if she had any idea what made the Americans do that and what the Japs did to let it get that far......she didn't......but wow, did she have an opinion!!

And the Japanese aren't exactly popular in the other Asian nations either.


Especially not in the parts of China that were under Japanese occupation for many years ....
long_tom
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Posted: Saturday, February 24, 2018 - 01:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

That's painfully obvious. Whilst he may have played the part of mr policeman on the big screen I doubt Ice T's anyone's example of a pillar of society by any stretch.

I've maintained for some time now that Auckland police's utilization of its air asset has been unlawful, incidences in which I've been roused from needed sleep owing to early starts at work because the said asset runs harassment, milk -runs over my residence on multiple occasions tells me all I need to know about this particular part of Auckland police's operation and the hierarchy involved. And before anyone says they could be chasing criminals etc, well, it's happened so many times and only when I've needed to start work early in the past year or so. Something I'm damn sure Work and Saftey NZ would be very interested in!

I am more than happy with your ground pounder policeman, no problems what so ever with their conduct!(which in case anyone is wondering I have had no contact with what so ever in the stated time frame) But this group operating out of Mechanics Bay, need crossed stick grenades painted to their aircrafts fusalage. Sad but true!


I agree that no cure should be worse than the disease.
adamant
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Posted: Saturday, February 24, 2018 - 01:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

That's painfully obvious. Whilst he may have played the part of mr policeman on the big screen I doubt Ice T's anyone's example of a pillar of society by any stretch.

I've maintained for some time now that Auckland police's utilization of its air asset has been unlawful, incidences in which I've been roused from needed sleep owing to early starts at work because the said asset runs harassment, milk -runs over my residence on multiple occasions tells me all I need to know about this particular part of Auckland police's operation and the hierarchy involved. And before anyone says they could be chasing criminals etc, well, it's happened so many times and only when I've needed to start work early in the past year or so. Something I'm damn sure Work and Saftey NZ would be very interested in!

I am more than happy with your ground pounder policeman, no problems what so ever with their conduct!(which in case anyone is wondering I have had no contact with what so ever in the stated time frame) But this group operating out of Mechanics Bay, need crossed stick grenades painted to their aircrafts fusalage. Sad but true!


I agree that no cure should be worse than the disease.



Haha, if by disease you meant malfeasance in Auckland police's hierarchy and police aversion to criticism than I concur. Thanks for the back up from National Socialst Auckland.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Saturday, February 24, 2018 - 02:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text



....There was no general order to the Allied troops on D-Day to take no prisoners, as you correctly indicate. The order was issued to the airborne troops only, along with the order to not shoot unless absolutely necessary but rather use knives or grenades to kill any germans encountered until daylight to avoid mass confusion.

The above is pretty well documented.

Of course, there were many German prisoners taken by the Allies and it was not a general practice to kill prisoners but it did happen.

My point is that nobody was squeaky clean.



I agree, up to a point. The nature of Airborne operations on D-Day did not make taking prisoners a priority or even a possibility in many cases, yet there are lots of instances of Airborne troops doing just that-- and taking prisoners when it was advantageous to do so. I specifically recall a passage in the book "Curahee!" Where airborne troops took a bunch of Hungarians captive on D+1 after the sun came up. These troops had been pressed into Wehrmacht service, and naturally surrendered early on. In the same book, the troopers involved come upon a German Foxhole that had received a mortar round, with two severely wounded Germans with no faces, and thier arms and legs are missing. As they walk away the Germans begin moaning. Not knowing what to do, they shoot them as a form of "mercy killing", saying to themselves that if the roles were reveresed, they'd want someone to do the same for them. I don't think there is evidence of any organized order issued to Airborne troops not to take prisoners. But, "War is Hell" in the words of General Sherman, and Airborne Operations are designed to inflict maximum disruption to the enemy, so I agree that in the heat of the action, a "no quarter" order might have been issued by individual tactical level commanders. There is an incident depicted in "Band of Brothers" by Stephen Ambrose where an officer supposedly "takes care" of prisoners-- but even the troops who were there never actually saw it happen. And later on, the incident is in doubt, with the officer just wanting to appear as a tough guy. I don't doubt many troops used General Sherman's sentiments in dealing with prisoners. That's a lot different than a nation organizing execution and terror squads, like Dirlewanger's thugs were. This group of criminals murdered 40,000 Poles in two days at Warsaw, suffering 315% casualties themselves (according to Wikipedia anyway), for which Dirlewanger himself received an a award of the Knights Cross. Had I been a German officer at the time who had received the Knights Cross for bravery as many did, I'd have been pretty disgusted. In most modern armies, a commander who's unit sustains 315% casualties among his troops would be relieved of command and likely Court martialled for dereliction of duty. But that goes to show you the level of regard the Nazis had for thier own troops let alone the "enemy". Wars are rife with savagery, that's what war is. And yet there are those who rise above the savagery and become noble for what they don't do too. Those are the ones that should be remembered, regardless of the side they are on. However, I will add that if Soldiers were in charge of things, there wouldn't be any wars, because soldiers know the savagery of war first hand. As Clausewitz said: "War is the continuation of politics by other means". In modern history anyway, the Nazis took this completely to heart.
VR, Russ
long_tom
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Posted: Saturday, February 24, 2018 - 03:34 AM UTC
That was my whole point-Dirlewanger and his unit were known as utter scumbags, hated even by their fellow Germans. But Dirlewanger was evidently an effective soldier as well as a great scholar, having a university doctorate. Even scumbags can be brilliant. Ask Rolf Harris or Jimmy Savile, neither known much in the USA. Somehow they escaped justice for their crimes for decades. Don't ask me how.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Saturday, February 24, 2018 - 03:55 AM UTC
Yep. I had no idea who Dirlewanger was until I looked him up. His Doctorate by the way was rescinded, then restored under duress of the Nazi political establishment. I'm not sure if he could be qualified as "brilliant" just because he had a doctorate either. His "doctorate" was in political science, but he was also a convicted criminal for embezzlement, sexual offenses, and criminal recidivism. Repeatedly. As I said, had I been a German officer with the Knights Cross like Marseille, Rommel, Etc, I'd have puked had I known about Dirlewanger's award. But that's the point-- most German officers in the regular forces had no or very little knowledge of what the "final solution folks" were doing, as the Nazi SS and political leadership compartmentalized this information. And those who did and protested simply disappeared. Others who saw these units in action thought they were lower than vermin. I personally don't have an aversion to modeling German WWII forces, even the Waffen SS, but frankly, if one wants to model these guys, you might as well model Josef Mengele. There was really nothing honorable, brave or admirable to being in this unit. You were a criminal, and you might live a while longer if you murdered and raped savagely (although there were similar units of political prisoners, as I mentioned earlier, including anti-Nazis, but I doubt they would have lasted long in this particular unit). Just my opinion, and we know how opinions are. And I think I for one have beaten this particular topic to death, so I'm going to politely "butt out" now, I try and refrain from pushing my views on others, but when I read about these guys, I thought they were likely the worst of the worst.
VR, Russ
Biggles2
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Posted: Saturday, February 24, 2018 - 04:45 AM UTC
I've seen D-Day documentaries from US, Canadian, and British sources. All of them had interviews with veterans (obviously these interviews took place several years ago) who variously witnessed some killing of prisoners ON D-Day. Once the beaches were cleared of landing vehicles and troops (D + 1) pens were able to be set up and prisoners accommodated. Maybe some of you want to call veterans liars because you don't agree with them?? Don't tell me some of you are so naive that you think setting up prisoner pens was a priority in the first few hours of landing!
Mark_D_J_C
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Posted: Saturday, February 24, 2018 - 05:31 AM UTC

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I've seen D-Day documentaries from US, Canadian, and British sources. All of them had interviews with veterans (obviously these interviews took place several years ago) who variously witnessed some killing of prisoners ON D-Day. Once the beaches were cleared of landing vehicles and troops (D + 1) pens were able to be set up and prisoners accommodated. Maybe some of you want to call veterans liars because you don't agree with them?? Don't tell me some of you are so naive that you think setting up prisoner pens was a priority in the first few hours of landing!



I'm pretty sure discussions go better if one doesn't start by calling other people naive and implying they're ignorant.

Just a thought.

obg153
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Posted: Saturday, February 24, 2018 - 06:12 AM UTC
Most of us agree that violations of Geneva Convention rules occurred on all sides. But let's not forget that with Hitler, Himmler and their cronies, these atrocities were deliberate, planned acts committed as a means to eliminate ethnic groups, & to create fear among the people in the countries they attacked. Similar acts were committed by Japanese troops throughout the PTO, and for similar reasons. The Japanese believed themselves to be superior to the Chinese, Korean, and island populations, a lot like the Nazi "untermenschen" mindset. Eastern Europe suffered first from the Nazis, then again under the Russians. German cities were fire-bombed by the British and Japanese cities by US bombers, resulting in thousands more deaths.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Saturday, February 24, 2018 - 07:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text


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I've seen D-Day documentaries from US, Canadian, and British sources. All of them had interviews with veterans (obviously these interviews took place several years ago) who variously witnessed some killing of prisoners ON D-Day. Once the beaches were cleared of landing vehicles and troops (D + 1) pens were able to be set up and prisoners accommodated. Maybe some of you want to call veterans liars because you don't agree with them?? Don't tell me some of you are so naive that you think setting up prisoner pens was a priority in the first few hours of landing!



I'm pretty sure discussions go better if one doesn't start by calling other people naive and implying they're ignorant.

Just a thought.




I for one don’t take offense easily, so I’m not particularly offended by any of this. But as a Veteran of 30 years of military service myself, I can also tell you veteran’s sometimes forget or jumble facts as the memory fades. Especially 20 or 30 years or more after the fact. And, I’m also not so naive to believe it didn’t happen that way either. Nor am I naive enough to believe all the stories from veterans just because they are veterans. Of course no prisoner pens are going to be set up while gunfire is being exchanged on the beachhead or landing zone— that's kind of a spurious argument, because defenders don't typically surrender right away if they are defending a well prepared position-- so it's not likely there will be a lot of prisoners to surrender at that moment in time. But there is at least one photo of assembled German prisoners on the beachhead immediately after the landings. Organized collection points won’t happen until the beachhead or landing zone is secured. But that’s different from stating “directives were issued to take no prisoners”. In combat, bad stuff happens, we all agree I think. I have no doubt troops on both sides killed enemy POWs. There are many cases that document that fact as court martial and war crimes trials attest (Joachim Pieper for instance). There's also documented proof that flame thrower crews were routinely executed or had bounties placed on them by opposing tactical forces--during the Normandy campaign in fact, or of flight crew being executed on landing in thier parachutes. That’s far different from a unit being deliberately directed, ordered, and used in combat to inflict maximum terror and atrocity on humanity. Ok, I’ll butt out now.
VR, Russ
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Posted: Saturday, February 24, 2018 - 10:06 AM UTC
Just a point about flight crews, often military personnel would have to race to where they were seen to keep civilians from killing them in retribution for the bombing raids. They would have to force even police from killing them putright instead of givinv them their rights as POWs.

Also, I know of at least one instance where soldiers (to include a light tank) were used to protect a surrendered German officer from a civilian population. According to the story, he sat on the engine deck of an M5 with its turret traversed to the rear covering the rest of his command. Soldiers and MPz kept the civilians at arms length.

For stories of massacre, there are also stories of the regulations being followed and POWs having to be protected from retribution. I researched this while prepping a whole class on it when I took all the instructor training classes.

And remember the first instance of terror being used on a civilian population as a weapon of war goes back to a stele commemorating a battle in ancient Egypt. The pharoah razed a city and killed civilians to terrorize them and force their king to surrender. All this horror about WW2 is only because it's so well documented and still within living memory. And that it's a war that has grabbed our imaginations because of all it's technical toys of destruction that make for such interesting miniatures.
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Posted: Saturday, February 24, 2018 - 11:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I've seen D-Day documentaries from US, Canadian, and British sources. All of them had interviews with veterans (obviously these interviews took place several years ago) who variously witnessed some killing of prisoners ON D-Day. Once the beaches were cleared of landing vehicles and troops (D + 1) pens were able to be set up and prisoners accommodated. Maybe some of you want to call veterans liars because you don't agree with them?? Don't tell me some of you are so naive that you think setting up prisoner pens was a priority in the first few hours of landing!



https://youtu.be/VCbW7Gkgu2U
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