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Miniart Tiran 4 errors..
nichenson
Joined: March 07, 2018
KitMaker: 16 posts
Armorama: 15 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2018 - 08:11 AM UTC
No need to worry about the 100mm cannon. Miniart is actually issuing 5 separate kits. They are of course doing the late Tiran 4 with interior, but they are also doing the early Tiran 4Sh with and without interior, the late Tiran 4Sh, and an early Tiran 4. I believe the issue is that late and early are used. They, in particular, are not referring to the usage by IDF but as the entire Tiran lifespan. The kit that has been released is indeed a late in life Tiran 4 backdated with a 100mm cannon for the SLA. There are maybe a couple of those that were ever used by IDF soldiers from what I have found. Those appear to have been during the transition and training of the SLA. Those wishing for a Tiran 4 from the IDF, you should be happy to know those kits should be out later this year. Those kits will have the proper 105mm cannon and the 4Sh early features at least one scheme with the spider wheels.
gloucesternige
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2018 - 01:24 AM UTC
This is great!! On page two and input from some proper knowledgable folk!!
As the OP I would like to ask a question that will probably get lots of responses...
Now I need to build my Tiran 4 as an SLA Tank would I be wrong in thinking this tank would have been painted Russian Green, then Syrian /Egyptian Camo, then IDF Sand Grey followed by the beautiful SLA camo? I'm thinking along the lines of chipping heaven!!
As the OP I would like to ask a question that will probably get lots of responses...
Now I need to build my Tiran 4 as an SLA Tank would I be wrong in thinking this tank would have been painted Russian Green, then Syrian /Egyptian Camo, then IDF Sand Grey followed by the beautiful SLA camo? I'm thinking along the lines of chipping heaven!!
Removed by original poster on 03/08/18 - 20:44:25 (GMT).
ReluctantRenegade
Joined: March 09, 2016
KitMaker: 2,408 posts
Armorama: 2,300 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2018 - 01:44 AM UTC
Quoted Text
would I be wrong in thinking this tank would have been painted Russian Green, then Syrian /Egyptian Camo, then IDF Sand Grey followed by the beautiful SLA camo? I'm thinking along the lines of chipping heaven!!
You're pretty much on the correct path there...
The one I saw in Lebanon had a truly indescribable color.
glock17c
Joined: May 16, 2007
KitMaker: 133 posts
Armorama: 130 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2018 - 01:47 AM UTC
Chipingc and color layers wise, I recommend you to obtain my book TWR-1 on Tiran Wrecks. (I hate to do it, because it sounds like advertising... but truely you have great inspiring photos there)>
You will notice Russian green, then a few IDF different Sand yellow and sand grey, then the faded SLA cammo.
You will notice Russian green, then a few IDF different Sand yellow and sand grey, then the faded SLA cammo.
gloucesternige
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2018 - 03:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Chipingc and color layers wise, I recommend you to obtain my book TWR-1 on Tiran Wrecks. (I hate to do it, because it sounds like advertising... but truely you have great inspiring photos there)>
You will notice Russian green, then a few IDF different Sand yellow and sand grey, then the faded SLA cammo.
Done.. ordered on Amazon..
fraleoc
Joined: April 12, 2005
KitMaker: 3 posts
Armorama: 3 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2018 - 11:27 PM UTC
Quoted Text
A few clarifications, dear friends
1. ....
5. The gun was NOT M68 (the US version) but only a 105 L7 barrel connected to the 100mm original breech and recoil mechanism. The only change in the breech was the installation of the electrical firing pin, and the added manual generating mech.
....
Michael Mass
Having this in mind the differences of the breechs shown by Miniart are not in line. Maybe a later retrofit?
3D renders are from Miniart.
Don't get me wrong, ' love the Miniart T-'s.
Frank
gloucesternige
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Friday, March 09, 2018 - 01:54 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextA few clarifications, dear friends
1. ....
5. The gun was NOT M68 (the US version) but only a 105 L7 barrel connected to the 100mm original breech and recoil mechanism. The only change in the breech was the installation of the electrical firing pin, and the added manual generating mech.
....
Michael Mass
Having this in mind the differences of the breechs shown by Miniart are not in line. Maybe a later retrofit?
3D renders are from Miniart.
Don't get me wrong, ' love the Miniart T-'s.
Frank
Interesting observation!!
USP45C
Joined: July 16, 2012
KitMaker: 20 posts
Armorama: 19 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 10, 2018 - 08:21 AM UTC
Towards the end of the '73 War there were Tiran 5's seen in this configuration, original 100mm gun and early style of turret bins. 
nichenson
Joined: March 07, 2018
KitMaker: 16 posts
Armorama: 15 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 10, 2018 - 10:37 AM UTC
The left pic is a D-10T cannon which is the original type of cannon on a T-54. The right pic appears to be a variant of the Royal Ordinance L7/M68.
gloucesternige
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 10, 2018 - 02:37 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Towards the end of the '73 War there were Tiran 5's seen in this configuration, original 100mm gun and early style of turret bins.
Thanks for this info Florencio. Does this mean the kit can be accurately built from the box as IDF and still be accurate?
The two IDF options in the box are "IDF,70's" and "IDF,Training unit of the Lebanese Tankmen. Desert Negez, early 80's".
I would prefer to build "this" kit as an IDF example as I am aware they looked after their tanks and I really dont want to weather this one too much. I would rather get the Takom kit and build that as a beat up SLA tank.
glock17c
Joined: May 16, 2007
KitMaker: 133 posts
Armorama: 130 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 11, 2018 - 04:38 PM UTC
Don't get confused Nigel
Tiran 4 were:
1. After 67 with 100mm gun with and without fume extractor. These were early configuration w/o air recognition boxes on turret.
2. Later in 69 they were converted to receive the IMI TAAS 105mm 'Sharir' gun (not Royal Ordnance, not M68). They were still without the air recognition boxes on the turret.
3. In 1975 the air recognition boxes were added to the entire T54/55/62 fleet, including one company of Tiran 5 that were fitted with 100 mm gun for training "foreigners".
4. Tiran 4 Sharir were downgraded in the late 70s to the 100mm gun for forwarding them to the SLA. They were with the air recognition boxes.
Tiran 4 were:
1. After 67 with 100mm gun with and without fume extractor. These were early configuration w/o air recognition boxes on turret.
2. Later in 69 they were converted to receive the IMI TAAS 105mm 'Sharir' gun (not Royal Ordnance, not M68). They were still without the air recognition boxes on the turret.
3. In 1975 the air recognition boxes were added to the entire T54/55/62 fleet, including one company of Tiran 5 that were fitted with 100 mm gun for training "foreigners".
4. Tiran 4 Sharir were downgraded in the late 70s to the 100mm gun for forwarding them to the SLA. They were with the air recognition boxes.
gloucesternige
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 11, 2018 - 10:55 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Don't get confused Nigel
Thanks for clarifying Michael.
I have the "Tiran in Lebanese wars" book and am currently waiting on the Tiran wrecks book. Hopefully these will educate me further?
gloucesternige
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Monday, March 12, 2018 - 05:30 AM UTC
OK guys, back to the subject.. errors in the instructions of this wonderful little model. I wonder if Miniart are taking notes??
In step 20 you will see you require 5 off part H1. these are shown as not required on the sprue call out.
Step 68 has parts P24,P28,P44,P45,Nb4 and Nb7 to make the gadget that gos into the turret. All these parts are marked as not required.
Step 26 has you building the road wheels.Parts Hm4 are the inner wheels and all mine had flash on the hub centre, which was difficult to remove.I decided to fit the pin, Hm3 and the centrecap to the wheel outer and made a schoolboy error.. There are 10 off centrecaps, Hm2, on sprue Hm along with all the other wheel parts. These are not correct for the Tiran 4, you need to use Ff3 as shown in the manual..Doh!! I managed to change mine out so my Tiran will now be correct.
I dont know if this is always the way in Miniart kits, but the PE is a complete joy to work with. It cuts easily, sands easily and forms easily. Lovely job Miniart!!
In step 20 you will see you require 5 off part H1. these are shown as not required on the sprue call out.
Step 68 has parts P24,P28,P44,P45,Nb4 and Nb7 to make the gadget that gos into the turret. All these parts are marked as not required.
Step 26 has you building the road wheels.Parts Hm4 are the inner wheels and all mine had flash on the hub centre, which was difficult to remove.I decided to fit the pin, Hm3 and the centrecap to the wheel outer and made a schoolboy error.. There are 10 off centrecaps, Hm2, on sprue Hm along with all the other wheel parts. These are not correct for the Tiran 4, you need to use Ff3 as shown in the manual..Doh!! I managed to change mine out so my Tiran will now be correct.
I dont know if this is always the way in Miniart kits, but the PE is a complete joy to work with. It cuts easily, sands easily and forms easily. Lovely job Miniart!!
Removed by original poster on 03/13/18 - 21:16:53 (GMT).
Removed by original poster on 03/13/18 - 21:21:51 (GMT).
Removed by original poster on 03/13/18 - 22:01:24 (GMT).
USP45C
Joined: July 16, 2012
KitMaker: 20 posts
Armorama: 19 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 03:02 AM UTC
gloucesternige
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 03:35 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I cant see your pic mate??
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 03:59 AM UTC
Fixed the link, the original prompt part: http://put.url.here/image.file had accidentally been left between the brackets
I also replaced the thumb-nail link with a link to the larger picture
/ Robin
gloucesternige
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 04:41 AM UTC
Thank you Robin. I assume these are T-55's ready for conversion to Tiran's?
glock17c
Joined: May 16, 2007
KitMaker: 133 posts
Armorama: 130 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 - 01:07 PM UTC
No.
It is February 1974, the ceremony of fast-config of the first 100 ocs T55 100mm all from the Egyptian front. These 100 Tiran5/100 early were delivered to the 265th Brigade the day after.
I am somewhere in this photo. Never seen this photo before.
Photo is in the 650th Armored Corps depot.
The tanks are paunted with a white 'plus' recog sign.
It is February 1974, the ceremony of fast-config of the first 100 ocs T55 100mm all from the Egyptian front. These 100 Tiran5/100 early were delivered to the 265th Brigade the day after.
I am somewhere in this photo. Never seen this photo before.
Photo is in the 650th Armored Corps depot.
The tanks are paunted with a white 'plus' recog sign.
gloucesternige
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2018 - 12:28 PM UTC
Another issue with the kit, but this time it's in the fit department. When you try and fit the external bearing housings to the swinging arms they are a mile off a good fit.
After some trial and error I discovered the best route for correction was to shorten the outer pin on the swinging arm and radius the shape at the forward side of aforementioned pin.
The outer bearing casing will now fit perfectly and but up to the hull sides beautifully.
After some trial and error I discovered the best route for correction was to shorten the outer pin on the swinging arm and radius the shape at the forward side of aforementioned pin.
The outer bearing casing will now fit perfectly and but up to the hull sides beautifully.
USP45C
Joined: July 16, 2012
KitMaker: 20 posts
Armorama: 19 posts
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2018 - 07:37 AM UTC
[quote]
Fixed the link, the original prompt part: http://put.url.here/image.file had accidentally been left between the brackets
I also replaced the thumb-nail link with a link to the larger picture
Thanks for fixing the pic for me. So regarding these Tirans. On the old Military Photos website some Israeli members posted that these were put into to service towards the end and after the '73 war. That they had basic modifications: US intercom system for C.V.C. helmets, US radios and mounts, .30cal. Browning for co-ax and one on the turret roof, one jerry can on back of turret. Some still had original Soviet front fenders while others had Israeli replacement ones. There are pics of them on transporters crossing the canal.
Fixed the link, the original prompt part: http://put.url.here/image.file had accidentally been left between the brackets
I also replaced the thumb-nail link with a link to the larger picture
Thanks for fixing the pic for me. So regarding these Tirans. On the old Military Photos website some Israeli members posted that these were put into to service towards the end and after the '73 war. That they had basic modifications: US intercom system for C.V.C. helmets, US radios and mounts, .30cal. Browning for co-ax and one on the turret roof, one jerry can on back of turret. Some still had original Soviet front fenders while others had Israeli replacement ones. There are pics of them on transporters crossing the canal.
gloucesternige
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 18, 2018 - 05:07 AM UTC
More errors guys..
Sprue B shows part 21 not rquired and sprue P shows 23 and 29 not required. These parts are required for the main gun firing equipment.
The ammo boxes have hollow bottoms, which will be visible when you take your turret off to view the amazing detail from underneath. I filled mine with plastic scrap and sanded flush.
It would appear that miniart have left out a lot of the parts around the drivers compartment? There are no instruments or greeblies whatsoever. I believe there should be a long panel of gauges atop the partition between driver and ammo store?
I'll get some pics up soon of my build.. it truly is a beautiful model that will reward some careful modelling and patience. It is definitley NOT a shake and bake kit!!!
Sprue B shows part 21 not rquired and sprue P shows 23 and 29 not required. These parts are required for the main gun firing equipment.
The ammo boxes have hollow bottoms, which will be visible when you take your turret off to view the amazing detail from underneath. I filled mine with plastic scrap and sanded flush.
It would appear that miniart have left out a lot of the parts around the drivers compartment? There are no instruments or greeblies whatsoever. I believe there should be a long panel of gauges atop the partition between driver and ammo store?
I'll get some pics up soon of my build.. it truly is a beautiful model that will reward some careful modelling and patience. It is definitley NOT a shake and bake kit!!!
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