Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Tank losses to air attack
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 - 05:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Same reason all the armor thickness was going up .
More and more powerful weapons to defend against .




And what were those "more and more powerful weapons" (that impacted the top surfaces of tanks) that needed to be defended against? I think it unlikely that the roof armor was increased as protection against direct fire anti-tank weapons.

KL
urumomo
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Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 - 05:21 AM UTC
Again -- this does not refute the data presented in the video .

Robin gave a very visceral response condemning the video and launching into ad hominem attacks on the video maker ...

Waiting on specific issues presented in the video to be poo poo'd .
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 - 06:57 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Again -- this does not refute the data presented in the video .

Robin gave a very visceral response condemning the video and launching into ad hominem attacks on the video maker ...

Waiting on specific issues presented in the video to be poo poo'd .



1) Robin said he was tired of all these revisionist "myth debunkers" on YouTube. That's not an "ad hominem attack".

2) Robin isn't saying that airplanes killed thousands of tanks. He probably views their effectiveness at about the save level as you do.

3) There's nothing to poo-poo. He just thinks that the various experts on YouTube are tiresome and often push personal agendas.

So what?

KL
urumomo
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Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 - 07:26 AM UTC
So what ?

First , Kurt , I think Robin can answer for himself .
You quoted my answer to him .

From the beginning I asked him specifically what he had issue with with the video .
Maybe read his first couple of posts again .
babaoriley
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Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 - 11:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Talk to he very few Egyptians who survived Mitla pass in '67.



I recall reading some article about how the Israelis viewed fighter-bomber attacks on armor, and it seemed like they didn't so much expect to destroy tanks as to knock them out with relatively minor damage, and break up their unit cohesion. The article mentioned the IAA liked to use napalm because it gave them a chance of doing at least some damage to armored vehicles and at times that was all it took.

Photos of Mitla Pass suggest that unarmored and lightly armored vehicles were badly damaged or destroyed, tanks more often just looked abandoned. However photos from across Sinai in 1967 are similar, showing tanks and tank destroyers abandoned by their crews when they found themselves out-maneuvered and cut off from the rest of the army, so that state of affairs wasn't unique to units attacked from the air.

I don't know if the author of the video being discussed here is right when he says few tanks were knocked out by air attack, perhaps. If that was the case then researchers should have found authoritative evidence, like official reports on the effectiveness of fighter bomber attacks on heavy armor, surely one or more armies or air forces conducted such studies which must have been available to the public for decades.

A military photographer I knew many years ago became unpopular with the pilots of NATO fighter bombers when his photographic evidence showed that their claimed hits in training exercises were somewhat exaggerated. So I can accept that air attack didn't destroy as many tanks as the pilots thought, but I also accept that it didn't matter. Damaged tanks with no infantry support and no supplies aren't going to accomplish much, so the Typhoons and Jugs stopped those panzers just as surely as if they had torched each one.

However, while I understand that on the internet everyone is an expert (rolls eyes), the existence of a video posted on YouTube or wherever is not as persuasive as primary evidence. Perhaps the creator of this video is right, but it isn't like he has created an open-and-shut case. An OKW report on tank losses to FBs would be a different matter.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 06:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Again -- this does not refute the data presented in the video .

Robin gave a very visceral response condemning the video and launching into ad hominem attacks on the video maker ...

Waiting on specific issues presented in the video to be poo poo'd .



1) Robin said he was tired of all these revisionist "myth debunkers" on YouTube. That's not an "ad hominem attack".

2) Robin isn't saying that airplanes killed thousands of tanks. He probably views their effectiveness at about the save level as you do.

3) There's nothing to poo-poo. He just thinks that the various experts on YouTube are tiresome and often push personal agendas.

So what?

KL



I've been watching this series of posts now for a couple of days-- I'm not sure why, but I think it has to do with what Kurt has pointed out-- there are an awful lot of folks on YouTube now who are passing themselves off as "experts" in various areas, often lacking true research in depth. As I watched the video a second time, I hit a second YouTube broadcast by the gentleman identified as "Chieftain". As I watched the video, I heard him say AA Weapons were not very effective singly, which is true, but in multiples they can be very effective. What bothered me most (as a former tank officer myself) was his comment that "air defense artillery" only exists to protect tankers. Statements like this are a sign of professional arrogance at thier worst, and at thier best are generalizations and oversimplifications which tend to divert attention away from the "detail" of the subject. Air Defense Artillery exists to defend all tactical and strategic assets, and are not limited to just tanks, which may or may not be a critical asset. Truth is, the existence of a "tank buster" aircraft in most cases is in fact a myth-- its more accurate to say "ground attack", unless we are taking about purpose built aircraft that are "tank busters" like the Hs 129 or the A-10. Most other aircraft are "ground attack" aircraft, and don't differentiate between targets on a road, nor could they in an active environment. To target a single tank is a waste of this asset, which in effect is an "area" weapon. So on one hand, the video may be correct in that "Ground Attack" aircraft may have been limited in effectiveness against hardened targets, but in fact they were very effective against ground targets as a whole. So the whole premise is off. I think this is what Robin was getting at. And although there are references quoted in these videos, "footnotes" to where the data can be found would be nice if one wanted to actually research the data, or the context in which the data was presented by the original researcher. The video was interesting, but was it reflective of the truth?
VR, Russ
joepanzer
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 06:50 AM UTC
It's the same argument about more likely to die in a car crash than in a plane crash.

That's not true.

You're more likely to BE in a car crash, but I'm pretty sure that when a plane crashes, death is almost inevitable.

It's just the way the "expert" wants to spin it.

I agree with Robin.

urumomo
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 06:54 AM UTC
Where does this guy say he's an expert ?

All of the " retorts " are acknowledged by the video maker .

So the guy is wrong but I haven't heard how .Oh well .
I'm now convinced I watched a completely different video
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 09:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Maybe read his first couple of posts again .



I read them once, that was sufficient. There were no ad hominem attacks. However, under the current rules of social media, anything short of slobbering praise is considered a vituperative personal attack, so I can see the confusion.

KL
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 09:28 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Where does this guy say he's an expert ?

All of the " retorts " are acknowledged by the video maker .

So the guy is wrong but I haven't heard how .Oh well .
I'm now convinced I watched a completely different video



Keith, it really seems that you want some sort of exhaustive explanation from . . . Robin? . . . From somebody? . . . as to why this video isn't the definitive, unvarnished truth. I don't think you you are going to get it. It's not because it can't be done, it because nobody [auto-censored]in' cares enough to bother. There's never going to be a definitive conclusion out of this, so the limits of people's interest in arguing it are reached quite quickly. But again, so what?

KL
urumomo
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 09:45 AM UTC
Ha ha - oh you care . too much , Kurt .

Yes , I asked Robin why he flipped out , not you .
He went and collected lid thickness data and then posts more snarky " well I wonder why they increased the roof armor - I wonder why ..."
How is this condemning to the video , Robin ?

Kevlar06
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 11:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Where does this guy say he's an expert ?

All of the " retorts " are acknowledged by the video maker .

So the guy is wrong but I haven't heard how .Oh well .
I'm now convinced I watched a completely different video



Well, when a book (or a video) interrupts the topic at hand to present someone’s “opinion” in defense of an argument, it’s a disguised introduction of that person as an “expert”, this is especially true if they present credentials (as in “I am a tanker” or certificates and memorabilia mounted on walls indicating they have some knowledge of the subject). Now, I never said he was wrong. What I said was he mis-represents the full picture of the nature of “ground attack aircraft" effects by discussing it in regards to “tank busting”. That's not the whole story by a long shot, and I think this is where Robin is coming from. In the video. he presents a valid point— WWII aircraft were less effective against hardened targets like tanks, than is commonly accepted. He uses the example of a “study” (after the fact) of a single white tank targeted by aircraft. This is a simply a single penetration test of a specific weapon system against an armored target. To extrapolate that test into “aircraft were not effective against tanks” is ok (with more research or documentation presented, hopefully). But to imply that during WWII “aircraft are not effective in ground attack” is another argument altogether. It also implies that “tanks” are the most important “component” of the battlefield. Which is simply not the case—they are just another tool. And I think this too, is what Robin is saying. Unfortunately, there’s an incredible amount of information being shelled out on YouTube today that’s readily accepted as “ground truth” when it’s only presented in “short story” format. I admit, this video is very convincing, but it’s not, nor can it be the whole and final story. From a personal standpoint, This is why I shy away from the “History Channel” stuff as well— it’s great for entertainment purposes, but it’s “a mile wide and only an inch deep”, and is far from the full story in many cases. I prefer in depth, footnoted presentations with easily verified research, preferably in written form. I don’t mind the testimony of “experts” who are fully versed and credentialed in thier subject of “expertise”. But, I also keep in mind the old adage— an “ex spurt [sic] is nothing more than “a has-been drip”! With that, I’ll dribble away!
VR, Russ
urumomo
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 12:12 PM UTC
Ya know man ,
he presents the video exactly as busting the very specific myth of hi kill counts on armored vehicles by air .
It's right up front , caveats , nuance and all .
This is a short YT video , not some all encompassing compendium on ground attack I'm sure he'd share sources with you if you contacted him .
Half the video addresses all of the other points of ground attack that you and others have argued .

My confusion is why all the vitriol .
.. and why people have the need to answer for other people
Kraftstoff
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 12:39 PM UTC
There is an excellent book on Brit and Us Tac Air in Italy and NW Europe: "Air Power at the Battlefront" by Ian Gooderson.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 12:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

My confusion is why all the vitriol .
.. and why people have the need to answer for other people



There is no "need" to answer for anyone. That's a figment of your imagination, like the "vitriol" and the "ad hominem attacks" in this thread.

You are coming across like the guy who's been banging of the door of the apartment across the hall for a half hour, yelling for Jimmy to come out and give you your Xbox. I'm not Jimmy, and I'm not answering for Jimmy. I'm just the guy who tells you that Jimmy moved out three weeks ago and that you probably aren't getting your Xbox back.

KL
urumomo
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 01:10 PM UTC
See
you care too much . Told you

I wasn't asking and asking , you involved yourself and then answered for Robin , in Powerpoint even .
There was no need other than your own .
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 01:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text

See
you care too much . Told you



I don't care about the resolution of the argument. It's your obsession with pursuing the argument that I find humorous and weirdly compelling.


Quoted Text

I wasn't asking and asking , you involved yourself and then answered for Robin , in Powerpoint even .
There was no need other than your own .



I never posted, linked, referenced, or even remember seeing a Powerpoint in this thread. Whatever you are thinking about, it wasn't written by me.

See, you have gotten yourself so worked up about this that you can't even keep your imaginary enemies and adversaries straight. When you start claiming that various respondents are not human, but sentient half-badger, half-octopus mutants, that's when it will really get interesting.

KL
Kevlar06
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 02:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Ya know man ,
he presents the video exactly as busting the very specific myth of hi kill counts on armored vehicles by air .
It's right up front , caveats , nuance and all .
This is a short YT video , not some all encompassing compendium on ground attack I'm sure he'd share sources with you if you contacted him .
Half the video addresses all of the other points of ground attack that you and others have argued .

My confusion is why all the vitriol .
.. and why people have the need to answer for other people




"... a short YT video..." is my point exactly. It cannot hope to address all the nuances and implications of WWII ground attack actions, doctrine or even history. I admire the YT poster's attempt to present a topic of interest, but it distorts the topic of "ground attack" into "tank attack", which was neither the sole scope or purpose of the WWII "fighter-bomber". The video isn't "garbage" but it shows only one, very narrow, aspect of "ground attack", when in fact the great majority of "ground attack" actions were against many different targets, most of them soft logistics targets far behind the front lines. Therefore it sustains a "myth" in itself-- that the aircraft and tactics were intentionally designed to combat primarily "the tank" when they were never intended for that purpose at all, but merely used an an expedient method-- when a tank happens to present itself in the target pool. I think that's why some have taken exception to this YT video. Here's my second point---these videos (and there are hundreds like this to be found on the Internet on all kinds of subjects) are not the complete story, and can't be. In "some" cases they can be misleading, or as Kurt mentioned, self-serving, in presenting the "facts" that are not the entire picture. Sorry man, this is just the way I see it, based on my experience, and evidently others do too. If I've stepped on anyone's toes, just forgive and ignore me.
Very Respectfully (VR), Russ
TopSmith
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 02:12 PM UTC
Keith, Chill.

We all agree that youtube is not the end all resource, no more than Wikipedia is. Robin said more evidence is needed for it to be more accurate. OK by most of us. I have seen a lot of interesting things on youtube, some good some crap. I have noticed that as social media (that includes youtube) is more accessible for posters to contribute that the opinion/ hearsay factor continues to rise. I teach Science so I really am an evidence-based sort and requires more evidence, and usually multiple collaborating pieces, to take something as gospel. I think most of us would agree. Otherwise, it is no more than an opinion and a good what if discussion.
babaoriley
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 02:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

My confusion is why all the vitriol .
.. and why people have the need to answer for other people



There is no "need" to answer for anyone. That's a figment of your imagination, like the "vitriol" and the "ad hominem attacks" in this thread.
KL



Yup, the only ad hominem remarks and vitriol I've seen in this thread have come from the guy complaining about ad hominem remarks and vitriol. Full marks for irony.
urumomo
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 02:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text



Yup, the only ad hominem remarks and vitriol I've seen in this thread have come from the guy complaining about ad hominem remarks and vitriol. Full marks for irony.



Where is this post of mine ?
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 08:19 PM UTC
Kaktusas
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 09:40 PM UTC

About the experts, history detectives etc... Its not only Youtube, its also all over the place, tv etc. Too much misleading information, or tales without much facts to back it up. These people dont share their own experience. They share their opinion, but in wrong form. Therefore, some people might think that what once was somebodies opinion, is actually a fact.
Take an example about extraordinary chipping of paint in Tunisian campaign. Somebody says sand, then wind, then third person says sandblasting. Yeah, realy. Then GREEN TIGER story. One says why not, everything can happen during war. Well with history and science it works other way. I hasn't happened, unless one can prove it. But then again, if guy would say: "You know, i think aircraft were not that efficient on attacking armor", i believe it wouldn't sound that convincing on Youtube. There is huge difference between "i know" and "i think".
People should read more books.
d6mst0
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Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 - 11:53 PM UTC
Darius,

I can't agree with you more about people needing to read more books.

I can't say how accurate aircraft were in taking out tanks during WWII but I can quote statements by German Generals about how French and Russian armor counter attacks were beaten back by their airpower during the early years of the war, when the German Air Force controlled the sky's over the battlefields. All these generals were most happy to have their aircraft over the battlefields.
white4doc
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Posted: Friday, June 01, 2018 - 01:05 AM UTC
Social media, YouTube, and Wikipedia are nice tools, but they are also a source of aggrivation and provide a soap box for every self appointed expert with an agenda to spread it far and wide and stir up crap far beyond their circle of friends. The problem with all this is that you have to keep in mind that unless you have access to the same data set you "expert" used you're relying on their integrity to not have manipulated it somehow to prove the conclusion they're trying to reach. Something else to keep in mind, whether or not an air strike destroys a tank the fact that it is rendered out of action whether by damage, lack of supply, crew KIA, abandoned, etc. it is one less tank to be faced. Just my .02, your opinions may vary.