Hosted by Darren Baker
Land Rover Ambulance.
b2nhvi
Joined: June 17, 2016
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Posted: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 - 09:45 PM UTC
Its raining ambulances. I got an M997 and then a friend passed a Tamiya Landrover ambulance. Seems like the only photos I can find are restorations. I know paint job was standard green and black. But were the only "markings" the red crosses and licence plates? I'm leaning towards a BAOR or Northern Ireland vehicle. Did the carry any sort of Regt. marking for the unit assigned to? I saw a restored one painted sand and green, which I've seen on tanks assigned to the training facility in Canada. Did the ship light vehicles over too? (Seems more logical ... and logistical .... to use Canadian vehicles for support) My last potential option is RAF. Is the lettering on the yellow stripe black or blue? Or does anybody have a suggestion for something different?
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
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Posted: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 12:00 AM UTC
Welcome to the mind-numbing world of British Army markings!
Just to recap, with the kit you get the obvious as stated above; in addition you also get the airportability markings on the vehicle wings - these are "Chalk No" (which will be a specific numbered allocated by the movement personnel designating what aircraft it will be assigned to), then Front Axle Weight, Rear Axle weight and All Up Weight; these are literally applied with chalk after the vehicle has been weighed.
Other numbers are "A3" which I believe to be the specific vehicle number within the Field Ambulance, and "3/88". This is the Unit identification number and is a coded reference to the Order of Battle (ORBAT) of a specific unit. In this case the "3" refers to 3rd (UK) Division, at the time of the model this was the main component of the UK Mobile Force, based in UK but earmarked to reinforce BAOR or the Baltic Approaches. The "88" refers to one of the Field Ambulances within the 3 Div ORBAT. I have no idea what the large "A" for the roof is but may tie-in with the individual vehicle number within the Unit - the "A3" referred to.
Now, as for options: you could indeed finish the model as it comes in the recommended black and green scheme, which came into service around 1971, and has remained ever since. I am surprised there's no Bridge Classification plate fitted to the front; this would be a simple disc normally affixed to the radiator grill towards the left (as one views the vehicle). This could be yellow or a pale grey.
A not unattractive scheme would be to depict it in gloss Bronze Green which would just portray the same vehicle and unit but in the pre-green and black scheme. Bridge plate would have to be yellow in this case. You could set this at say, 1968/69.
Tyre pressures could be added but the decals would have to be very small indeed.
Although I never served in Canada I'm pretty sure these vehicles would have deployed there; whether they formed part of the permanent staff or were just a part of the visiting/exercising units I do not know.
To depict a BAOR vehicle you would really have to change it to left hand drive and then identify suitable Unit identification numbers; this would mean that the initial serial number - "3" as discussed above - could still stand as 3rd Division redeployed to BAOR in late 1977. Other initial numbers could be "1", or "4" - these reflecting the other BAOR Divisions; "88" could still stand as the Field Ambulance component of said Divisions, but then you'd have to find suitable decal numbers for the initial numbers, and as I say, really convert the model to LHD.
3rd Division vehicles were deployed to Northern Ireland so this vehicle could stand as it is on operations there; I recall that headlights and the blue lights normally fitted to all emergency vehicles (both military and civilian) were eventually protected by steel mesh, but whether or not that was an immediate fitting upon arrival in the Province I do not know.
Other options are possibly the Gulf War although this particular mark of Land Rover would be getting a bit long in the tooth by then - although I'm sure other British Army modellers will come up with further ideas; I'm afraid I don't know enough about RAF vehicles.
'Hope this helps somewhere along the line.
Brian
Just to recap, with the kit you get the obvious as stated above; in addition you also get the airportability markings on the vehicle wings - these are "Chalk No" (which will be a specific numbered allocated by the movement personnel designating what aircraft it will be assigned to), then Front Axle Weight, Rear Axle weight and All Up Weight; these are literally applied with chalk after the vehicle has been weighed.
Other numbers are "A3" which I believe to be the specific vehicle number within the Field Ambulance, and "3/88". This is the Unit identification number and is a coded reference to the Order of Battle (ORBAT) of a specific unit. In this case the "3" refers to 3rd (UK) Division, at the time of the model this was the main component of the UK Mobile Force, based in UK but earmarked to reinforce BAOR or the Baltic Approaches. The "88" refers to one of the Field Ambulances within the 3 Div ORBAT. I have no idea what the large "A" for the roof is but may tie-in with the individual vehicle number within the Unit - the "A3" referred to.
Now, as for options: you could indeed finish the model as it comes in the recommended black and green scheme, which came into service around 1971, and has remained ever since. I am surprised there's no Bridge Classification plate fitted to the front; this would be a simple disc normally affixed to the radiator grill towards the left (as one views the vehicle). This could be yellow or a pale grey.
A not unattractive scheme would be to depict it in gloss Bronze Green which would just portray the same vehicle and unit but in the pre-green and black scheme. Bridge plate would have to be yellow in this case. You could set this at say, 1968/69.
Tyre pressures could be added but the decals would have to be very small indeed.
Although I never served in Canada I'm pretty sure these vehicles would have deployed there; whether they formed part of the permanent staff or were just a part of the visiting/exercising units I do not know.
To depict a BAOR vehicle you would really have to change it to left hand drive and then identify suitable Unit identification numbers; this would mean that the initial serial number - "3" as discussed above - could still stand as 3rd Division redeployed to BAOR in late 1977. Other initial numbers could be "1", or "4" - these reflecting the other BAOR Divisions; "88" could still stand as the Field Ambulance component of said Divisions, but then you'd have to find suitable decal numbers for the initial numbers, and as I say, really convert the model to LHD.
3rd Division vehicles were deployed to Northern Ireland so this vehicle could stand as it is on operations there; I recall that headlights and the blue lights normally fitted to all emergency vehicles (both military and civilian) were eventually protected by steel mesh, but whether or not that was an immediate fitting upon arrival in the Province I do not know.
Other options are possibly the Gulf War although this particular mark of Land Rover would be getting a bit long in the tooth by then - although I'm sure other British Army modellers will come up with further ideas; I'm afraid I don't know enough about RAF vehicles.
'Hope this helps somewhere along the line.
Brian
Frenchy
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Posted: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 12:50 AM UTC
JohnTapsell
Joined: August 24, 2011
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Posted: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 09:37 AM UTC
Depends on your preference. Uo until the late 1960s, RAF Landrover Ambulances were RAF Blue/Grey with a yellow roof.
Although this is a restored version, the colour scheme is typical of the vehicles before they went 'tactical' in the late 1960s. The green was first introduced by RAF Germany and the rest of the RAF soon followed.
RAF ambulances were fitted with the brushguard and had a special power input socket under the rear slope of the body so that their batteries could be kept fully charged in the hangars on the airfields. The interiors were more basic than the army ambulances since they were only intended to transport aircrew from a crash site on/near the airfield to the base hospital and were only fitted to carry two stretchers (whereas army vehicles were designed to provide some level of emergency care whilst transporting casualties to an aid station that might be some distance from the battlefield).
Regards,
John
Although this is a restored version, the colour scheme is typical of the vehicles before they went 'tactical' in the late 1960s. The green was first introduced by RAF Germany and the rest of the RAF soon followed.
RAF ambulances were fitted with the brushguard and had a special power input socket under the rear slope of the body so that their batteries could be kept fully charged in the hangars on the airfields. The interiors were more basic than the army ambulances since they were only intended to transport aircrew from a crash site on/near the airfield to the base hospital and were only fitted to carry two stretchers (whereas army vehicles were designed to provide some level of emergency care whilst transporting casualties to an aid station that might be some distance from the battlefield).
Regards,
John
trooper82
Joined: September 11, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 12:37 PM UTC
This may help you https://landroverkaty.blogspot.com/p/ambulances.html
Paul
Paul
Chillidragon
Joined: September 20, 2012
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Posted: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 02:11 PM UTC
I'm having a go at one of these, using a Kingfisher Miniatures rear body from their Series III kit (one piece casting, but very nice indeed) on a modified JB Models body. Replacement Series II front end (Kingfisher again) and I need to do something about the doors - no recesses for the handles.
If I may pick your brains again, Brian, would the cab interior be Bronze Green?
If I may pick your brains again, Brian, would the cab interior be Bronze Green?
b2nhvi
Joined: June 17, 2016
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Posted: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 02:35 PM UTC
The link Paul gave prompts a question. Is t my eyes or are the RAF interiors pale green (similar to the M113 interiors) and Army white? Also, would RAF Akrotiri have had any different markings , and would they have been light stone or middle stone base color?
RLlockie
Joined: September 06, 2013
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Posted: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 06:18 PM UTC
I recall passing a depot in Catterick for several years when I lived there and all the ambulances in it were plain NATO green with no black disruptive. Maybe they were camouflaged when in tactical units but unless the covers over the Geneva crosses were deployed, the value of such camouflage would be limited.
As far as I know, all British ones were eau de nil inside the rear body, although I think the rear doors were exterior colour inside.
As far as I know, all British ones were eau de nil inside the rear body, although I think the rear doors were exterior colour inside.
Chillidragon
Joined: September 20, 2012
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Posted: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 08:53 PM UTC
According to what I've read, though Eau de Nile is the correct colour for interiors of closed bodies, ambulances were/are white.
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
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Posted: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 09:12 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I'm having a go at one of these, using a Kingfisher Miniatures rear body from their Series III kit (one piece casting, but very nice indeed) on a modified JB Models body. Replacement Series II front end (Kingfisher again) and I need to do something about the doors - no recesses for the handles.
If I may pick your brains again, Brian, would the cab interior be Bronze Green?
John,
The Kingfisher conversion should make for a nice little model; certainly the cab interior would be Bronze Green with, as far as I can recall, grey seats. Colour-wise that would be a medium grey if that makes sense.
Talking of colours, and I'm sure I'm teaching you to suck eggs here, I use Revell Enamel Bronze Green with a gloss varnish which seems to me to work very well; I should think that would work well enough in the smaller scale too although you may well have a different view factoring in scale colour etc.
Brian
MLD
Joined: July 21, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, December 13, 2018 - 01:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
According to what I've read, though Eau de Nile is the correct colour for interiors of closed bodies, ambulances were/are white.
Fascinating, I'd never heard of Eau de Nile as a paint color...
But a little googling gives me results everywhere from pale green (like the US113 interior color Sea Foam Green, pretty close to Tamiya Sky) to a single bright Robins Egg blue, to pale blue greys, blue-green greys, to well just plain grey..
And a result talking about how hard a color it is to nail down!
Now I have to hunt down a decent answer..
Mike
Chillidragon
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Posted: Thursday, December 13, 2018 - 06:11 AM UTC
Thanks Brian; I suspected that the seats were grey but it's good to see that confirmed.
I think I have a pot of Revell 67 somewhere - but my varnish will be semi-gloss, I think, given the scale.
I think I have a pot of Revell 67 somewhere - but my varnish will be semi-gloss, I think, given the scale.
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 978 posts
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Posted: Thursday, December 13, 2018 - 06:34 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks Brian; I suspected that the seats were grey but it's good to see that confirmed.
I think I have a pot of Revell 67 somewhere - but my varnish will be semi-gloss, I think, given the scale.
John,
Just to be a pedantic b**tard, that should be Revell 65 (for the Bronze Green)- 'hope it goes well, and I'm sure that a semi-gloss will still work well.
Brian
Chillidragon
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Posted: Thursday, December 13, 2018 - 06:37 AM UTC
Ah! That'll be why I couldn't find it then...
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
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Posted: Thursday, December 13, 2018 - 07:18 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextAccording to what I've read, though Eau de Nile is the correct colour for interiors of closed bodies, ambulances were/are white.
Fascinating, I'd never heard of Eau de Nile as a paint color...
But a little googling gives me results everywhere from pale green (like the US113 interior color Sea Foam Green, pretty close to Tamiya Sky) to a single bright Robins Egg blue, to pale blue greys, blue-green greys, to well just plain grey..
And a result talking about how hard a color it is to nail down!
Now I have to hunt down a decent answer..
Mike
I'm pretty sure that Eau de Nil was the official designation from whatever time (possibly WW2 era) but as far as I recall, and I've been racking my brains, only the doors of such vehicles were thus painted. It was fairly bright but pale green and high gloss. I do remember it being the colour of the inside of the doors on the BBVs (Box Bodied Vehicles - ie office trucks)I worked in for a fair chunk of my career, the rest of the vehicle interior - sides, ceiling etc - were white - possibly to maximise light reflection.
I know this doesn't pin down an actual colour, but I'll try and come up with something approaching the real thing; the trouble is, it's a sort of colour chart from memory if you know what I mean; that said, I'm sure that somewhere on the net there'll be images of restored or actual vehicles from an appropriate timeline. I did have some great photos from the War & Peace show some time ago but they've long gone due to a computer wipe-out.
Brian
b2nhvi
Joined: June 17, 2016
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 01:25 AM UTC
I think the interior was pale green. One of the photos I saw was a pale green but couldn't tell if that was the color or if it was gloss white reflecting green from outside. I think I am going with an RAF rig. Who, besides White Ensign / Colorcoats makes a BS381 833 RAF Blue-Grey? Something I don't need a degree in alchemy to mix. A long shot might be one from 24th Field Ambulance in Aden, if I can figure out the colors (Looks like Light Stone base with dark brown,dark green or black.) and license plate numbers
MLD
Joined: July 21, 2002
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 01:51 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextAccording to what I've read, though Eau de Nile is the correct colour for interiors of closed bodies, ambulances were/are white.
Now I have to hunt down a decent answer..
Mike
I'm pretty sure that Eau de Nil was the official designation from whatever time (possibly WW2 era) but as far as I recall, and I've been racking my brains, only the doors of such vehicles were thus painted. It was fairly bright but pale green and high gloss. I do remember it being the colour of the inside of the doors on the BBVs (Box Bodied Vehicles - ie office trucks)I worked in for a fair chunk of my career, the rest of the vehicle interior - sides, ceiling etc - were white - possibly to maximise light reflection.
I know this doesn't pin down an actual colour, but I'll try and come up with something approaching the real thing; the trouble is, it's a sort of colour chart from memory if you know what I mean; that said, I'm sure that somewhere on the net there'll be images of restored or actual vehicles from an appropriate timeline. I did have some great photos from the War & Peace show some time ago but they've long gone due to a computer wipe-out.
Brian
Brian,
Thanks.
I'm nowhere near as far down the rabbit hole of detail on this vehicle as you so obviously are. As much fun as it is to find out a new scrap of information (eau de Nil), it is always even more fun to run across an expert on a topic I know little to nothing about who is so willing to share their passion.
Mike
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 02:01 AM UTC
Quoted Text
A long shot might be one from 24th Field Ambulance in Aden, if I can figure out the colors (Looks like Light Stone base with dark brown,dark green or black.) and license plate numbers
Here are some period color pics of some Landies there that may be helpful (These belonged to the 1st Battalion of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders)...
H.P.
b2nhvi
Joined: June 17, 2016
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 02:15 AM UTC
Second shot looks bronze green and light Stone to me.
Frenchy
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 02:48 AM UTC
b2nhvi
Joined: June 17, 2016
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 07:39 PM UTC
That was awesome, Frenchy. Merci. The LRs from the Paras and the Stalwart had a command flash with a dhow on it. What unit? Also, the paras had it backed with red, the Stalwart's yellow. Stalwart has a suport branch of service flash. Paras have red with a white number (1st Batt?) That having been said , would an ambo there have the "dhow" flash ....and what color backing? Would it have the RAMC branch flash?
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 11:38 PM UTC
Er, have I missed a link of something? I can't see any Paras; however, the Infantry shown in their Land Rovers are, as already identified, 1st Battalion Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (1 A&SH). The badge of a black Arab Dhow on the yellow square is that of British Forces Arabian Peninsula - which included Aden.
The red square on the opposite side denotes Infantry and what looks like a white "8" would be that of a spare number not normally allocated in the rather confusing serial numbering system at the time, but being spare would make sense for a sort of one-off operation like Aden. I'm quite happy to be corrected here.
The "29" 0n the spare wheel would, I'm pretty sure, be a radio call sign, but again, more than happy to be advised differently.
The officer in the first of Frenchy's pictures appears to be Major Patrick Palmer (later a General) who was the Officer Commanding B Company of 1 A&SH. I knew him much later as a Brigadier in Zimbabwe as the overall commander of a British Military & Advisory Training Team but am guilty of getting off track here!
Stone paint over this issued Bronze Green would seem to make perfect sense as well, as identified. Note that the officers wear blue/grey shirts (a sniper's dream one would think) and also have a much paler shade of puttee as was the case back then (and even throughout the 70s).
Any ambulance in Aden would have had the Dhow formation sign and the then Arm of Service badge for a Field Ambulance of a plain black square with possibly a white "22" superimposed. Abbreviated unit titles would normally be added in a white strip across this badge which for such a vehicle would probably have been "such and such (number) Fd Amb" with possibly "RAMC" (Royal Army medical Corps) also appended - if it fitted.
Brian
The red square on the opposite side denotes Infantry and what looks like a white "8" would be that of a spare number not normally allocated in the rather confusing serial numbering system at the time, but being spare would make sense for a sort of one-off operation like Aden. I'm quite happy to be corrected here.
The "29" 0n the spare wheel would, I'm pretty sure, be a radio call sign, but again, more than happy to be advised differently.
The officer in the first of Frenchy's pictures appears to be Major Patrick Palmer (later a General) who was the Officer Commanding B Company of 1 A&SH. I knew him much later as a Brigadier in Zimbabwe as the overall commander of a British Military & Advisory Training Team but am guilty of getting off track here!
Stone paint over this issued Bronze Green would seem to make perfect sense as well, as identified. Note that the officers wear blue/grey shirts (a sniper's dream one would think) and also have a much paler shade of puttee as was the case back then (and even throughout the 70s).
Any ambulance in Aden would have had the Dhow formation sign and the then Arm of Service badge for a Field Ambulance of a plain black square with possibly a white "22" superimposed. Abbreviated unit titles would normally be added in a white strip across this badge which for such a vehicle would probably have been "such and such (number) Fd Amb" with possibly "RAMC" (Royal Army medical Corps) also appended - if it fitted.
Brian
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 978 posts
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 11:51 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextAccording to what I've read, though Eau de Nile is the correct colour for interiors of closed bodies, ambulances were/are white.
Now I have to hunt down a decent answer..
Mike
I'm pretty sure that Eau de Nil was the official designation from whatever time (possibly WW2 era) but as far as I recall, and I've been racking my brains, only the doors of such vehicles were thus painted. It was fairly bright but pale green and high gloss. I do remember it being the colour of the inside of the doors on the BBVs (Box Bodied Vehicles - ie office trucks)I worked in for a fair chunk of my career, the rest of the vehicle interior - sides, ceiling etc - were white - possibly to maximise light reflection.
I know this doesn't pin down an actual colour, but I'll try and come up with something approaching the real thing; the trouble is, it's a sort of colour chart from memory if you know what I mean; that said, I'm sure that somewhere on the net there'll be images of restored or actual vehicles from an appropriate timeline. I did have some great photos from the War & Peace show some time ago but they've long gone due to a computer wipe-out.
Brian
Brian,
Thanks.
I'm nowhere near as far down the rabbit hole of detail on this vehicle as you so obviously are. As much fun as it is to find out a new scrap of information (eau de Nil), it is always even more fun to run across an expert on a topic I know little to nothing about who is so willing to share their passion.
Mike
Mike,
That's very kind of you to say so; I suppose around 45 years in the British Army helps but enthusiast that I am I still get tripped up from time to time.
I believe I've now found a colour solution to those pesky internal doors and would suggest no lighter than Tamiya Acrylic XF 71 Cockpit Green, and no darker than Humbrol Matt Enamel Light Green (the latter may need just a touch of lightening eg with white) - both would require a gloss varnish I would think for 1:35. The caveats don't help much perhaps but this is all from memory.
Of course, this is only really relevant if one wishes to make as a kit with the rear doors open. Any stretchers would be in a pretty dark shade of olive drab canvas, and the wooden handles in a normally worn condition but originally painted Bronze Green. Any blankets would be a medium to dark grey, or a very drab brown, with 3 very thin (almost unachievable in 1:35 I should think) red lines running the centre of the blanket. Medical haversacks for the timescale would be the 37 pattern Small Pack fitted with a cross strap as a satchel-like sling marked with a red cross on a small white circle. Any pillows are I think small and covered in a green plastic; I can't quite remember not having been in many ambulances (thank God) during my time!
Oh, of course, add figures to taste!
Brian
b2nhvi
Joined: June 17, 2016
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Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2018 - 12:44 AM UTC
Nope. Didn't miss anything. I brain farted ad was refer to something I'd seen elsewhere.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4976954/Aden-emergency-fifty-years-Post.htm
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4976954/Aden-emergency-fifty-years-Post.htm
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 978 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2018 - 01:25 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Nope. Didn't miss anything. I brain farted ad was refer to something I'd seen elsewhere.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4976954/Aden-emergency-fifty-years-Post.htm
Some very good pictures there - though in my opinion the TV series was a disgrace.
The maroon background to the Dhow is just Paras being Paras - maroon being their colour.
The Arm of Service plate is correct for an Infantry Battalion within a brigade group - although as it wasn't an Airborne Brigade it should really should have stayed red - but as I say, that's the Paras for you.
Interestingly - well - to me(!) I think that one of the pictures (perimeter fence in background) shows the CO of 1 Para, Mike Walsh who later became a Major General and was one of the divisional commanders during my tenure at 3rd Division. He earned a DSO during his tour in Aden. He was one of the more approachable senior officers and I liked him a lot. I attended his memorial service at Sandhurst in February 2016.
I am now way off track here.
Brian
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