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Italeri M 47-Ancient But Topnotch?
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
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Posted: Sunday, May 26, 2019 - 09:09 AM UTC
In an unrelated thread, I saw some people post that Italeri's old M47 Patton Kit is actually far more accurate than Takom's new one. With that in mind, I'd like to obtain it, but for a kit this old, are there aftermarket improvements?
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 26, 2019 - 09:22 AM UTC
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 26, 2019 - 09:34 AM UTC
Hello, Henri-Pierre!!!
WOW! That was SUPER-QUICK! I was just starting to comb Ebay for extras for this kit- I'm dealing with a guy on Ebay for a book and we were discussing shipping options.
Thanks! I have an ITALERI M47 in my stock, and I was wondering about "extras" for this kit for my own use..! That SCALE-MATES is pretty GOOD!!!
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 26, 2019 - 09:57 AM UTC
Quoted Text
In an unrelated thread, I saw some people post that Italeri's old M47 Patton Kit is actually far more accurate than Takom's new one. With that in mind, I'd like to obtain it, but for a kit this old, are there aftermarket improvements?
Hi, Tom!
I was thinking about buying the TAKOM M47 myself; must be we were reading the same commentary regarding the ITALERI kit, because now, I won't bother spending the extra money on a TAKOM M47! I have the ITALERI kit, and upon opening the sealed box, I find it isn't bad at all! I've had it on one of my "to build shelves" for a LONG TIME, and never touched it... Fancy that!
With Henri-Pierre so graciously providing the link to SCALE-MATES, I'll be getting all of the after-market goodies for this ITALERI M47. I'm going to build a Stateside Unit; how about you? What are you going to do with yours?
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
Armorama: 6,097 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 26, 2019 - 10:22 AM UTC
Looking back over several years, this kit always came up as one of the best classic kits of all time. It still holds up well today, in my opinion, especially if you read the current thread on kit prices. It took an incredibly long time for any aftermarket to come out for this kit. So it was easier to just add your own. I know there's a resin mantlet cover now, but back in the day...
Other things to notice: The brush guards made from wire beat PE any day, and if you want to build this particular example, you don't even need aftermarket decals. The emblems were made by cutting up several pieces of the kit decals.
Other things you can replace easily - the fender braces:
And the front brush guards, by either thinning out the kit pieces, or using flat brass as I did. No need for PE.
I may have to redo this someday as it's well over 20 years old. I'd like to think I could do better now.
Other things to notice: The brush guards made from wire beat PE any day, and if you want to build this particular example, you don't even need aftermarket decals. The emblems were made by cutting up several pieces of the kit decals.
Other things you can replace easily - the fender braces:
And the front brush guards, by either thinning out the kit pieces, or using flat brass as I did. No need for PE.
I may have to redo this someday as it's well over 20 years old. I'd like to think I could do better now.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 26, 2019 - 10:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Looking back over several years, this kit always came up as one of the best classic kits of all time. It still holds up well today, in my opinion, especially if you read the current thread on kit prices. It took an incredibly long time for any aftermarket to come out for this kit. So it was easier to just add your own. I know there's a resin mantlet cover now, but back in the day...
Other things to notice: The brush guards made from wire beat PE any day, and if you want to build this particular example, you don't even need aftermarket decals. The emblems were made by cutting up several pieces of the kit decals.
Other things you can replace easily - the fender braces:
And the front brush guards, by either thinning out the kit pieces, or using flat brass as I did. No need for PE.
I may have to redo this someday as it's well over 20 years old. I'd like to think I could do better now.
Hell, I think you did pretty DA**ED FINE with yours just as it is!
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
Armorama: 3,697 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 26, 2019 - 12:37 PM UTC
[quote]In an unrelated thread, I saw some people post that Italeri's old M47 Patton Kit is actually far more accurate than Takom's new one. With that in mind, I'd like to obtain it, but for a kit this old, are there aftermarket improvements?[/quote
Takom has sharp detail, but they totally screwed up the shape of the glacis plate. The machine gun bulge should blend smoothly into the rest of the panel, but Takom has rendered it like a plateau, with a sharp delineation. It can be fixed with some putty and sanding, but it's a nuisance. Biggest weakness of the Italeri M47 is the massively thick handles on the stowage boxes, and the complete lack of casting texture. Italeri also depicts the original road wheel design, with the stepped reinforcements inside the rim, while Takom depicts the hollow, late-style wheels with a fine rim on the outer edge.
Italeri's kit has rather stiff vinyl track, which depicts a very late rubber block chevron pattern, while the Takom kit depicts the original rubber block track, and is styrene link and length.
Takom has sharp detail, but they totally screwed up the shape of the glacis plate. The machine gun bulge should blend smoothly into the rest of the panel, but Takom has rendered it like a plateau, with a sharp delineation. It can be fixed with some putty and sanding, but it's a nuisance. Biggest weakness of the Italeri M47 is the massively thick handles on the stowage boxes, and the complete lack of casting texture. Italeri also depicts the original road wheel design, with the stepped reinforcements inside the rim, while Takom depicts the hollow, late-style wheels with a fine rim on the outer edge.
Italeri's kit has rather stiff vinyl track, which depicts a very late rubber block chevron pattern, while the Takom kit depicts the original rubber block track, and is styrene link and length.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 26, 2019 - 12:48 PM UTC
I used to think it still held up, much like the Tamiya Chi-ha. After I compared them to their modern equivalents (Takom and DML, respectively), I immediately changed my mind. It's not worth my time to bring the old kits up to where the new kits are when I could spend that time making the new kits even better. My kits got sold ASAP.
The Takom kit does need some reshaping of the glacis, but that is a small effort and not a deal breaker.
KL
The Takom kit does need some reshaping of the glacis, but that is a small effort and not a deal breaker.
KL
JPTRR
Managing Editor
#051
Joined: December 21, 2002
KitMaker: 7,772 posts
Armorama: 2,447 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 26, 2019 - 03:08 PM UTC
Hi Tom,
How good is Italeri's M-47? Let's go to The Man himself: Il_Colonnello. IIRC, he served on M47s. His build thread is outstanding.
M47 "Patton" tank of the Italian Army
How good is Italeri's M-47? Let's go to The Man himself: Il_Colonnello. IIRC, he served on M47s. His build thread is outstanding.
M47 "Patton" tank of the Italian Army
vettejack
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 26, 2019 - 03:25 PM UTC
[quote]
I agree with all of your assessments. I have dealt with some of what you mention and for the benefit of other modelers, I'll share, along with yours, other details that have helped with my builds.
Having 4 of the Italeri M47s on the bench (three years now working them), and a Takom M47 sitting there as well, there are a few plus and minus with either brand. Italeri's M47...we all know this one is still a jewel, even with its 'flaws'. But how Takom got that upper glacis plate that houses the hull machine wrong in the engineering process is beyond me. And of course I'll 'fix' it...I always do.
As far as improvements for the Italeri M47, you'll have to pretty much rely on your talents along with photos from the 'net (I have a few build up photos of my M47s). I've also downloaded the actual M47 Manual...great reference stuff there as well. There are tons of photos out there and I'm still discovering details that I might have to add or correct, on my builds. Its a continuous process.
The Takom M47 has it's own issue(s) as well. One, I feel, is being the turret...I'm not sure its measuring accuracy matches the Italeri M47, or vice versa. One of them seems under/over sized. The suspension: kinda fiddly when getting exact placement/fit on some parts. The road wheels for Italeri...I'm ok with the kit provided ones.
Both kits have two part barrels...go aftermarket there.
Star/Bison decals have killer markings for the M47 now from numerous users (I even managed to get some Greek decals from a Greek company when they were available).
PE is slim, but what you find is manageable to deal with or alter. I also use .020 and .032 wire for handles and lift rings...among other home remedies.
Casting texture for me has been fixed by using Mr. Surfacer.
Adding some foundry/cast markings will do your M47's real justice too. Archer has some...and numbers can be trimmed off sprue gate part numbers.
All in all, both Italeri and Takom have given us a reasonable kit to deal with. Aftermarket could be better, and I'm not sure why it isn't.
Follow the link in Fred's post too, on this page...it will give you some further guidance.
I like both kits, but have a soft spot for the Italeri.
Quoted Text
In an unrelated thread, I saw some people post that Italeri's old M47 Patton Kit is actually far more accurate than Takom's new one. With that in mind, I'd like to obtain it, but for a kit this old, are there aftermarket improvements?[/quote
Takom has sharp detail, but they totally screwed up the shape of the glacis plate. The machine gun bulge should blend smoothly into the rest of the panel, but Takom has rendered it like a plateau, with a sharp delineation. It can be fixed with some putty and sanding, but it's a nuisance. Biggest weakness of the Italeri M47 is the massively thick handles on the stowage boxes, and the complete lack of casting texture. Italeri also depicts the original road wheel design, with the stepped reinforcements inside the rim, while Takom depicts the hollow, late-style wheels with a fine rim on the outer edge.
I agree with all of your assessments. I have dealt with some of what you mention and for the benefit of other modelers, I'll share, along with yours, other details that have helped with my builds.
Having 4 of the Italeri M47s on the bench (three years now working them), and a Takom M47 sitting there as well, there are a few plus and minus with either brand. Italeri's M47...we all know this one is still a jewel, even with its 'flaws'. But how Takom got that upper glacis plate that houses the hull machine wrong in the engineering process is beyond me. And of course I'll 'fix' it...I always do.
As far as improvements for the Italeri M47, you'll have to pretty much rely on your talents along with photos from the 'net (I have a few build up photos of my M47s). I've also downloaded the actual M47 Manual...great reference stuff there as well. There are tons of photos out there and I'm still discovering details that I might have to add or correct, on my builds. Its a continuous process.
The Takom M47 has it's own issue(s) as well. One, I feel, is being the turret...I'm not sure its measuring accuracy matches the Italeri M47, or vice versa. One of them seems under/over sized. The suspension: kinda fiddly when getting exact placement/fit on some parts. The road wheels for Italeri...I'm ok with the kit provided ones.
Both kits have two part barrels...go aftermarket there.
Star/Bison decals have killer markings for the M47 now from numerous users (I even managed to get some Greek decals from a Greek company when they were available).
PE is slim, but what you find is manageable to deal with or alter. I also use .020 and .032 wire for handles and lift rings...among other home remedies.
Casting texture for me has been fixed by using Mr. Surfacer.
Adding some foundry/cast markings will do your M47's real justice too. Archer has some...and numbers can be trimmed off sprue gate part numbers.
All in all, both Italeri and Takom have given us a reasonable kit to deal with. Aftermarket could be better, and I'm not sure why it isn't.
Follow the link in Fred's post too, on this page...it will give you some further guidance.
I like both kits, but have a soft spot for the Italeri.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 26, 2019 - 08:16 PM UTC
Hi, John!
Thanks for all that info. I have NO problems with texture- I started fiddling with texture way back in the early 1970s with an old MONOGRAM M48 after reading one of the late great Shep Paine's modeling brochures that came with some of MONOGRAM's older kits. I used TESTORS Liquid Cement and dabbled the surface with a cheapie TESTORS nylon-bristle brush. It worked. The other stuff, such as grab handles and such, just came as "second nature" with me- I'd been scratch-building Cockpits for some of my old 1/48 MONOGRAM aircraft kits since the 1960s... "Imagineering" and "gizmology", (Shep Paine terms), always came easy for me.
Today, of course we have so much more reference material to go by. I'm sure that I can much more than "get by" with the ITALERI M47 kit... You guys should see what I managed to do with an old ITALERI M24 that I built back in the early '90s...
Thanks for all that info. I have NO problems with texture- I started fiddling with texture way back in the early 1970s with an old MONOGRAM M48 after reading one of the late great Shep Paine's modeling brochures that came with some of MONOGRAM's older kits. I used TESTORS Liquid Cement and dabbled the surface with a cheapie TESTORS nylon-bristle brush. It worked. The other stuff, such as grab handles and such, just came as "second nature" with me- I'd been scratch-building Cockpits for some of my old 1/48 MONOGRAM aircraft kits since the 1960s... "Imagineering" and "gizmology", (Shep Paine terms), always came easy for me.
Today, of course we have so much more reference material to go by. I'm sure that I can much more than "get by" with the ITALERI M47 kit... You guys should see what I managed to do with an old ITALERI M24 that I built back in the early '90s...
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 26, 2019 - 08:58 PM UTC
I've built the Testors rebox back in the day and I built one last winter and have another in the bullpen warming up. Haven't decided what I want to do with them. I'm thinking doing one as the "king tiger" from The Battle of The Bulge and the other OOB. Detail is soft compared to todays kit and like all kits from that era grab handles and other handle are out of scale. And of course the good old rubber band tracks. But it is an enjoyable build.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Monday, May 27, 2019 - 12:09 AM UTC
This is a forty year old kit. The first reviews noted the thick grab handles and recommended replacement with wire. Remember Tamiya kit of similar vintage would be their original M4A3 Sherman. You know, the ond with no grab handles or periscope guards or turret 50 caliber storage or blade sights. All which are present on the M47. On the Italeri M47 you can even show the 50 caliber stowed in the flip clip on the turret top. But the clips for the coax cover are completely absent. Of course my Italeri was built as NJ Army National Guard circa 1956, 20 years ago. It's finally going to find a home in a 50th armored division exhibit.
In case it matters the Takom and Italeri M47s are slightly different production variants. The Tskom is earlier with the road wheels and option for the single ladder turret grab handles but with options for the updated turret storage. The Italeri is a later production one mostly seen in export countries.
And then the yucky Renwal one is initial production as pictured in the original edition of the manual.
In case it matters the Takom and Italeri M47s are slightly different production variants. The Tskom is earlier with the road wheels and option for the single ladder turret grab handles but with options for the updated turret storage. The Italeri is a later production one mostly seen in export countries.
And then the yucky Renwal one is initial production as pictured in the original edition of the manual.
ttwells
Joined: June 03, 2006
KitMaker: 316 posts
Armorama: 77 posts
Posted: Monday, May 27, 2019 - 01:13 AM UTC
I have built four Takom M47s - two E/M models and two of the G versions. I find their kits are very good - some fiddly parts besides the PE and the tracks... well challenging b/c if you push the links too close together - you'll end up short. I have never built the italeri one - why? I just don't know... but now I see the that the kit may be one for the list. Thanks for sharing!
PS if nothing else - I have lots of spare parts from the Takom kits to "update" the Italeri one as needed...
PS if nothing else - I have lots of spare parts from the Takom kits to "update" the Italeri one as needed...
Garrand
Joined: October 27, 2009
KitMaker: 195 posts
Armorama: 194 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - 04:27 AM UTC
I have the Italeri kit, as well as some AM goodies for it. I started collecting things for the project before Takom's kit dropped. I want to build it as a French machine during the Suez Crisis. I have decals for it already. One sticking point is good pictures of the added on deck to the hull rear I understand many French M47s had? Any good pictures of this so I can scratch one up?
Damon.
Damon.
IDFPaul
Joined: April 01, 2008
KitMaker: 43 posts
Armorama: 36 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 02, 2019 - 05:33 AM UTC
I have a few good pics on my computer that I found googling M-47 Suez crisis, Operation Musketeer and 1956. Try that. I am always hesitant to post pics which aren't mine to the web.
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 02, 2019 - 09:20 AM UTC
marcb
Joined: March 25, 2006
KitMaker: 1,244 posts
Armorama: 1,226 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 02, 2019 - 07:10 PM UTC
Interested to read this. Is there a link?
Shapeways makes some stuff for the Italeri kit, inc a gun breech IIRC.
Shapeways makes some stuff for the Italeri kit, inc a gun breech IIRC.
zapper
Joined: October 18, 2005
KitMaker: 745 posts
Armorama: 734 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 02, 2019 - 09:45 PM UTC
Def Model have released three sets for the Italeri M47. The fit of their canvas cover to the turret is excellent.
DM35024 "M47 Patton Detail up set- with stowage"
http://defmodel.com/catalog/htm/dm35024.html
DK35003 "R.O.K M47 PATTON Detail up set" (sold out according to their homepage = ebay)
http://defmodel.com/catalog/htm/dk35003.html
DK35006 "R.O.K M47 PATTON Canvas/Searchlight set"
http://defmodel.com/catalog/htm/dk35006.html
Cheers
/E
DM35024 "M47 Patton Detail up set- with stowage"
http://defmodel.com/catalog/htm/dm35024.html
DK35003 "R.O.K M47 PATTON Detail up set" (sold out according to their homepage = ebay)
http://defmodel.com/catalog/htm/dk35003.html
DK35006 "R.O.K M47 PATTON Canvas/Searchlight set"
http://defmodel.com/catalog/htm/dk35006.html
Cheers
/E
JmeDubya
Joined: July 25, 2013
KitMaker: 124 posts
Armorama: 124 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 08, 2019 - 12:51 AM UTC
Adding to what Zapper says...
To me the biggest weakness of the Italeri kit is the lack of mantle and barrel canvas. It is included in the various Takom kits. If you’re not good a scratch building and want this major correction after market, Def Model is your only option. By the time you add this detail kit and shipping for both, the price of the Italeri kit is actually higher.
My $0.02, FWIW.
To me the biggest weakness of the Italeri kit is the lack of mantle and barrel canvas. It is included in the various Takom kits. If you’re not good a scratch building and want this major correction after market, Def Model is your only option. By the time you add this detail kit and shipping for both, the price of the Italeri kit is actually higher.
My $0.02, FWIW.
JPTRR
Managing Editor#051
Joined: December 21, 2002
KitMaker: 7,772 posts
Armorama: 2,447 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 08, 2019 - 01:08 AM UTC
Someday I will build my Italeri M47. This thread has been saved into my resource tab.
I think I will still build my yucky Renwal model, too, even though this emoji looks more realistic:
I think I will still build my yucky Renwal model, too, even though this emoji looks more realistic:
JPTRR
Managing Editor#051
Joined: December 21, 2002
KitMaker: 7,772 posts
Armorama: 2,447 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 08, 2019 - 01:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI may have to redo this someday as it's well over 20 years old. I'd like to think I could do better now.
Hell, I think you did pretty DA**ED FINE with yours just as it is!
Robert, I concur 100%!
barkingdigger
Associate Editor#013
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
Armorama: 3,403 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 08, 2019 - 01:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Interested to read this. Is there a link?
Shapeways makes some stuff for the Italeri kit, inc a gun breech IIRC.
Yep - those are mine and can be found at my Shapeways shop.
My latest M47 build has a full interior and is currently stalled at the canvas mantlet stage as my mojo is temporarily elsewhere. I took a little care and found that the fit of the upper hull (with rear plate added) onto the lower hull is spot-on perfect, so I can paint the whole kit as assemblies to be glued up later - not bad for 40-year-old tooling!
marcb
Joined: March 25, 2006
KitMaker: 1,244 posts
Armorama: 1,226 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 08, 2019 - 04:02 AM UTC
Tom,
Do you know of any metal barrel for the Italeri kit?
I know MR models makes one for the Takom kit.
Do you know of any metal barrel for the Italeri kit?
I know MR models makes one for the Takom kit.
barkingdigger
Associate Editor#013
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
Armorama: 3,403 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 08, 2019 - 07:02 AM UTC
Nope - I just used the kit barrel and some TLC. You could try grafting the MR barrel onto the Italeri mount, but it might take a bit of fettling.
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