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If Revell And Monogram Are The Same Company
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2019 - 10:25 AM UTC
Are the Revell M48A2 and Monogram M48A2 kits the same?
Tank1812
Joined: April 29, 2014
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2019 - 11:34 AM UTC
From scalemates, looking at the instructions they are not the same.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2019 - 01:25 PM UTC
The Monogram M48A2 was released in the early 1960s, and is closer to 1/32 scale since it was released as part of the Monogram military vehicle series. The Revell Germany M48A2 is adevertised in 1/35 scale, and is an entirely different and new mold. Some of the confusion here is because Monogram bought Revell in the late 1990s but kept the Revell label. Revell Germany (Revell Gmbh) is an entirely separate company. This was further exacerbated when Hobbico purchased Revell-Monogram, and reissued many of the old kits, still under the Monogram label, but later under the Revell label. You can still find the old 1/32 kit at places like Hobby Lobby. Further confusing the issue is the fact the the old kit has been also been passed off as a 1/35 scale in the past (along with their Jeep and M35 truck, by Revell Germany no less). So, in short, the newer Revell Germany kit is a different mold than the Monogram kit. I'm not sure if the molds for the older kit were acquired by Revell Germany when Hobbico went out of business. Hopefully, if it is reissued, they'll clarify the scale and the origins of the kit so it can't be confused with the newer kit. If you have a kit number, it may be easier to help differentiate between kits.
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2019 - 01:54 PM UTC
It would be great to have a Shep Payne build using only the old Monogram 1/32nd scale tanks. Any modifications should be handmade. no aftermarket.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2019 - 02:41 PM UTC
The original Monogram M48A2 IS NOT 1/32 scale.
Tamiya 1/35 parts are drop fit with no modifications. Parts meant for other 1/35 M48 that we know are 1/35 match up almost exactly.
The original Monogram 1950s-70s armor kits are from scaled from that period US Army recognition scale. 1/34. Some kits match better than others.
It's weird, strange and out there but it's no more 1/32 than the Tamiya M48A3.
Compare the old Monogram M48A2 to the new Revell Germany one and you'll see how close they are in size.
Then compare it to a REAL 1/32 Patton, the old Renwal M47 and you'll see your scale difference.
I have two Monogram, a ROG and a Tamiya M48 all together. The only one that looks out of scale is the far too high suspension on the Tamiya kit.
Tamiya 1/35 parts are drop fit with no modifications. Parts meant for other 1/35 M48 that we know are 1/35 match up almost exactly.
The original Monogram 1950s-70s armor kits are from scaled from that period US Army recognition scale. 1/34. Some kits match better than others.
It's weird, strange and out there but it's no more 1/32 than the Tamiya M48A3.
Compare the old Monogram M48A2 to the new Revell Germany one and you'll see how close they are in size.
Then compare it to a REAL 1/32 Patton, the old Renwal M47 and you'll see your scale difference.
I have two Monogram, a ROG and a Tamiya M48 all together. The only one that looks out of scale is the far too high suspension on the Tamiya kit.
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2019 - 04:01 PM UTC
The old Monogram kit is definitely 1/35. I still have a few in the stash.
This old thread proves nothing, other than two people can measure the same thing and get entirely different results. I'll stick by mine.
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/164843&ord=1&page=2
This old thread proves nothing, other than two people can measure the same thing and get entirely different results. I'll stick by mine.
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/164843&ord=1&page=2
Removed by original poster on 09/01/19 - 04:47:16 (GMT).
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2019 - 04:57 PM UTC
Ok, I’ll agree it’s not 1/32. But when I compare my ‘65 issue Monogram M48 to Tamiya’s M48, the Monogram tracks and road wheels are different . It’s not 1/32, but it's not 1/35 either. The sprocket won't line up with AFV club tracks either. The figures are also noticeably larger than 1/35 figures. But, I suppose the finess of the Monogram kit when compared to Tamiya, Dragon or Revell 1/35 kits is a bit more "coarse" which may account for fidelity of scale. In any event, in answer to the original post, it's an entirely different kit than the Revell Germany more modern Revell Germany issue. However, I believe Revell Germany also reissued the Monogram kit at some point— so which kit numbers are we referring to?
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
barkingdigger
Associate Editor
#013
Joined: June 20, 2008
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2019 - 10:36 PM UTC
Revell 03206 and 03236 kits are both new-tool, and bear no relation to the old Monogram kit. I reviewed the 03206 kit here.
Steve, do you know any reason why the official recognition model scale was set at 1:34? Seems an odd scale, not derived by dividing full-size units by anything sensible...
Steve, do you know any reason why the official recognition model scale was set at 1:34? Seems an odd scale, not derived by dividing full-size units by anything sensible...
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 978 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2019 - 01:39 AM UTC
For what it's worth I managed to wrestle the Monogram kit into something fairly reasonable as a Bundeswehr A2; it was sometime ago but in addition to old-fashioned plastic card, stretched sprue, Milliput etc, I borrowed a set of rubber band tracks from the Tamiya kit and they fitted perfectly. I had planned on separate links but went for the easy option in the end. I also used the odd item from the Lo Models accessory kit. I should have modified the stowage box handles and didn't, which I now regret.
It did indeed seem to scale out at around 1:35 so I was pleased enough with the result. I modified the Dragon Panzer Crew LAH Russia 1943 - one of the most useful sets around as they're effectively in coveralls - and job done.
The biggest bugbear was manufacturing a stowed camouflage net appropriate for the time (Hessian strip-type) but other than that it was an enjoyable build, and if you're prepared to undertake a bit of modelling effort I would recommend this ancient kit.
Brian
It did indeed seem to scale out at around 1:35 so I was pleased enough with the result. I modified the Dragon Panzer Crew LAH Russia 1943 - one of the most useful sets around as they're effectively in coveralls - and job done.
The biggest bugbear was manufacturing a stowed camouflage net appropriate for the time (Hessian strip-type) but other than that it was an enjoyable build, and if you're prepared to undertake a bit of modelling effort I would recommend this ancient kit.
Brian
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2019 - 02:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Steve, do you know any reason why the official recognition model scale was set at 1:34? Seems an odd scale, not derived by dividing full-size units by anything sensible...
By Rob Gronovius in FineScale Modeler:
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Monday, February 25, 2013 9:48 AM
Monogram's use of 1/35 scale pre-dates Tamiya's use of 1/35 scale. Many now-defunct Japanese model companies copied Monogram kits and motorized them. Because of this, 1/35 scale was the established scale in Japan for motorized tank kits and Tamiya chose that scale because of the size required to house the motorization and batteries.
Tamiya did not begin manufacturing plastic models until 1959. By then, Monogram models already had a line of 1/35 scale military models that included the M48 Patton tank, M3A1 halftrack, M16 Halftrack (really a 2x.50 cal M13), M29 Amphibious Weasel, M34 2 1/2 ton truck, Infantry troops and a Jeep with 37mm anti-tank gun as early as 1956-58.
By the 1970s, Monogram switched to 1/32 scale to match the Renwal kits and the new Airfix 1/32 scale armor kits (probably the best 1/32 scale armor kits of the era were the 1976 Airfix kits). The kits released in 1/32 scale were the M4 Hedgehog, M4A1 Calliope, Panzer IV, Flakpanzer, Sturmpanzer, Jagdpanzer IV, M8 Greyhound, Sd.Kfz 232, M3 Grant and M3 Lee. Many of Monogram's previous 1/35 scale kits were reissued magically as 1/32 scale.
By the late 70s, Tamiya became the premier armor model manufacturer as the US and UK stopped making new military models in the 1/32-1/35 scale range. The Italian companies Italeri and Esci continued to develop the 1/35 scale line as well. Italeri's armor line still contains 1/35 scale armor kits from some of those now-defunct Japanese model companies.
About this time, Academy showed up and began releasing pirated copies of Tamiya's armor kits.
As to why Monogram originally chose 1/35, I haven't been able to find the answer to that question.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2019 - 03:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Are the Revell M48A2 and Monogram M48A2 kits the same?
The old 1950s Monogram M48A2 is reissued by Revell (the merged Revell-Monogram company), but they still use the Monogram name on this particular kit. It is simply labeled as the M48A2 Patton Tank and has the "The Love Bug" name on the turret. It is 1/35 scale; I'm building one with the old Lo Model Us Tank Conversion Accessory M48A2/M48A2GA2/M60A3 conversion set to make an M48A2GA2.
Of course, after I started that conversion, there was a new kit of it released.
The new tool Revell of Germany M48A2/A2C (#03206) and M48A2GA2 (#03236) are the same tank kits with a sprue swap for the detail differences. Both feature modern Bundeswehr markings, but the A2/A2C also includes several US Army markings and IDF markings.
I've seen the Bundeswehr version in progress, and it looks nice.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2019 - 05:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Revell 03206 and 03236 kits are both new-tool, and bear no relation to the old Monogram kit. I reviewed the 03206 kit here.
Steve, do you know any reason why the official recognition model scale was set at 1:34? Seems an odd scale, not derived by dividing full-size units by anything sensible...
This is the United States army we're talking about.
It may have been based on the size of a vehicle at a certain observation distance. There were also promotional model cars and trucks in 1/34 scale going back into the 1930s as well.
It could be something as stupid as being the scale a typical model would fit into a shoe box just like 1/72 was partially chosen for aircraft ID because the models fit into a suitcase without disassembly.
There were sets of soft foam ID models that the US Army had going into the 1980s and they were marked 1/34 scale. I thought it odd that they weren't 1/35 copying off of Tamiya but there it was.
The Monogram kit is a touch longer and wider as if it really is one scale larger. Some things line up and others are off ever so slightly. The sprockets are simplified so it's no wonder they don't fit aftermarket tracks. I replaced the sprockets on my two kits and one also had all the road wheels switched out. I used the Lo model kit to make a 1970s era M48A2G with all the Bundeswehr modifications.
Supposedly Revell Germany is releasing that third version of their M48A2 kit this year? It would be the M48A2 kit with the lights, grenade launchers and bustle rack box from the M48A2GA2 kit. The sprues are laid out out so the A2GA2 and plain A2G bits are on separate partial sprues.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2019 - 09:50 AM UTC
And don’t forget. The US Army and Monogram came well before Tamiya vehicle models came on the scene, so logically, 1/34 should have been the “blueprint design” for Armor models, but it wasn’t. Renewal went with 1/32, Adams went with 1/40– And there’s the whole “box scale” thing. It might be better to ponder on Tamiya’s choice of 1/35 scale. I believe more of the story lies there.
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
Removed by original poster on 09/01/19 - 22:32:59 (GMT).
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2019 - 10:58 AM UTC
Rather like the question of why standard paper is 8x11.5 inches, or why household electricity is 120VAC in the USA (as opposed to higher in Europe) when you think about it.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2019 - 11:04 AM UTC
Quoted Text
And don’t forget. The US Army and Monogram came well before Tamiya vehicle models came on the scene, so logically, 1/34 should have been the “blueprint design” for Armor models, but it wasn’t. Renewal went with 1/32, Adams went with 1/40– And there’s the whole “box scale” thing. It might be better to ponder on Tamiya’s choice of 1/35 scale. I believe more of the story lies there.
VR, Russ
You forget the fact that before they did their own kits Tamiya churned out copies of the Monogram armor. They were already working in that scale before Tamiya-San decided to choose it over 1/40 and 1/32. And there's another not quite 1/32 but touch bigger than 1/40 classic tank kit. The Revell Sherman tank.
It was a box scale that didn't survive. Look at 1/64. It was even a train gauge but it never took off and now we have those 28mm wargame scales 1/56?
And the poor one true scale almost of 1/76.
And then there's 1/48 armor. Everybody thought it was dead when Bandai went all sci-fi and then Tamiya adopts it and it's a renaissance.
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2019 - 11:12 AM UTC
In 1961 the 1/35 Panther tank became Tamiya's first tank model. No copies of Monogram, although other now defunct Japanese companies did copy Monogram, and even motorized the kits. The Panther tank became 1/35 by chance - it was the width of two C cell batteries.
tangodown
#494
Joined: August 08, 2018
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2019 - 11:23 AM UTC
Quoted Text
It would be great to have a Shep Payne build using only the old Monogram 1/32nd scale tanks. Any modifications should be handmade. no aftermarket.
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Campaigns&file=index&req=showcontent&id=1006 linkname
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2019 - 12:10 PM UTC
Quoted Text
And don’t forget. The US Army and Monogram came well before Tamiya vehicle models came on the scene, so logically, 1/34 should have been the “blueprint design” for Armor models, but it wasn’t. Renewal went with 1/32, Adams went with 1/40– And there’s the whole “box scale” thing. It might be better to ponder on Tamiya’s choice of 1/35 scale. I believe more of the story lies there.
VR, Russ
I read a long time ago that 1/35 scale was chosen because it worked out easier in metric. I've never tried to work that one out though.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2019 - 12:28 PM UTC
Quoted Text
In 1961 the 1/35 Panther tank became Tamiya's first tank model. No copies of Monogram, although other now defunct Japanese companies did copy Monogram, and even motorized the kits. The Panther tank became 1/35 by chance - it was the width of two C cell batteries.
Monogram halftracks, M48 and the Revell Sherman were all copied in Tamiya's early days. Or at least there are boxes labeled "Tamiya" with close facsimiles of those kits modified for the motor and batteries but retaining the original scale.
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2019 - 12:29 PM UTC
1/35 scale works out to 8.709 mm per foot. I think Chinese calculus would be easier than using that ratio.
MassimoTessitori
Joined: March 14, 2013
KitMaker: 278 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2019 - 06:52 PM UTC
I think that 1/35 is a consequence of a proportion on a metric scale.
The base idea is to start from the scale 1/100.
Dividing 100 for the square root of 2, you have 70 (about).
Dividing again, you have 50.
Dividing again, you have 35 (about).
All these scales had some followers in the '60s (ex. Tamiya planes in 1/100, 1/70 and 1/50), but some hadn't success and 1/50 was replaced by 1/48, and 1/70 was replaced by 1/72.
The base idea is to start from the scale 1/100.
Dividing 100 for the square root of 2, you have 70 (about).
Dividing again, you have 50.
Dividing again, you have 35 (about).
All these scales had some followers in the '60s (ex. Tamiya planes in 1/100, 1/70 and 1/50), but some hadn't success and 1/50 was replaced by 1/48, and 1/70 was replaced by 1/72.
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2019 - 07:10 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Revell 03206 and 03236 kits are both new-tool, and bear no relation to the old Monogram kit. I reviewed the 03206 kit here.
Steve, do you know any reason why the official recognition model scale was set at 1:34? Seems an odd scale, not derived by dividing full-size units by anything sensible...
During the Second World War, the Army recognition model scale was 1/36th (one inch equals three feet), and the slush-cast white metal recognition models were reissued by the private manufacturers for years after the war as children's toys. These would have been familiar to Monogram's designers. Perhaps 1/35th was an attempt to make the scale a bit less "British" for sale in metric countries (though the metric system favors units that end in zero, not five). And of course, in 1/35th scale, a 5'10" man is exactly two inches tall.
I don't have information on current recognition models, though 1/34th is a scale sometimes favored for some of the more expensive die-cast metal models of commercial vehicles. No idea why, unless it's just the short guys' revenge (a 5'8" man is two inches tall in that scale).
MassimoTessitori
Joined: March 14, 2013
KitMaker: 278 posts
Armorama: 278 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2019 - 07:23 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I don't have information on current recognition models, though 1/34th is a scale sometimes favored for some of the more expensive die-cast metal models of commercial vehicles. No idea why, unless it's just the short guys' revenge (a 5'8" man is two inches tall in that scale)
It is a compromise between 1/32 and 1/35, meant to couple the models both with figures and models in 1/32 and 35 from other manufacturers.
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