A while back, surfing the internet, I ran across someone's contention that there were two tones of green used as part of panzer camo.
I didn't give it much thought and can't remember where I saw it.
Then I ran across this as linked on M-L:
http://footage.framepool.com/en/shot/843760159-bombed-out-depot-repository-rusty-time-of-occupation
What am I seeing here?
At 2:20, you can see a Panther hull with what appears to be road wheels of two distinctly different colors of green.
Of course, I am willing to allow for the faded film altering the colors, etc. But there are two different shades here, definitely.
And of course, I know that the late T. Jentz seemed to have delivered the final word on camo, but as we know, some issues weren't completely settled and he was not infallible. For instance, I have my serious doubts about a four-color scheme of red primer, brown, olive green and dark yellow.
Thoughts?
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End war two-tone green German camo?
404NotFound
Joined: March 08, 2007
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Posted: Thursday, September 26, 2019 - 10:55 AM UTC
PzDave
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Posted: Thursday, September 26, 2019 - 11:30 AM UTC
At that point in the construction of the tank maybe it is unpainted or just primer. I only saw a black and white film.
Biggles2
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Posted: Thursday, September 26, 2019 - 11:30 AM UTC
That film looks kinda faded. I would suggest that it is Dunkelgelb and Olivegrun.
marcb
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Posted: Thursday, September 26, 2019 - 11:51 AM UTC
Later in the war the Germans also used a grey green zinc primer. See the hulls and some of the wheels.
ivanhoe6
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Posted: Thursday, September 26, 2019 - 10:52 PM UTC
Diminishing paint stocks ? Maybe stretching the green paint by adding dunkelgelb?
404NotFound
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Posted: Friday, September 27, 2019 - 02:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Diminishing paint stocks ? Maybe stretching the green paint by adding dunkelgelb?
Sounds plausible. Now to quote Jentz, the orders were for panzers to be finished in an overall olive green by this point and then I assume the camo was then to be applied.
To my eye, the famous photo of the camouflaged Schmalturm appears to be in a base coat of olive green with dark yellow and another darker color applied.
That the hull appears painted to me and not primered is suggested by two things: one, the different color wheels of course. We are conditioned by seeing models with all sorts of red primer turrets, wheels, hatches and other fixtures, but there is no actual evidence for this modeling fad that I know of — this highly conspicuous mix of primer, be it red oxide or zinc oxide and camouflage color. That said, I am sure some will logically suggest the latter.
And to that, secondly, the ACHTUNG! etc. stencil on the rear of he hull is conspicuous by its absence, suggesting to me that it's already painted over.
And I didn't even mention the strange five-arm sprocket on the one hull which seems to be the elephant in the room.
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Friday, September 27, 2019 - 05:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
That film looks kinda faded. I would suggest that it is Dunkelgelb and Olivegrun.
Completely agree Biggles. It would be very difficult to make any hard and fast judgements from such a faded piece of film, but that would be the most logical conclusion.
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
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Posted: Friday, September 27, 2019 - 06:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I know that the late T. Jentz seemed to have delivered the final word on camo, but as we know, some issues weren't completely settled and he was not infallible.
Thoughts?
My thoughts are that Mr Jentz had more experience in these matters than you or any other contributor to this website and all you are doing is putting forth some hearsay comments that isn't backed up by any hard evidence.
The images are of the destroyed Panther and Jagdpanther production line with those Panthers still in a state of assembly without their final paint finish. It is well known that other factories supplied component parts and as such the road wheels (the only parts showing two tones) could have been sourced from two different places each supplying parts either in different primer finish or base colour or both.
I see no evidence to support your theory that two colours of green were used, especially in the faded film you have linked to.
alanmac
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Posted: Friday, September 27, 2019 - 06:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
And I didn't even mention the strange five-arm sprocket on the one hull which seems to be the elephant in the room.
I assume you mean at 1min 48 secs.
You are aware that the drive sprocket came in two parts? The outer teeth and the inner hub section.
It looks to me like a toothed ring outer just propped up against a hull with other artifacts shown through the empty centre which you are saying is the hub, the centre of which if it was one is way to small.
If it was fitted to the Panther you would see more of a top view so to me its just the toothed ring amongst all the other parts spread around the destroyed factory, leaning against either the Panther hull or something behind it.
Headhunter506
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Posted: Friday, September 27, 2019 - 08:31 AM UTC
This is taken from allied footage(the film in the link. The Spiegel TV version doesn't have the annoying and BS watermarks) inside the Daimler-Benz Werk 40 in Berlin Marienfelde.
What is seen isn't green paint. As a matter of fact, it's not even green. It's a coating of zinc phosphate. Using zinc phosphate to provide a thin, corrosion-resistant barrier on steel plate that will be shipped within a relatively short time doesn't require oiling the coated metal. The phosphate coating was sprayed onto rolled steel sheets at the mills to prevent rust formation while the sheets were stored prior to being shipped to the different end users. It isn't economically practical to assemble steel sheets which were pre-primed with lead primer since the sheets need to be machined, cut, welded, etc., damaging the primer coat in the process. These customers would coat finished hulls, and other parts, with regular primer after major assembly work was completed. What you see in that photo is a crapload of hulls which never reached the point of getting sprayed with lead primer because the factory changed ownership.
There were a couple discussions on this very subject at Missing-Lynx:
Mystery Panther sprocket at DB Werk 40 in April 1945
Info in the above link will also answer the question of the sprocket.
A ‘big question’: Dunkelgelb – did it evolve?
What is seen isn't green paint. As a matter of fact, it's not even green. It's a coating of zinc phosphate. Using zinc phosphate to provide a thin, corrosion-resistant barrier on steel plate that will be shipped within a relatively short time doesn't require oiling the coated metal. The phosphate coating was sprayed onto rolled steel sheets at the mills to prevent rust formation while the sheets were stored prior to being shipped to the different end users. It isn't economically practical to assemble steel sheets which were pre-primed with lead primer since the sheets need to be machined, cut, welded, etc., damaging the primer coat in the process. These customers would coat finished hulls, and other parts, with regular primer after major assembly work was completed. What you see in that photo is a crapload of hulls which never reached the point of getting sprayed with lead primer because the factory changed ownership.
There were a couple discussions on this very subject at Missing-Lynx:
Mystery Panther sprocket at DB Werk 40 in April 1945
Info in the above link will also answer the question of the sprocket.
A ‘big question’: Dunkelgelb – did it evolve?
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
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Posted: Friday, September 27, 2019 - 09:46 AM UTC
Quoted Text
That film looks kinda faded. I would suggest that it is Dunkelgelb and Olivegrun.
What you see is what it was. Gray Phosphate, not Dunkelgelb or Olivegrun. That footage was shot on 16mm Kodachrome movie film. Kodachrome is a very stable film and shows almost no color shift or fading, even after almost 80 years.
Biggles2
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Posted: Friday, September 27, 2019 - 11:01 AM UTC
Then if it is gray phosphate, why does it appear as two distinctly different colors/shades?
Headhunter506
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Posted: Friday, September 27, 2019 - 11:53 AM UTC
The video images from that link are darker than the original, which was shown on Spiegel TV years ago. That is not green, despite what you may think you see. Hulls wouldn't be painted while components are still being welded or attached. That was a waste of a strategic resource and the German war industry was fastidious in following Waffen Pru. 6 directives regarding paints and coatings.
On a side note, here is a d/l link for B.I.O.S Final Report No. 614 Welding Design & fabrication Of German Tank Hulls & Turrets
On a side note, here is a d/l link for B.I.O.S Final Report No. 614 Welding Design & fabrication Of German Tank Hulls & Turrets
Removed by original poster on 09/28/19 - 03:09:41 (GMT).
Headhunter506
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Posted: Friday, September 27, 2019 - 09:54 PM UTC
I neglected to mention that nine years ago, I had lengthy correspondence with Mirko Bayerl. Mirko is well known in the modeling and military history community for his expert knowledge of the Panther tank and as a military archeologist whose specialty is East Front combat. He has traveled extensively throughout Eastern Europe researching battles, locations and relics. During one such trip to Hungary, he had the opportunity to examine an interesting Panther G schurtzen panel. Here's what he observed:
Quoted Text
We met the guy with the schürzen and had a long time to investigate the plate. The colours was very well on still. The green was the lighter green and redbrown and creme yellow (?) more about Creme later...in another email
Now, How was now the paint applied ?
Well first we to to the camo side ( outerside). WE scraped off colours very carefully in layer after layer..with a surgery knife.
When we went through the colour...we came to a grey surface...we all said...ahaaa zink phosphat.!!!!..under the grey it was shiny steel. Now we turned the schürzen to the other side ( inner side)...What did we found there ? Well..just stone hard thin redprimer ( different colour than the redbrown)..very thin applied on but hard , very hard.
We were confused !!!! what in hell!!!
Now we went back to investigate the eventually base colour..green ? Redbrown ? Red Primer? or yellow?. The fact was ...there was NO base colour. Over the grey ( zinc?) they had sprayed areas of redbrown and after that - side by side - the green areas...no base colour in that matter. Over it all they sprayed yellow stripe.
Biggles2
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Posted: Saturday, September 28, 2019 - 02:50 AM UTC
A little off topic, but were the vehicles supplied to the troops, in bare primer, who then applied color, or were they factory painted? If a vehicle was to be left in primer color it would be zinc chromate gray (on the outside), and red oxide on internal surfaces such as shurtzen panels? And, of course, still Elfbein interiors?
Headhunter506
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Posted: Saturday, September 28, 2019 - 04:35 AM UTC
The zinc phosphate was not a primer. It was a corrosion inhibitor applied to steel sheets which were stored prior to delivery to end users. Primer was applied to interior and exterior surfaces after hull and turret construction was completed. As stated by Mirko, this particular schurtzen panel had red brown, Dunkelgelb and Olivegrun applied directly to the zinc phosphated outer surface, with no primer applied on that side. Primer was applied on the inner surface, though.
As of August '44, vehicles were painted in the prescribed camouflage colors at the respective factories prior to being issued.
Schurtzen were armored skirts attached along the exterior sides of certain tanks and tracked AFVs to provide additional protection because the side armor of these vehicles was thinner than what was used for the glacis plates.
For a short period in late '44, the use of Elfenbein as a coating for crew compartment surfaces above the sponsons was stopped due to a directive from Wa Pru 6 to conserve paint. This was later rescinded after complaints from the troops that the interior was too dark with just the oxidrot primer and Elfenbein was once again authorized.
As of August '44, vehicles were painted in the prescribed camouflage colors at the respective factories prior to being issued.
Schurtzen were armored skirts attached along the exterior sides of certain tanks and tracked AFVs to provide additional protection because the side armor of these vehicles was thinner than what was used for the glacis plates.
For a short period in late '44, the use of Elfenbein as a coating for crew compartment surfaces above the sponsons was stopped due to a directive from Wa Pru 6 to conserve paint. This was later rescinded after complaints from the troops that the interior was too dark with just the oxidrot primer and Elfenbein was once again authorized.
Scarred
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Posted: Saturday, September 28, 2019 - 05:02 AM UTC
Here's a vid that contains footage from the o.p.'s video. Start about the 10:00 mark and you will see even more of the bombed out factories but the big thing is the film isn't washed out as the first one. Brick buildings have a more realistic color and you can actually see rust as a reddish hue than muddy brown color. You can see hulls in red (most likely primer) and at 13:10 grey with bits of red. No green hulls. The first vid was probably a copy of a copy of a copy, processed many different times so it looks faded and lifeless compared to this and other copies I've found of this video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XQFWkCM9awM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XQFWkCM9awM
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Saturday, September 28, 2019 - 05:12 AM UTC
from 5:35 to 5:45 there is a neat example of the alternative fuels used directly after the war
Scarred
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Posted: Saturday, September 28, 2019 - 05:28 AM UTC
Quoted Text
from 5:35 to 5:45 there is a neat example of the alternative fuels used directly after the war
alright ya got me. I was just scanning all the films I could find look for the o.p. footage and completely missed that.
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
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Posted: Saturday, September 28, 2019 - 05:46 AM UTC
Thanks for posting that, Patrick. That was the film I was talking about. The colors in the Right Smith version are washed out and there's a definite color shift due to the poor quality of the copy compared to the original. No green.
marcb
Joined: March 25, 2006
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Posted: Saturday, September 28, 2019 - 06:27 AM UTC
Gents,
The Missing Links Axis forum is a good source of reputable info. It helps from coming to eronious conclusions just based on looking at pics. There is no proof of factories ever mixing paints to extend stocks, and thus coming up with new colors or shades.
Here's a usefull article on German tank camo, by Jentz and Doyle. They're known from the Panzer tracts books, and base their work solely on original documents:
http://www.missing-lynx.com/panzer_facts.htm
The part on a red primer basecoat with patches of green and yellow, has been changed in the meantime. It was based on a translation error.
While there was a dark yellow basecoat until september 44, after that the basecoat was all three colors (brown/ green/ yelllow) covering the whole of the vehicle together,applied at the factory in a variety of patterns. The last pattern consisted of just green and brown.
The zinc "primer" wouldn't have been visible on the finished tank, as it would have been covered by brown/ green/ yellow on the visible surfaces,and red primer on the non visible surfaces.
According to the Panther book by Mc Dougall and Block, all Panthers (and all afv's for that matter) were fully painted at the factory before delivery.
The Missing Links Axis forum is a good source of reputable info. It helps from coming to eronious conclusions just based on looking at pics. There is no proof of factories ever mixing paints to extend stocks, and thus coming up with new colors or shades.
Here's a usefull article on German tank camo, by Jentz and Doyle. They're known from the Panzer tracts books, and base their work solely on original documents:
http://www.missing-lynx.com/panzer_facts.htm
The part on a red primer basecoat with patches of green and yellow, has been changed in the meantime. It was based on a translation error.
While there was a dark yellow basecoat until september 44, after that the basecoat was all three colors (brown/ green/ yelllow) covering the whole of the vehicle together,applied at the factory in a variety of patterns. The last pattern consisted of just green and brown.
The zinc "primer" wouldn't have been visible on the finished tank, as it would have been covered by brown/ green/ yellow on the visible surfaces,and red primer on the non visible surfaces.
According to the Panther book by Mc Dougall and Block, all Panthers (and all afv's for that matter) were fully painted at the factory before delivery.
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, September 28, 2019 - 11:23 AM UTC
In the sixth paragraph of the Jentz and Doyle article it is stated that panzers left factories with half the zinc chromated surface covered with Rotbraun, Olivegrun, or Dunkelgelb. I would assume that to mean that two of the three colors each occupied half the surface, and NOT that half the surface was left in bare zinc chromate.
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
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Posted: Saturday, September 28, 2019 - 12:27 PM UTC
Tom Jentz was working on a book documenting RAL colors; unfortunately, it was never completed. Not disparaging Tom's work; but, recent research of the subject has rendered a lot of what he wrote about it outdated.
Here is a site to keep your eyes on:
Historycolors
Jens Mühlig is doing one helluva job documenting RAL/RLM/RKM colors.
He plans to publish the most comprehensive history of German military colors ever attempted.
Here is a site to keep your eyes on:
Historycolors
Jens Mühlig is doing one helluva job documenting RAL/RLM/RKM colors.
He plans to publish the most comprehensive history of German military colors ever attempted.
marcb
Joined: March 25, 2006
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Posted: Sunday, September 29, 2019 - 01:00 AM UTC
Quoted Text
In the sixth paragraph of the Jentz and Doyle article it is stated that panzers left factories with half the zinc chromated surface covered with Rotbraun, Olivegrun, or Dunkelgelb. I would assume that to mean that two of the three colors each occupied half the surface, and NOT that half the surface was left in bare zinc chromate.
Do you mean this paragraph?
"Following the order to drop Zimmerit in September 1944, Panzers left the assembly plants with a base coat of primer Rot RAL 8012 (dark red) with only about half of the surface covered with patches of Rotbraun, Olivgruen, or Dunklegelb."
It only mentions red oxid primer.
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